Policing Gender

LeftWriteFemme · 06-07-2015, 08:13 AM

Gender Identity In Halakhic Discourse

http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/...khic-discourse

imperfect_cupcake · 06-07-2015, 11:00 AM

Not with my friends. We take the living piss out of each other because that's the kind of humour we have and enjoy it. We also know none of us mean it even slightly. I am utterly against slut shaming but I often call my friends things like "where did the big slag go?" When lost in thought etc. I don't personally think that is slut shaming because we are all very proud and protective of our sexuality and very confident of its healthiness. We get the joke which is both a compliment and sarcastic (not meaning the words but the tone - nasty words, warm playful tone)

So if there has been any teasing, which I cannot think of off the top of my head, it's likely in the same manner. We call each other princess, slag, biggo slut, slut face, fairy dust, mc cunty, titsy, blow job queen/king, bitch, etc etc etc. I think the only ones that pertain to gender is princess and little lord Fauntleroy. We call each other those things if we think the other is being a bit too anal about something.

It's hard for people who don't have that kind of humour to understand we aren't policing each other in sex, homophobia, or mental health. We all have had very hard, rough lives. We are also deeply supportive of each other, live alternative lives that most people don't "get" and have to either constantly educate or walk away.

But I have been policed about my presentation for real outside my friends and it feels horrible rather than a warm and embrassing playful insult meant to compliment.
The "why can't you" statement from new partners, usually.
Why can't you just not shave your legs before we go out?? You are wearing jeans anyway.
Why can't you just go the way you are?
Why can't you just grab something and throw it on, no one cares?
Why can't you wear something more toned down when we go out. I am really sick of dealing with assholes.
Why can't you ....
- look less feminine and sexual because I'm uncomfortable with it even though I found it really attractive in the beginning but now that I'm actually aware of how much harassment you get on a daily basis I don't feel comfortable and I want you to change how you dress so I no longer have to feel bad about it or feel like I have to protect you. Also, how .ong it takes you to get ready gets on my nerves and I want you to wear "normal" (jeans and a tshirt) clothes so I don't have to wait. Cause my impatience is more important than your gender expression. Cause you aren't genderqueer so it doesn't matter.

Basically. Because my gender expression isn't as important as theirs. Because mine isn't "genderqueer" and therefore I can change mine without feeling horrible (really??) Because femmes don't queer their gender, we are just like straight girls. Gender wise we are basically the same as straight women. That's why using images of any ol kind of femininity off stock photos is representative of femme gender. Cause it's all the same, femininity. But Butch or masculine female gender is queered and thus deserves more attention, room and respect for being individual. So if they feel uncomfortable about my presentation, it's ok to ask me to change because it's bog standard and meaningless and not queered.

>

So yeah, that's gender policing and I go from happy to beyond WTF angry in under two seconds. And because I'm a big meany, I don't accept back paddling. Only discussion and understanding, not avoidance.

I run into difficult with people around my confrontative nature who have anxiety. Their passive back paddling enrages me even more because I feel they aren't owning or even discussing what I'm pointing out, just trying to appease. And nothing makes me more irritated than disingenuous appeasement. Or appeasement just for appeasement's sake. It's just throwing gas on whatever I'm upset about and trying to discuss. I find it overwhelmingly triggering.

So unfortuantely, I can't hang out with people who do that.

So gender policing, for me, usually comes from dates. I have heard "under all that girly you are actually a bigger Butch than I am!" But I *know* those people who have said it don't actually believe in gender stereotyping, even remotely and I can tease back that right stuff I don't remotely believe.
But that's not gender policing. I don't feel icky or boxed in or pushed.

Daisy Chain · 06-08-2015, 01:53 PM

imperfect_cupcake

Basically. Because my gender expression isn't as important as theirs. Because mine isn't "genderqueer" and therefore I can change mine without feeling horrible (really??) Because femmes don't queer their gender, we are just like straight girls. Gender wise we are basically the same as straight women. That's why using images of any ol kind of femininity off stock photos is representative of femme gender. Cause it's all the same, femininity. But Butch or masculine female gender is queered and thus deserves more attention, room and respect for being individual. So if they feel uncomfortable about my presentation, it's ok to ask me to change because it's bog standard and meaningless and not queered.

What a brilliant point, I had never given this thought but how very true and articulately put.

DC

DapperButch · 06-08-2015, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daisy Chain

imperfect_cupcake

Basically. Because my gender expression isn't as important as theirs. Because mine isn't "genderqueer" and therefore I can change mine without feeling horrible (really??) Because femmes don't queer their gender, we are just like straight girls. Gender wise we are basically the same as straight women. That's why using images of any ol kind of femininity off stock photos is representative of femme gender. Cause it's all the same, femininity. But Butch or masculine female gender is queered and thus deserves more attention, room and respect for being individual. So if they feel uncomfortable about my presentation, it's ok to ask me to change because it's bog standard and meaningless and not queered.

What a brilliant point, I had never given this thought but how very true and articulately put.

DC

I agree with Daisy. Great point, imperfect cc!

MsTinkerbelly · 06-08-2015, 05:46 PM

I was told one time that i wasn't a femme because the butch i was dating at the time didn't pak.

It was on another site, but it was a member of the LGBTQ community; sometimes i think we are worse to each other, than straight people are to us.

Martina asked how we respond...i didn't, maybe i should have...but what do you say to ignorance? I know who i am, and I'm good with it.

MsTinkerbelly · 06-08-2015, 05:58 PM

You know i was thinking....

I am quilty of thinking in terms I'm not proud of sometimes...maybe Gender conditioning?

We have a friend who started off life as "bob" (not real names) and came out to us as "barb" a year ago. She was dressed in what is more commonly " male" dress recently...dark work shirt, dark jeans, construction type steel toe boats, no make-up and hair pulled back in a ponytail. I found myself cringing, wondering if she realized how male she was presenting...but wtf, that is her business, and no matter what she wears who am i to judge? She was as female as she wanted to be, and her dress doesn't define her...

Lots to think about Martina, thank you!

Daisy Chain · 06-09-2015, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly

You know i was thinking....

I am quilty of thinking in terms I'm not proud of sometimes...maybe Gender conditioning?

We have a friend who started off life as "bob" (not real names) and came out to us as "barb" a year ago. She was dressed in what is more commonly " male" dress recently...dark work shirt, dark jeans, construction type steel toe boats, no make-up and hair pulled back in a ponytail. I found myself cringing, wondering if she realized how male she was presenting...but wtf, that is her business, and no matter what she wears who am i to judge? She was as female as she wanted to be, and her dress doesn't define her...

Lots to think about Martina, thank you!

I have to confess that I may of had that reaction as well.....heres a thought, I wonder if she was exploring her butch side ?

DC

JDeere · 06-08-2015, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly

I was told one time that i wasn't a femme because the butch i was dating at the time didn't pak.

It was on another site, but it was a member of the LGBTQ community; sometimes i think we are worse to each other, than straight people are to us.

Martina asked how we respond...i didn't, maybe i should have...but what do you say to ignorance? I know who i am, and I'm good with it.

I have gotten told I am not MAN enough because I am Pre-everything right now.
I don't get the whole arguing within the LGTBQI community!

Why police gender when it is not even anyone else's business, except maybe the partner you are and with and yourself!

Daisy Chain · 06-09-2015, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDeere

I have gotten told I am not MAN enough because I am Pre-everything right now.
I don't get the whole arguing within the LGTBQI community!

Why police gender when it is not even anyone else's business, except maybe the partner you are and with and yourself!

I`ve known more than a few BIO`s that were `post` everything and still not, nor ever would be, close to being `man` enough on many levels....

where as I`ve known female ID`d butches who had pretty much everything covered !

I dont get the arguing either.

DC

06-07-2015, 08:13 AM	#1
LeftWriteFemme Practically Lives Here How Do You Identify?: Daddy's good girl Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Jersey Posts: 16,642 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,529 Thanked 12,285 Times in 5,184 Posts Rep Power: 21474869	Gender Identity In Halakhic Discourse http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/...khic-discourse __________________ Clicking on these dragon eggs will take you to my new erotic novella: Dragon Bait .........Hope you enjoy it! ________________________________________________ Please take a look at my work Click on flashing smilie to see my website To look at my Daddy/girl erotica book Click on pompom girl to see Elbows on the Table, Palms Flat

06-07-2015, 11:00 AM	#2
imperfect_cupcake Senior Member How Do You Identify?: feminine dolly dyke Preferred Pronoun?: Your Grace Relationship Status: I put my own care first Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: In a gauze of mystery Posts: 1,776 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,426 Thanked 9,710 Times in 1,611 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	Not with my friends. We take the living piss out of each other because that's the kind of humour we have and enjoy it. We also know none of us mean it even slightly. I am utterly against slut shaming but I often call my friends things like "where did the big slag go?" When lost in thought etc. I don't personally think that is slut shaming because we are all very proud and protective of our sexuality and very confident of its healthiness. We get the joke which is both a compliment and sarcastic (not meaning the words but the tone - nasty words, warm playful tone) So if there has been any teasing, which I cannot think of off the top of my head, it's likely in the same manner. We call each other princess, slag, biggo slut, slut face, fairy dust, mc cunty, titsy, blow job queen/king, bitch, etc etc etc. I think the only ones that pertain to gender is princess and little lord Fauntleroy. We call each other those things if we think the other is being a bit too anal about something. It's hard for people who don't have that kind of humour to understand we aren't policing each other in sex, homophobia, or mental health. We all have had very hard, rough lives. We are also deeply supportive of each other, live alternative lives that most people don't "get" and have to either constantly educate or walk away. But I have been policed about my presentation for real outside my friends and it feels horrible rather than a warm and embrassing playful insult meant to compliment. The "why can't you" statement from new partners, usually. Why can't you just not shave your legs before we go out?? You are wearing jeans anyway. Why can't you just go the way you are? Why can't you just grab something and throw it on, no one cares? Why can't you wear something more toned down when we go out. I am really sick of dealing with assholes. Why can't you .... - look less feminine and sexual because I'm uncomfortable with it even though I found it really attractive in the beginning but now that I'm actually aware of how much harassment you get on a daily basis I don't feel comfortable and I want you to change how you dress so I no longer have to feel bad about it or feel like I have to protect you. Also, how .ong it takes you to get ready gets on my nerves and I want you to wear "normal" (jeans and a tshirt) clothes so I don't have to wait. Cause my impatience is more important than your gender expression. Cause you aren't genderqueer so it doesn't matter. Basically. Because my gender expression isn't as important as theirs. Because mine isn't "genderqueer" and therefore I can change mine without feeling horrible (really??) Because femmes don't queer their gender, we are just like straight girls. Gender wise we are basically the same as straight women. That's why using images of any ol kind of femininity off stock photos is representative of femme gender. Cause it's all the same, femininity. But Butch or masculine female gender is queered and thus deserves more attention, room and respect for being individual. So if they feel uncomfortable about my presentation, it's ok to ask me to change because it's bog standard and meaningless and not queered. > So yeah, that's gender policing and I go from happy to beyond WTF angry in under two seconds. And because I'm a big meany, I don't accept back paddling. Only discussion and understanding, not avoidance. I run into difficult with people around my confrontative nature who have anxiety. Their passive back paddling enrages me even more because I feel they aren't owning or even discussing what I'm pointing out, just trying to appease. And nothing makes me more irritated than disingenuous appeasement. Or appeasement just for appeasement's sake. It's just throwing gas on whatever I'm upset about and trying to discuss. I find it overwhelmingly triggering. So unfortuantely, I can't hang out with people who do that. So gender policing, for me, usually comes from dates. I have heard "under all that girly you are actually a bigger Butch than I am!" But I know those people who have said it don't actually believe in gender stereotyping, even remotely and I can tease back that right stuff I don't remotely believe. But that's not gender policing. I don't feel icky or boxed in or pushed. Last edited by imperfect_cupcake; 06-07-2015 at 11:11 AM.

06-08-2015, 01:53 PM	#3
Daisy Chain Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: she Relationship Status: Hy calls me Hys Kitten Join Date: May 2015 Location: 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning Posts: 729 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,814 Thanked 1,809 Times in 447 Posts Rep Power: 0	imperfect_cupcake Basically. Because my gender expression isn't as important as theirs. Because mine isn't "genderqueer" and therefore I can change mine without feeling horrible (really??) Because femmes don't queer their gender, we are just like straight girls. Gender wise we are basically the same as straight women. That's why using images of any ol kind of femininity off stock photos is representative of femme gender. Cause it's all the same, femininity. But Butch or masculine female gender is queered and thus deserves more attention, room and respect for being individual. So if they feel uncomfortable about my presentation, it's ok to ask me to change because it's bog standard and meaningless and not queered. What a brilliant point, I had never given this thought but how very true and articulately put. DC

06-08-2015, 05:46 PM	#5
MsTinkerbelly Timed Out - TOS Drama How Do You Identify?: ... Preferred Pronoun?: ... Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: ... Posts: 6,573 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 30,737 Thanked 22,895 Times in 5,017 Posts Rep Power: 0	I was told one time that i wasn't a femme because the butch i was dating at the time didn't pak. It was on another site, but it was a member of the LGBTQ community; sometimes i think we are worse to each other, than straight people are to us. Martina asked how we respond...i didn't, maybe i should have...but what do you say to ignorance? I know who i am, and I'm good with it.

06-08-2015, 05:58 PM	#6
MsTinkerbelly Timed Out - TOS Drama How Do You Identify?: ... Preferred Pronoun?: ... Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: ... Posts: 6,573 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 30,737 Thanked 22,895 Times in 5,017 Posts Rep Power: 0	You know i was thinking.... I am quilty of thinking in terms I'm not proud of sometimes...maybe Gender conditioning? We have a friend who started off life as "bob" (not real names) and came out to us as "barb" a year ago. She was dressed in what is more commonly " male" dress recently...dark work shirt, dark jeans, construction type steel toe boats, no make-up and hair pulled back in a ponytail. I found myself cringing, wondering if she realized how male she was presenting...but wtf, that is her business, and no matter what she wears who am i to judge? She was as female as she wanted to be, and her dress doesn't define her... Lots to think about Martina, thank you!