Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[Martina]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ingrid..._b_803194.html

This kind of thing bothers me more -- because it's us -- the government, people in meetings making heartless decisions.

It doesn't matter what we think of Vick. i mean it might matter to you personally. It would matter if you were on his jury. But your lack of confidence in his ability to change is irrelevant. And it doesn't, in my opinion, give you the right to harrass him.

Strengthen the laws. That's worth doing. Harrassing Vick? Why? For publicity, to feel better? i don't get it.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by Martina

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ingrid..._b_803194.html

This kind of thing bothers me more -- because it's us -- the government, people in meetings making heartless decisions.

It doesn't matter what we think of Vick. i mean it might matter to you personally. It would matter if you were on his jury. But your lack of confidence in his ability to change is irrelevant. And it doesn't, in my opinion, give you the right to harrass him.

Strengthen the laws. That's worth doing. Harrassing Vick? Why? For publicity, to feel better? i don't get it.

I'm not sure who you're referring to when you talk about harassing Vick. I seriously doubt he comes on this site to read this thread. I think that in order for people to comprehend the magnitude of the problem of animal abuse, and realize that the laws do not adequately address it, they have to know some of the details. As is stated in the article I posted, Vick pled not guilty to animal cruelty, and those charges were later dropped in a plea bargain. He was convicted of bankrolling a dogfighting conspiracy. For those who are fond of saying he did his time - he did NOT - not for animal cruelty. And from what I read there isn't much else he could have done do to those animals.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by suebee

I'm not sure who you're referring to when you talk about harassing Vick. I seriously doubt he comes on this site to read this thread.

From the article you linked to --

His recent reception in the Bay Area was far cooler -- at last month's game between the Eagles and the Oakland Raiders, he was greeted with protestors, picket signs and a plane flying over the stadium with a banner reading "Dogfighter Go Home!"

[suebee]

Originally Posted by Martina

From the article you linked to --

Thanks for the clarification.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Martina

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ingrid..._b_803194.html

This kind of thing bothers me more -- because it's us -- the government, people in meetings making heartless decisions.

It doesn't matter what we think of Vick. i mean it might matter to you personally. It would matter if you were on his jury. But your lack of confidence in his ability to change is irrelevant. And it doesn't, in my opinion, give you the right to harrass him.

Strengthen the laws. That's worth doing. Harrassing Vick? Why? For publicity, to feel better? i don't get it.

This is what gave me that ickey feeling in this thread, the lynch mob mentality for this guy. I'm no fan, and I was torn when he did it cause I liked his skills, then he did what he did and I was like *great*. It's hard for us to see this, POC get this (I do at least) feeling of impending doom when we see our people in bad light, press, arrest reports. The media paints them in such a horrid light, they are convicted before they stand trial,. I don't know if you notice this when a POC does wrong, voices are altered it's more dramatized, a white man does something and voices are more sad, people seem shocked and have that sense of "wow not him, he's so homegrown or guy next door"

So when I read the responses I was wow, people are more angry that Obama called Vick than that idiots rants about Michael Vick dying for what he did. A white man calls for a black mans death and *silence* a bunch of people angrily ask he be killed, punished more, sadistic fantasies are confessed and no one is shocked or disgusted.

I don't get it, then again I do because no one calls for a white man's blood like they do that of a MOC.

AND THAT's what made this whole thread oogey and STILL does......


I hope he proves you all wrong, and that you all can see, sometimes POC fuck up, but yeah if given a chance some of us do change, I hope he is one of them, then again even then I don't think folks would be happy.
Gross.


P.S.

If any of you have not gone into the Racism thread in the Red Zone, you really really should, maybe then you would *get* why we feel this IS about...

Race...

Thank you for the dialogue.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

This is what gave me that ickey feeling in this thread, the lynch mob mentality for this guy. I'm no fan, and I was torn when he did it cause I liked his skills, then he did what he did and I was like *great*. It's hard for us to see this, POC get this (I do at least) feeling of impending doom when we see our people in bad light, press, arrest reports. The media paints them in such a horrid light, they are convicted before they stand trial,. I don't know if you notice this when a POC does wrong, voices are altered it's more dramatized, a white man does something and voices are more sad, people seem shocked and have that sense of "wow not him, he's so homegrown or guy next door"

So when I read the responses I was wow, people are more angry that Obama called Vick than that idiots rants about Michael Vick dying for what he did. A white man calls for a black mans death and *silence* a bunch of people angrily ask he be killed, punished more, sadistic fantasies are confessed and no one is shocked or disgusted.

I don't get it, then again I do because no one calls for a white man's blood like they do that of a MOC.

AND THAT's what made this whole thread oogey and STILL does......


I hope he proves you all wrong, and that you all can see, sometimes POC fuck up, but yeah if given a chance some of us do change, I hope he is one of them, then again even then I don't think folks would be happy.
Gross.


P.S.

If any of you have not gone into the Racism thread in the Red Zone, you really really should, maybe then you would *get* why we feel this IS about...

Race...

Thank you for the dialogue.

I can only speak for myself Snowy, and I've said that race is surely an issue. However, as a woman who is passionate about the welfare of animals what am I to do? NOT comment because he is a black man? It's certainly a rock and a hard place. He committed HORRENDOUS acts of cruelty. I'm at a loss as to what to say here.

[CrankyOldGuy]

you can download the book:

The Lost Dogs: Michael Vick's Dogs and Their Tale of Rescue and Redemption

[dreadgeek]

Snow;

A couple of things:

1) A white man calls for the death of a black man. In other breaking news, the surface of the Sun is hot. Just another day, so of course there is silence.

2) Part of why many POC face-palm whenever some person of color does something that makes headlines in a negative fashion is because we know--not think but know--that at some point we are going to be asked some question along the lines of "why do black people love dog fighting". In the eyes of the majority, Michael Vick--a man who is incidentally black--isn't guilty of animal cruelty. A black man--who is incidentally named Michael Vick--is guilty of animal cruelty and since blacks, particularly black men, are held to be something just this side of a wild beast a clear and strong message must be sent. So that other blacks--men and women--will know where the boundaries are.

You and I both know that this is how the game is played in this country.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

This is what gave me that ickey feeling in this thread, the lynch mob mentality for this guy. I'm no fan, and I was torn when he did it cause I liked his skills, then he did what he did and I was like *great*. It's hard for us to see this, POC get this (I do at least) feeling of impending doom when we see our people in bad light, press, arrest reports. The media paints them in such a horrid light, they are convicted before they stand trial,. I don't know if you notice this when a POC does wrong, voices are altered it's more dramatized, a white man does something and voices are more sad, people seem shocked and have that sense of "wow not him, he's so homegrown or guy next door"

So when I read the responses I was wow, people are more angry that Obama called Vick than that idiots rants about Michael Vick dying for what he did. A white man calls for a black mans death and *silence* a bunch of people angrily ask he be killed, punished more, sadistic fantasies are confessed and no one is shocked or disgusted.

I don't get it, then again I do because no one calls for a white man's blood like they do that of a MOC.

AND THAT's what made this whole thread oogey and STILL does......


I hope he proves you all wrong, and that you all can see, sometimes POC fuck up, but yeah if given a chance some of us do change, I hope he is one of them, then again even then I don't think folks would be happy.
Gross.


P.S.

If any of you have not gone into the Racism thread in the Red Zone, you really really should, maybe then you would *get* why we feel this IS about...

Race...

Thank you for the dialogue.

[suebee]

Best Friends permanently shelters a number of Michael Vicks' pit bulls. In his blog, Francis Battista, the co-founder of Best Friends addresses the topic of forgiving Michael Vick. He does a much better job than I have so far.

".....He could begin with an apology to the animals. He would acknowledge that he found within himself something horrific and frightening — something that he can’t explain, excuse or defend, something that no amount of jail time or loss of public stature can offset.

It’s much easier to forgive someone who can’t forgive himself.

Francis Battista

Co-Founder, Best Friends Animal Society"


Full blog entry can be found here.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Jesus Fucking Christ how many times does he have to apologize???

Should he go to EVERY dog owner's house???

[The_Lady_Snow]

He apologized here are some of his OWN words from his blog..

"What I did was horrendous. Awful. Inhumane. And I've no excuses for my actions. It makes my heart hurt now to think about what I've done. And I'm gonna be real honest, it took a while for me to get to this place. Sitting in a prison cell didn't make me feel remorse. It was meeting so many animal lovers, speaking with them and looking them in their eyes. Staring at them. Looking so deep into their eyes that I began to feel their pain. Allowing that pain to enter into my body is when I started to understand how bad it really was. I have been trying hard to connect with people who feel this pain,because for my whole life I was disconnected from the suffering of animals. And you might say, "come on Mike, how could you do those things to those dogs?" And you're right...I
ask myself those questions every day. What kind of person does this? How does a human-being treat dogs or any animal with such pain and cruelty? And the hard part for me is the answer to these questions. Because the answer is ME. And I am trying so hard right now to become a better person, because who I was, I am ashamed of."

[suebee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

He apologized here are some of his OWN words from his blog..

"What I did was horrendous. Awful. Inhumane. And I've no excuses for my actions. It makes my heart hurt now to think about what I've done. And I'm gonna be real honest, it took a while for me to get to this place. Sitting in a prison cell didn't make me feel remorse. It was meeting so many animal lovers, speaking with them and looking them in their eyes. Staring at them. Looking so deep into their eyes that I began to feel their pain. Allowing that pain to enter into my body is when I started to understand how bad it really was. I have been trying hard to connect with people who feel this pain,because for my whole life I was disconnected from the suffering of animals. And you might say, "come on Mike, how could you do those things to those dogs?" And you're right...I
ask myself those questions every day. What kind of person does this? How does a human-being treat dogs or any animal with such pain and cruelty? And the hard part for me is the answer to these questions. Because the answer is ME. And I am trying so hard right now to become a better person, because who I was, I am ashamed of."

THIS is what I've said several times that I had never seen - Vick "getting it".

And I agree that it's "Ickey" Snowy. But my ickey may not be your ickey. That doesn't mean either is more important or one or the other is wrong.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

He apologized here are some of his OWN words from his blog..

"What I did was horrendous. Awful. Inhumane. And I've no excuses for my actions. It makes my heart hurt now to think about what I've done. And I'm gonna be real honest, it took a while for me to get to this place. Sitting in a prison cell didn't make me feel remorse. It was meeting so many animal lovers, speaking with them and looking them in their eyes. Staring at them. Looking so deep into their eyes that I began to feel their pain. Allowing that pain to enter into my body is when I started to understand how bad it really was."

Thanks for posting this Lady Snow. There are some parts of this that really resonate with how I feel about dealing with people who have committed some criminal acts that we see as atrocious in our society. I've bolded the bit that really hit home to me. From that excerpt, it shows him saying that he learned more from educating himself on animal rights, changing his perspectives on animals and their ability to feel, and on rehabilitating himself, than from being directly punished for his actions.

I've noticed a few things with the way some here (both in this thread and others) talk about people who have been convicted of crimes, especially where violence is concerned. I feel that many continue to take an eye for an eye mentality, and the idea that people cannot change or that people don't commit crimes because of their own experiences. What many fail to understand is that an overwhelming number of crimes committed (and yes, many of them horrendously atrocious) are committed because of an individual's upbringing and social situation. This is why many of the people incarcerated for these acts are from marginalized communities; people who come from certain nations, certain neighbourhoods, certain economic backgrounds, who have suffered discrimination a good chunk of their life because of their race, nationality, sexual orientation, religion, gender identity etc. And we perpetuate the discriminatory laws, social practices and environments that often result in these crimes, by claiming that once these acts are committed, that those who committed them can't be rehabilitated, that they must be shunned perpetually, that they are by nature "monsters."

And yet there are countless examples of successful rehabilitation even among the most "atrocious" crimes. Institutions which take rehabilitation over punishment seriously, show very low numbers of repeated offense when compared to the punishment/banishing system.

If a person grew up in an environment where animals were not considered to have the capability to feel pain or despair, or where animals were not treated humanely, then it is no wonder that they continue the cycle of animal abuse. I remember talking to an acquaintance from Pakistan about his own experiences with animals as a kid, and where he partook in animal abuse. He had described an occasion where he and some friends had allowed a cat to drown by not letting it out of a body of water, and how they saw it as a sort of game to deter the cat from getting out of the water. He looks back on it as a really cruel thing to do and regrets its wholeheartedly, but back then he didn't see it that way, and it wasn't alarming to adult society, either. Does that make Pakistani society a society of "monsters" or "sociopaths" who should be punished by the "morally superior" western world? No. Because that is not how people see cats/animals in general where he grew up. He sees things differently now, and not for some racist reason of the west "bringing civility" or some similar bullshit, but because the original frame of reference has been widened and a greater understanding of the nature of animals and their capabilities occurred for him. As humans, we are extremely flexible and adaptable. We are forever learning new things, which utterly change our worldviews.

Many people who grow up in abusive or violent environments become abusive and violent themselves because they perceive it as a part of the currency of that environment. Does it mean everyone becomes that way? No. But many do. If we condemn people without giving them the opportunity to rehabilitate or educate themselves with information many of us take for granted, we will find ourselves continuing to overwhelmingly incarcerate people from marginalized backgrounds because of their backgrounds...which were, in turn, created by discriminatory social practices to begin with.

Does this mean the crime is "excused." No, that is fallacious thinking that assumes that in order for a person to "pay" for a crime they must suffer or be punished. But I don't think that does much good. Instead, what I'm saying means that people are convicted with the intent toward rehabilitation...not to punish them perpetually when they are entirely capable of change.

It's a horrible cycle that needs to end.