Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[The_Lady_Snow]

He apologized here are some of his OWN words from his blog..

"What I did was horrendous. Awful. Inhumane. And I've no excuses for my actions. It makes my heart hurt now to think about what I've done. And I'm gonna be real honest, it took a while for me to get to this place. Sitting in a prison cell didn't make me feel remorse. It was meeting so many animal lovers, speaking with them and looking them in their eyes. Staring at them. Looking so deep into their eyes that I began to feel their pain. Allowing that pain to enter into my body is when I started to understand how bad it really was. I have been trying hard to connect with people who feel this pain,because for my whole life I was disconnected from the suffering of animals. And you might say, "come on Mike, how could you do those things to those dogs?" And you're right...I
ask myself those questions every day. What kind of person does this? How does a human-being treat dogs or any animal with such pain and cruelty? And the hard part for me is the answer to these questions. Because the answer is ME. And I am trying so hard right now to become a better person, because who I was, I am ashamed of."

[suebee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

He apologized here are some of his OWN words from his blog..

"What I did was horrendous. Awful. Inhumane. And I've no excuses for my actions. It makes my heart hurt now to think about what I've done. And I'm gonna be real honest, it took a while for me to get to this place. Sitting in a prison cell didn't make me feel remorse. It was meeting so many animal lovers, speaking with them and looking them in their eyes. Staring at them. Looking so deep into their eyes that I began to feel their pain. Allowing that pain to enter into my body is when I started to understand how bad it really was. I have been trying hard to connect with people who feel this pain,because for my whole life I was disconnected from the suffering of animals. And you might say, "come on Mike, how could you do those things to those dogs?" And you're right...I
ask myself those questions every day. What kind of person does this? How does a human-being treat dogs or any animal with such pain and cruelty? And the hard part for me is the answer to these questions. Because the answer is ME. And I am trying so hard right now to become a better person, because who I was, I am ashamed of."

THIS is what I've said several times that I had never seen - Vick "getting it".

And I agree that it's "Ickey" Snowy. But my ickey may not be your ickey. That doesn't mean either is more important or one or the other is wrong.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by suebee

THIS is what I've said several times that I had never seen - Vick "getting it".

And I agree that it's "Ickey" Snowy. But my ickey may not be your ickey. That doesn't mean either is more important or one or the other is wrong.

*You* don't think Vick has gotten it, but in all honesty how do *you* know? like I said in my bolded post, he could prove ya'll wrong it ain't gonna matter, it's pretty fucking obvious cause a call for his death was voiced I don't see you having as much passion about it as you do an animal.

So yeah we aren't gonna agree.


Read his blog (I forgot to post it in my post)


http://globalgrind.com/channel/news/...what-ive-done/


Maybe then just maybe (I doubt it) you will be satisfied with his regrets.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

*You* don't think Vick has gotten it, but in all honesty how do *you* know? like I said in my bolded post, he could prove ya'll wrong it ain't gonna matter, it's pretty fucking obvious cause a call for his death was voiced I don't see you having as much passion about it as you do an animal.

So yeah we aren't gonna agree.


Read his blog (I forgot to post it in my post)


http://globalgrind.com/channel/news/...what-ive-done/


Maybe then just maybe (I doubt it) you will be satisfied with his regrets.

I have made no bones about my posts being MY opinions. I've repeatedly asked if anybody had seen him say anything that indicated that he really got it. I also asked you if I should ignore the matter BECAUSE he was a black man - no response to either.

As to whether or not I will be "satisfied" with his regrets.....you know nothing of me nor of my personal values - obviously.

Thanks for posting the link. I'll read it with interest.

Sue

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by suebee

I have made no bones about my posts being MY opinions. I've repeatedly asked if anybody had seen him say anything that indicated that he really got it. I also asked you if I should ignore the matter BECAUSE he was a black man - no response to either.

As to whether or not I will be "satisfied" with his regrets.....you know nothing of me nor of my personal values - obviously.

Thanks for posting the link. I'll read it with interest.

Sue

Tell you what I will answer your question when you answer ours..

What would be an a good enough punishment for Vick?

You seem to have skipped over that particular question as well, as for ignoring this I am not advocating his heinous crimes, but I sure damn well am not gonna sit here quietly and watch the grossness that has happened in this thread and if you say that grossness has not happened I will point each and everyone out.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Tell you what I will answer your question when you answer ours..

What would be an a good enough punishment for Vick?

You seem to have skipped over that particular question as well, as for ignoring this I am not advocating his heinous crimes, but I sure damn well am not gonna sit here quietly and watch the grossness that has happened in this thread and if you say that grossness has not happened I will point each and everyone out.

I've never spoken to the criminal punishment for several reasons: I don't believe it works, and for crimes such as animal abuse I don't think it comes close to changing something. There has to be a change in attitude - in core belief systems, before somebody gets it. I'm not judge or jury. I'd hate to be involved in the process because it's a system that is so far out of date, and continues because we as a society feel that we have to see something DONE. It's almost a moot point in my opinion, except some people actually NEED to be locked up for the protection of others.

Of course Vick was in prison for bankrolling dog fights, NOT animal abuse. But the fact that he never admitted to animal abuse during the trial process - and I read that the judge was actually harder on him because of his lack of apparent remorse - is easy to understand in that he grew up in that culture, and hadn't yet come to terms with the absolute horror of his actions.

I read the blog, and that's EXACTLY what *I* needed to hear from him. I asked several times if anybody had seen him apologize - thanks for finally posting it.

[blush]

Originally Posted by suebee

Of course Vick was in prison for bankrolling dog fights, NOT animal abuse. But the fact that he never admitted to animal abuse during the trial process - and I read that the judge was actually harder on him because of his lack of apparent remorse - is easy to understand in that he grew up in that culture, and hadn't yet come to terms with the absolute horror of his actions.

I read the blog, and that's EXACTLY what *I* needed to hear from him. I asked several times if anybody had seen him apologize - thanks for finally posting it.

You used the term "that culture?" Could you define "that culture?" I'm not sure what culture you're referring to, and I don't want to make assumptions.

[Julie]

I am feeling a bit quiet in my soul right now after reading Vick's blog.

When he was first charged with this, the outrage we all felt was great. Of course it was - what has been going on for a hundred plus years and something we have all known exists, was being brought into the light. We were faced with gruesome images of the atrocities these dogs faced. We had to look at ourselves and and even ask ourselves... Do we perpetuate crimes against animals?

Vick served his time. The president made a phone call and we all came in here to share our views on the subject. Some of us could be objective (though I cannot imagine how) and some of us wrote with deep emotions.

I am not a cynic. I never have been. I have always believed there is good in everybody. I have always believed people can change. It is what has gotten me through some of my darkest moments in my life. Perhaps some think, I live in a bubble. Perhaps I do.

This man (Vick) spoke about something none of us even thought of. His childhood - where he grew up - now, do not think for a moment I am making excuses for his actions, I am not. BUT - I have not lived in a neighborhood filled with guns and violence. I do not know what it is like as a little child to hear gun shots all night. I do not know. He spoke of being numb! How many of us have gone through parts of our lives, where we were numb? Where we did not feel any emotion?

Again, I am not making excuses for him. For me, it answers some questions - perhaps questions I should have been asking when all of this happened. What could possibly make a person do this? Again, no excuses for his behavior. But, we all know behavior comes from some place.

Some of us are stronger than others - Some of us will never go to these lengths. Some of us value life from the beginning of time. But some of us, well... Some of us have never experienced what he or others have experienced. What about the little boy who is sexually abused throughout his life by a pedophile, only to turn into a pedophile! Now, not all do - but some do and what about us as a society? Is it our responsibility as a society to help people?

Who helped Vick when he was a kid? Who is helping all those children out there who live and experience violence in their lives on a day to day basis?

Again... I am not making excuses for Vick's behavior - but again... It answers some of my questions.

I only hope and pray that Vick will as he says... Reach just ONE person by his own experience, and that person will reach one person and so on and so on. It is how we stop the madness.

Dog fighting has been going on for a long time. Perhaps, just perhaps - This man can make a difference.

Thank you for posting his blog. I am going to follow his journey.

And Sue... I disagree with the quote you posted.

It’s much easier to forgive someone who can’t forgive himself.

Francis Battista

Co-Founder, Best Friends Animal Society"

Because really... One must be able to forgive themselves, before they can expect the rest of the world to forgive them. To be able to forgive yourself for such an atrocity, to be able to dig so deep within your soul and honestly forgive yourself, only shows me that this person has done some deep soul searching. I hope Vick can and will forgive himself, because what he did and if he has in fact changed... That is one HUGE cross to bear for the rest of your life. And only a soul which has been cleansed of the bad, can do good in this world.

Julie

[dykeumentary]

Not meant to de-rail, but rather to talk about community recognition of punishment completed, and the different standards "we" seem to have about repentance/rehabilitation:

Paula Poundstone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Poundstone
"In 2001, Poundstone was arrested on a felony warrant for three counts of committing a lewd act on an unidentified girl under age 14. The Los Angeles County District Attorney's office also stated that Poundstone was charged with endangering two other unidentified girls and two boys.[11] Few details were released, but the prosecutor indicated that the charges were a result of an incident in which Poundstone was driving her children while intoxicated. She accepted a plea agreement and pleaded "no contest" to felony child endangerment and a misdemeanor charge of inflicting injury on a child. In exchange, the three charges of lewd conduct were dropped by prosecutors....
Since then she has used the incident—and the resulting publicity—as the source for some of her comedic material." (my bolds)

She's on a national tour right now. Are there protests? What would the community response look like if she wasn't white? She isn't apologizing, apparently she thinks its funny?

[Nat]

Cause see, my whole life has been numb. I was numb to the violence in my community...cause I saw it all the time, ever since I was a child. I mean, how does one grow up in a city that's nickname is Bad Newz? You can probably guess that from the jump, ya' know I've seen some bad things in my life.

But, what I didn't realize then, that I have begun to realize now, is that even though I had more money in my pocket, big cars and big houses, I was still numb. And when I say numb, I ain't talkin about not realizing the stuff that was going on around me, it was just like I was living life asleep.

Some of Vick's blog post sounds like PTSD to me.

from the National Center for PTSD article Criminal Behavior and PTSD:

Changes in feelings

■Distress: When reminded of a trauma, those with PTSD have high levels of distress. This is likely to affect their judgment and make them less able to use reason in their responses.

■Negative Feelings: Those with PTSD often have high levels of fear, worry, guilt, anger, shame, or depression. These unpleasant feelings may lead them to use drugs and alcohol in an attempt to feel better. Substance use and abuse can in turn cloud judgment and cause them to do things they might not normally do. Also, guilt may lead survivors to commit acts that will likely result in their being punished, injured or killed.

■Feeling Numb: At the same time, another class of PTSD symptoms, emotional numbing, may lead to wrongful or criminal behavior because the sufferer has:

■Less empathy or feeling sorry for the victim
■Trouble feeling remorse or guilt for their acts
■Trouble sensing how severe and grave their criminal act is, or what the results may be
Numbing could also lead some survivors to engage in "thrill-seeking" behaviors as they try to feel some type of emotion.

And the article - Criminal Behavior and PTSD: An Analysis

Research shows that higher rates of aggressive behavior are seen in those with PTSD, compared to those without PTSD. For example, the National Vietnam Veterans Readjustment Study found that male Veterans diagnosed with PTSD versus those without PTSD committed significantly more acts of violence against family and others. On average, those with PTSD committed 13.3 violent acts in the prior year, compared to 3.54 acts for Veterans without PTSD.

Other studies found that the prevalence of PTSD in prison inmates is higher than in the general population. It is important to note that any relationship between PTSD and crime could be correlational rather than causative. That is to say, a third factor could give rise to both PTSD and criminal behavior. Also, research findings on the relationship between PTSD and crime are variable due to methodological differences among studies.

Emotional numbness seems to be mostly associated with either depression or ptsd. Either way it sounds like he doesn't (or maybe didn't) have a whole lot of empathy - that he has more with people than with animals (which i think is generally true of most people) so if he truly feels regret now it's because he's been able to feel a bit of empathy for the other people who have feelings of empathy toward the dogs. If his trouble was a deficit of empathy, it seems people have a deficit of empathy toward him too.

With the shooting of Gabby Giffords, first people blamed, then people generally started looking at causes. With the shooter, people tend to talk about gun control or they tend to talk about the state of mental health assistance in this country. It's obvious that guy has something wrong with his head if you watch his youtubes. But I think white people have traditionally been more prone to jump toward a psychology-oriented conclusion about another white person. (Meaning white people tend to seek understanding when other white people commit crimes).

It's also a lot easier to to demonize Michael Vick because it's way easier to look at what he did and point the finger - than to look at what happened to that poor animal you yourself ate for dinner last night - whose lifetime probably contained even less joy and more suffering than some of those dogs.

I've noticed white people tend to like Hemingway (though maybe that's just the white people I know) despite his love affair with bullfighting and killing things.

'Nobody ever lives their life all the way up except bull-fighters.'
- Chapter 2, The Sun Also Rises, Ernest Hemingway

And Madonna seemed to advocate for bullfighting when this video was made:



(and by the way, this is a very sanitized version of what bullfighting entails). White people didn't call for her death after that video was made.

remember that cute little disney movie called "The Fox and the Hound"?



The reason they were destined to be pitted against each other was because the hound was going to grow up to hunt foxes. (A tradition originated in England).

In the US it's perfectly accepted to eat cow, chicken, lamb and pig - no matter what sufferings they endure before they end up on your plate. lobsters (cooked alive, mind you). Raw oysters are eaten alive and nobody bats an eye. There's a growing trend in the US for eating octopi and lobsters while they are still alive. Hunting is a huge "sport" here in the US. Few people have issues with horse-racing, but horse-racing also involves animal cruelty. Nobody called for Julia Roberts' death after she was seen at the races in the movie, "Pretty Woman."

Ever worn silk? Do you know where it comes from? Silk-worms make their little coccoons and settle down for a nice metamorphosis, and then people take the coccoons and heat them to death. Bugs are pretty fair game for most people though.

People failing to spay/neuter their pets is one of the primary reasons that most animal shelters cannot be no-kill shelters.

Hey, guess where dogfighting came from? Per NPR:

When the Romans invaded Britain in 43 A.D., both sides brought fighting dogs to the battlefield for the seven years of warfare that followed. The Romans may have won the war, but the British dazzled the victors with the ferocity of their dogs, which were far more battle-ready than their Roman counterparts.

Thus emerged a canine market of sorts. The Romans began to import British fighting dogs for use not only in times of war, but also for public amusement. In Rome's Colosseum, large audiences would gather to watch gladiator dogs pitted against other animals, such as wild elephants. The vicious dogs, thought to have been crossbred with the Romans' own fighting breed, were also exported to France, Spain and other parts of Europe, eventually finding their way back to Britain.

The Evolution of a Sport

By the 12th century, the practice of baiting — releasing fighting dogs into the ring with chained bulls and bears — had grown in popularity in England. For several centuries, baiting was considered a respectable form of entertainment among the English nobility. The practice, during which the dogs scratched and bit the bulls, was also used to tenderize meat for consumption. But by the early 19th century, the increasing scarcity and rising cost of bulls and bears, as well as growing concern about the issue of animal cruelty, damped the appeal of the sport. In 1835, the British Parliament outlawed all baiting activities. Following the law's passage, dog-on-dog combat emerged as the cheaper, legal alternative to baiting. Fighting dogs were crossbred with other breeds to create a fast, agile and vicious animal capable of brawling for hours at a time.

Anyway, animals are treated like shit in this world and I think it's extremely short-sighted to villify this one guy. It seems like a type of denial, a type of externalizing behavior.

Charlie Sheen can threaten his significant other with a knife, and he's still sitting pretty on 2 and a half men. White violence and black violence are not thought of or treated the same in the media or in the justice system in the US.

I think Vick says some really interesting things - instructive things - in his blog post.

Sitting in a prison cell didn't make me feel remorse. It was meeting so many animal lovers, speaking with them and looking them in their eyes. Staring at them. Looking so deep into their eyes that I began to feel their pain. Allowing that pain to enter into my body is when I started to understand how bad it really was.

It wasn't punishment, anger, revenge or shaming that helped Michael Vick feel anything about what he'd done. It was connection with people - it was people who took the time and who were brave enough to set aside talk of violence and revenge and instead sought that connection and understanding.

A while back now, there was a kid that made a gay-bashing game. Here, there was a thread about it. A few of us responded in anger. Diva had the presence of mind to reach out to the kid, who wrote back very politely and said he would remove the game. He had been fine with the angry comments on his game, but it was Diva's graciousness and respect, coupled with a genuine interest in his understanding the effects of his behavior, that caused him to change. Sounds like a similar phenomenon to me.

I know this post is kinda everywhere but hey so am I.

PS. Did I mention pate de foie gras?

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

He apologized here are some of his OWN words from his blog..

"What I did was horrendous. Awful. Inhumane. And I've no excuses for my actions. It makes my heart hurt now to think about what I've done. And I'm gonna be real honest, it took a while for me to get to this place. Sitting in a prison cell didn't make me feel remorse. It was meeting so many animal lovers, speaking with them and looking them in their eyes. Staring at them. Looking so deep into their eyes that I began to feel their pain. Allowing that pain to enter into my body is when I started to understand how bad it really was."

Thanks for posting this Lady Snow. There are some parts of this that really resonate with how I feel about dealing with people who have committed some criminal acts that we see as atrocious in our society. I've bolded the bit that really hit home to me. From that excerpt, it shows him saying that he learned more from educating himself on animal rights, changing his perspectives on animals and their ability to feel, and on rehabilitating himself, than from being directly punished for his actions.

I've noticed a few things with the way some here (both in this thread and others) talk about people who have been convicted of crimes, especially where violence is concerned. I feel that many continue to take an eye for an eye mentality, and the idea that people cannot change or that people don't commit crimes because of their own experiences. What many fail to understand is that an overwhelming number of crimes committed (and yes, many of them horrendously atrocious) are committed because of an individual's upbringing and social situation. This is why many of the people incarcerated for these acts are from marginalized communities; people who come from certain nations, certain neighbourhoods, certain economic backgrounds, who have suffered discrimination a good chunk of their life because of their race, nationality, sexual orientation, religion, gender identity etc. And we perpetuate the discriminatory laws, social practices and environments that often result in these crimes, by claiming that once these acts are committed, that those who committed them can't be rehabilitated, that they must be shunned perpetually, that they are by nature "monsters."

And yet there are countless examples of successful rehabilitation even among the most "atrocious" crimes. Institutions which take rehabilitation over punishment seriously, show very low numbers of repeated offense when compared to the punishment/banishing system.

If a person grew up in an environment where animals were not considered to have the capability to feel pain or despair, or where animals were not treated humanely, then it is no wonder that they continue the cycle of animal abuse. I remember talking to an acquaintance from Pakistan about his own experiences with animals as a kid, and where he partook in animal abuse. He had described an occasion where he and some friends had allowed a cat to drown by not letting it out of a body of water, and how they saw it as a sort of game to deter the cat from getting out of the water. He looks back on it as a really cruel thing to do and regrets its wholeheartedly, but back then he didn't see it that way, and it wasn't alarming to adult society, either. Does that make Pakistani society a society of "monsters" or "sociopaths" who should be punished by the "morally superior" western world? No. Because that is not how people see cats/animals in general where he grew up. He sees things differently now, and not for some racist reason of the west "bringing civility" or some similar bullshit, but because the original frame of reference has been widened and a greater understanding of the nature of animals and their capabilities occurred for him. As humans, we are extremely flexible and adaptable. We are forever learning new things, which utterly change our worldviews.

Many people who grow up in abusive or violent environments become abusive and violent themselves because they perceive it as a part of the currency of that environment. Does it mean everyone becomes that way? No. But many do. If we condemn people without giving them the opportunity to rehabilitate or educate themselves with information many of us take for granted, we will find ourselves continuing to overwhelmingly incarcerate people from marginalized backgrounds because of their backgrounds...which were, in turn, created by discriminatory social practices to begin with.

Does this mean the crime is "excused." No, that is fallacious thinking that assumes that in order for a person to "pay" for a crime they must suffer or be punished. But I don't think that does much good. Instead, what I'm saying means that people are convicted with the intent toward rehabilitation...not to punish them perpetually when they are entirely capable of change.

It's a horrible cycle that needs to end.