Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[I'mOneToo]

Originally Posted by katsarecool

I am from Georgia and the press gave this story lots of coverage. After charges were dropped by the victim the story died. So he was not tried and convicted big difference.

Ben's case has been widely reported (although from a biased standpoint) in the locality where his first alleged offense occurred. It is NOT a closed case.


7/21/2009 A woman waits a year to accuse him of rape *a year after the fact* and files a lawsuit against him: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/907219995

7/22/2009 The Douglas county sheriff counters saying they cannot investigate a lawsuit: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/907229996

7/23/2009 Big Ben says he did not commit rape (but, he also does not state that the encounter never occurred): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/907239998

8/1/2009 Ben turns the tables and accuses the supposed victim of wrongdoing: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/907319993

8/15/2009 Ben's attorneys want a change of venue to a more favorable county: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/908149980

8/18/2009 motion to dismiss a suit (doesn't state WHAT suit and there's no statement by the victim in the article, but her "best friend" and co-worker states it's baseless): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/908189997

8/20/2009 Ben's lawyers say they have proof the accuser is lying: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/908199996 - comment calls her "McNutty"

8/21/2009 Both sides claim extortion: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/908219977

9/8/2009 Accuser's attorney says they'll drop it if he admits to rape: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909089985

9/9/2009 Ben's lawyer refuses that offer: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909099995

9/10/2009 Victim's lawyer wants list of everyone Ben has bedded, and Ben's attorney calls his accuser "mentally unstable": http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909109995

9/14/2009 Ben's lawyer moves to have victim's statement struck: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909149992

9/16/2009 (third judge since the lawsuit began) Refuses favorable change of venue for Ben: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909169988

9/18/2009 Now Ben's lawyers say victim filed suit because she was trying not to get laid off: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909189998

9/30/2009 Judge denies motion to dismiss: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/909309995

10/4/2009 more mud slinging, and a new lawsuit: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/910059996

11/8/2009 Ben's first accuser quits her job: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/911089994

3/5/2010 FRESH ASSAULT ACCUSATIONS against Ben, new locale:http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100309877

3/8/2010 Ben's lawyers say it never happened (again): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100309833

3/9/2010 Second accuser's attorney asks for privacy: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100309787

3/10/2010 Off-duty officers say second alleged assault never happened: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100319993

3/23/2010 DNA request withdrawn in Georgia case: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100329939

4/9/2010 DA to decide whether or not to charge Ben in Georgia: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100409760

4/9/2010 NBC hasn't said if he's invited back to the ACC golf tournament next summer (golf tournament/scene of the crime): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100409763

4/12/2010 No charges against Ben in Georgia (one can only guess as to how that was decided): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100419962

4/15/2010 Goodell: Decision on Roethlisberger in near future (in NFL): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100419908

4/16/2010 Police ties to Ben (in Georgia) still questioned: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100419813

4/19/2010 Goodell: Roethlisberger violated NFL policy (with bad judgments): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100419753

4/21/2010 Trooper can't keep working for Ben: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...EWS/100429951\

4/21/2010 Ben suspended for six games for bad behavior: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100429953

4/23/2010 Goodell can INCREASE suspension if more bad behavior: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100429885

4/26/2010 Ben will not appeal suspension: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100429795

4/29/2010 Ben's police buddies under more scrutiny: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100429649

6/3/2010 Ben makes the best of his second chance (and makes no apologies): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100609880

9/3/2010 Ben's suspension REDUCED to four games (did not commit any alleged rapes for 4 months): http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/100909922

12/27/2010 More mud on the first accuser's face, from Caesar's: http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/art...NEWS/101229819

It is still an ongoing situation. The first suit has not been settled in any way. Ben's reduction of his suspension for "good behavior" (not being alleged of any rapes for four months) seems preposterous. His remorseless comments on the 3rd of June just six months ago speak for themselves. He's claimed that he's reformed and convinced the NFL commissioner, even if his legal case is not resolved, and even if he did not get a call from Obama welcoming him back to the NFL.

Apologies if any omissions or incomplete links, ain't the best cut 'n paster on earth.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Hey Waldo....

um.....no I don't find it uncomfortable.....I do have a sense of humor and I believe I inserted "laughin" in that thought to indicate the tone of the comment.

----------------
suebee (and others)............truly I get the idea that nothing will change your mind about Vick. I don't think you (and several other folks) actually 'grok' the inner city/rural culture that breeds dog fighting and/or cock fighting. Do you really think he should take a camera crew with him when goes to the 'hood to have those one on one conversations with those who still do this? If he did that, would you then say he is not sincere cuz he is just doing it for the publicity?
Would y'all be as outraged if he had been involved in cock fighting and not dog fighting............I'd bet the odds are greatly in favor of a resounding no...............

happy new year.......

(besides I need go and call my UConn friends and rub it in that Stanford destroyed the winning streak and spanked them the whole game......GO STANFORD!!!!)

Stanford, Schmanford. Bears STILL eat Cardinals! Go Bears!

Sorry, Toughy, family tradition couldn't be helped. (My sister went to Stanford, I went to Cal)

Cheers
Aj

[suebee]

[QUOTE=Toughy;256627]suebee (and others)............truly I get the idea that nothing will change your mind about Vick. I don't think you (and several other folks) actually 'grok' the inner city/rural culture that breeds dog fighting and/or cock fighting. Do you really think he should take a camera crew with him when goes to the 'hood to have those one on one conversations with those who still do this? If he did that, would you then say he is not sincere cuz he is just doing it for the publicity?

Would y'all be as outraged if he had been involved in cock fighting and not dog fighting............I'd bet the odds are greatly in favor of a resounding no...............
QUOTE]SIZE][/FONT][/I][/B]

You can get whatever idea you want Toughy. I'm sure there is a big list of what other people would never consider forgivable. Your idea isn't based on my words - if you read my words, that is. Everything you've said here is presumptuous, at best. Do you have anything to say about Vick, or just the other members who are posting?

[blush]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I'm very well aware that people can care about the abuse of animals and the abuse of women. I am one of them. Like I have already said people have brought up Vick time and time again- here and in the media. When do they ever talk about the systemic violence against women perpetuated by football players?

The Ben Roethlisberger incident just happened this year, yet most don't even seem to be familiar with it. He's one of the most famous figures in all of sports. He's also a white quarterback. Michael Vick is a black quarterback. They both play for sports teams in the State of Pennsylvania. Why is one getting so much air time and the other one doesn't? Because of Obama's phone call? Really I don't think so.

I don't know why I am supposed to take this to another thread. The over obsession of Vick has lots of racist tones to it which are being discussed here- quite appropriately. There's other big aspects to this story as well. Why are people so obsessed with one player who has been convicted and served his time?

Well, my lack of knowledge about both Ben and Michael Vick has more to do with my dislike of football than anything else.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Stanford, Schmanford. Bears STILL eat Cardinals! Go Bears!

Sorry, Toughy, family tradition couldn't be helped. (My sister went to Stanford, I went to Cal)

Cheers
Aj

laughing..............actually I'm a Baylor fan for the next couple of years............gotta love Griner.........so I agree.........laughin..........Go Bears!!

Originally posted by suebee
You can get whatever idea you want Toughy. I'm sure there is a big list of what other people would never consider forgivable. Your idea isn't based on my words - if you read my words, that is. Everything you've said here is presumptuous, at best. Do you have anything to say about Vick, or just the other members who are posting?

laughin............why the snark????? Obviously I read what you (and others) wrote and formed my opinion based on that. I also believe I did state my opinion about Vick. I also asked some questions for clarification and you didn't answer them...........soooooooooooooo.............I'm just saying without that clarification I am left with my stated opinion that you and some others don't see redemption for Vick under any circumstances.

-----------------------------------------------
(the above line means I am making a general comment here and not directing the comment to any specific person)

I also think unexamined racism is at play with Vick. There is no redemption for this black man, however several white men can get away with anything.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by blush

Well, my lack of knowledge about both Ben and Michael Vick has more to do with my dislike of football than anything else.

My point wasn't about taking anyone to task for not knowing. The Vick case has been much more widely publicized outside of sports circles.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by Toughy

laughin............why the snark????? Obviously I read what you (and others) wrote and formed my opinion based on that. I also believe I did state my opinion about Vick. I also asked some questions for clarification and you didn't answer them...........soooooooooooooo.............I'm just saying without that clarification I am left with my stated opinion that you and some others don't see redemption for Vick under any circumstances.

I've explained my position in great detail, and the only thing you have to say is that you get the "impression that.....". If you'd like to engage in a conversation with me I'd be glad to clarify. The only place where I've found any mention of Vick having any remorse about causing these animals pain and suffering was on the link that Aj sent me - and I addressed that. Do you have anything else to add?

[suebee]

I just came across this on my facebook page. It details some of what Vick did to the dogs. I don't have any words to describe my feelings about him anymore. Article from the S.F. Chronicle.

Here's something else I didn't know: Vick pled not guilty to the animal cruelty charges, which were later dropped in a plea bargain. Therefore none of the details of the abuse ever came out in court.

Again, I don't know what is in the man's heart now, but I find it hard to believe he's changed so radically in such a short time. Don't know what else to say.

Sue

[Martina]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ingrid..._b_803194.html

This kind of thing bothers me more -- because it's us -- the government, people in meetings making heartless decisions.

It doesn't matter what we think of Vick. i mean it might matter to you personally. It would matter if you were on his jury. But your lack of confidence in his ability to change is irrelevant. And it doesn't, in my opinion, give you the right to harrass him.

Strengthen the laws. That's worth doing. Harrassing Vick? Why? For publicity, to feel better? i don't get it.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by Martina

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ingrid..._b_803194.html

This kind of thing bothers me more -- because it's us -- the government, people in meetings making heartless decisions.

It doesn't matter what we think of Vick. i mean it might matter to you personally. It would matter if you were on his jury. But your lack of confidence in his ability to change is irrelevant. And it doesn't, in my opinion, give you the right to harrass him.

Strengthen the laws. That's worth doing. Harrassing Vick? Why? For publicity, to feel better? i don't get it.

I'm not sure who you're referring to when you talk about harassing Vick. I seriously doubt he comes on this site to read this thread. I think that in order for people to comprehend the magnitude of the problem of animal abuse, and realize that the laws do not adequately address it, they have to know some of the details. As is stated in the article I posted, Vick pled not guilty to animal cruelty, and those charges were later dropped in a plea bargain. He was convicted of bankrolling a dogfighting conspiracy. For those who are fond of saying he did his time - he did NOT - not for animal cruelty. And from what I read there isn't much else he could have done do to those animals.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by suebee

I'm not sure who you're referring to when you talk about harassing Vick. I seriously doubt he comes on this site to read this thread.

From the article you linked to --

His recent reception in the Bay Area was far cooler -- at last month's game between the Eagles and the Oakland Raiders, he was greeted with protestors, picket signs and a plane flying over the stadium with a banner reading "Dogfighter Go Home!"

[suebee]

Originally Posted by Martina

From the article you linked to --

Thanks for the clarification.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Martina

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ingrid..._b_803194.html

This kind of thing bothers me more -- because it's us -- the government, people in meetings making heartless decisions.

It doesn't matter what we think of Vick. i mean it might matter to you personally. It would matter if you were on his jury. But your lack of confidence in his ability to change is irrelevant. And it doesn't, in my opinion, give you the right to harrass him.

Strengthen the laws. That's worth doing. Harrassing Vick? Why? For publicity, to feel better? i don't get it.

This is what gave me that ickey feeling in this thread, the lynch mob mentality for this guy. I'm no fan, and I was torn when he did it cause I liked his skills, then he did what he did and I was like *great*. It's hard for us to see this, POC get this (I do at least) feeling of impending doom when we see our people in bad light, press, arrest reports. The media paints them in such a horrid light, they are convicted before they stand trial,. I don't know if you notice this when a POC does wrong, voices are altered it's more dramatized, a white man does something and voices are more sad, people seem shocked and have that sense of "wow not him, he's so homegrown or guy next door"

So when I read the responses I was wow, people are more angry that Obama called Vick than that idiots rants about Michael Vick dying for what he did. A white man calls for a black mans death and *silence* a bunch of people angrily ask he be killed, punished more, sadistic fantasies are confessed and no one is shocked or disgusted.

I don't get it, then again I do because no one calls for a white man's blood like they do that of a MOC.

AND THAT's what made this whole thread oogey and STILL does......


I hope he proves you all wrong, and that you all can see, sometimes POC fuck up, but yeah if given a chance some of us do change, I hope he is one of them, then again even then I don't think folks would be happy.
Gross.


P.S.

If any of you have not gone into the Racism thread in the Red Zone, you really really should, maybe then you would *get* why we feel this IS about...

Race...

Thank you for the dialogue.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

This is what gave me that ickey feeling in this thread, the lynch mob mentality for this guy. I'm no fan, and I was torn when he did it cause I liked his skills, then he did what he did and I was like *great*. It's hard for us to see this, POC get this (I do at least) feeling of impending doom when we see our people in bad light, press, arrest reports. The media paints them in such a horrid light, they are convicted before they stand trial,. I don't know if you notice this when a POC does wrong, voices are altered it's more dramatized, a white man does something and voices are more sad, people seem shocked and have that sense of "wow not him, he's so homegrown or guy next door"

So when I read the responses I was wow, people are more angry that Obama called Vick than that idiots rants about Michael Vick dying for what he did. A white man calls for a black mans death and *silence* a bunch of people angrily ask he be killed, punished more, sadistic fantasies are confessed and no one is shocked or disgusted.

I don't get it, then again I do because no one calls for a white man's blood like they do that of a MOC.

AND THAT's what made this whole thread oogey and STILL does......


I hope he proves you all wrong, and that you all can see, sometimes POC fuck up, but yeah if given a chance some of us do change, I hope he is one of them, then again even then I don't think folks would be happy.
Gross.


P.S.

If any of you have not gone into the Racism thread in the Red Zone, you really really should, maybe then you would *get* why we feel this IS about...

Race...

Thank you for the dialogue.

I can only speak for myself Snowy, and I've said that race is surely an issue. However, as a woman who is passionate about the welfare of animals what am I to do? NOT comment because he is a black man? It's certainly a rock and a hard place. He committed HORRENDOUS acts of cruelty. I'm at a loss as to what to say here.

[CrankyOldGuy]

you can download the book:

The Lost Dogs: Michael Vick's Dogs and Their Tale of Rescue and Redemption

[dreadgeek]

Snow;

A couple of things:

1) A white man calls for the death of a black man. In other breaking news, the surface of the Sun is hot. Just another day, so of course there is silence.

2) Part of why many POC face-palm whenever some person of color does something that makes headlines in a negative fashion is because we know--not think but know--that at some point we are going to be asked some question along the lines of "why do black people love dog fighting". In the eyes of the majority, Michael Vick--a man who is incidentally black--isn't guilty of animal cruelty. A black man--who is incidentally named Michael Vick--is guilty of animal cruelty and since blacks, particularly black men, are held to be something just this side of a wild beast a clear and strong message must be sent. So that other blacks--men and women--will know where the boundaries are.

You and I both know that this is how the game is played in this country.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

This is what gave me that ickey feeling in this thread, the lynch mob mentality for this guy. I'm no fan, and I was torn when he did it cause I liked his skills, then he did what he did and I was like *great*. It's hard for us to see this, POC get this (I do at least) feeling of impending doom when we see our people in bad light, press, arrest reports. The media paints them in such a horrid light, they are convicted before they stand trial,. I don't know if you notice this when a POC does wrong, voices are altered it's more dramatized, a white man does something and voices are more sad, people seem shocked and have that sense of "wow not him, he's so homegrown or guy next door"

So when I read the responses I was wow, people are more angry that Obama called Vick than that idiots rants about Michael Vick dying for what he did. A white man calls for a black mans death and *silence* a bunch of people angrily ask he be killed, punished more, sadistic fantasies are confessed and no one is shocked or disgusted.

I don't get it, then again I do because no one calls for a white man's blood like they do that of a MOC.

AND THAT's what made this whole thread oogey and STILL does......


I hope he proves you all wrong, and that you all can see, sometimes POC fuck up, but yeah if given a chance some of us do change, I hope he is one of them, then again even then I don't think folks would be happy.
Gross.


P.S.

If any of you have not gone into the Racism thread in the Red Zone, you really really should, maybe then you would *get* why we feel this IS about...

Race...

Thank you for the dialogue.

[suebee]

Best Friends permanently shelters a number of Michael Vicks' pit bulls. In his blog, Francis Battista, the co-founder of Best Friends addresses the topic of forgiving Michael Vick. He does a much better job than I have so far.

".....He could begin with an apology to the animals. He would acknowledge that he found within himself something horrific and frightening — something that he can’t explain, excuse or defend, something that no amount of jail time or loss of public stature can offset.

It’s much easier to forgive someone who can’t forgive himself.

Francis Battista

Co-Founder, Best Friends Animal Society"


Full blog entry can be found here.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Jesus Fucking Christ how many times does he have to apologize???

Should he go to EVERY dog owner's house???

[The_Lady_Snow]

He apologized here are some of his OWN words from his blog..

"What I did was horrendous. Awful. Inhumane. And I've no excuses for my actions. It makes my heart hurt now to think about what I've done. And I'm gonna be real honest, it took a while for me to get to this place. Sitting in a prison cell didn't make me feel remorse. It was meeting so many animal lovers, speaking with them and looking them in their eyes. Staring at them. Looking so deep into their eyes that I began to feel their pain. Allowing that pain to enter into my body is when I started to understand how bad it really was. I have been trying hard to connect with people who feel this pain,because for my whole life I was disconnected from the suffering of animals. And you might say, "come on Mike, how could you do those things to those dogs?" And you're right...I
ask myself those questions every day. What kind of person does this? How does a human-being treat dogs or any animal with such pain and cruelty? And the hard part for me is the answer to these questions. Because the answer is ME. And I am trying so hard right now to become a better person, because who I was, I am ashamed of."

[suebee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

He apologized here are some of his OWN words from his blog..

"What I did was horrendous. Awful. Inhumane. And I've no excuses for my actions. It makes my heart hurt now to think about what I've done. And I'm gonna be real honest, it took a while for me to get to this place. Sitting in a prison cell didn't make me feel remorse. It was meeting so many animal lovers, speaking with them and looking them in their eyes. Staring at them. Looking so deep into their eyes that I began to feel their pain. Allowing that pain to enter into my body is when I started to understand how bad it really was. I have been trying hard to connect with people who feel this pain,because for my whole life I was disconnected from the suffering of animals. And you might say, "come on Mike, how could you do those things to those dogs?" And you're right...I
ask myself those questions every day. What kind of person does this? How does a human-being treat dogs or any animal with such pain and cruelty? And the hard part for me is the answer to these questions. Because the answer is ME. And I am trying so hard right now to become a better person, because who I was, I am ashamed of."

THIS is what I've said several times that I had never seen - Vick "getting it".

And I agree that it's "Ickey" Snowy. But my ickey may not be your ickey. That doesn't mean either is more important or one or the other is wrong.