About Butches Q & A

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Tcountry

What femme look(and attitude) most attracts you?

Every woman has an essence that is uniquely her own. It is this essence of who she is that will hold my attention. Describing it is difficult. The girl next door look is a plus. A quiet confidence, inquisitive mind, a ready smile, sensual body language, good sense of humor, a heart felt laugh, a sexy voice, a good companion, peaceful demeanor all add to the allure. But words are seldom adequate to describe something that is as instinctual as attraction.

[Glenn]

Originally Posted by Tcountry

What femme look(and attitude) most attracts you?

Big Bad Bold Beautiful lil babygirls.

[Soft*Silver]

I love to listen to your attraction to femmes

I love to hear that who we are do not go unappreciated

I love to know the yearning for women like us is out there

thank you, dear butches, thank you...

[Rockinonahigh]

Originally Posted by Tcountry

What femme look(and attitude) most attracts you?

OHHH ahemmmm yes,the look/attitude can change over time but the essence of who she is and she knows it shows.The walk of, im woman hear me roar ...but then I can be such a kitten too...yeah to hot to handle works for me...most of the time.

[rlin]

Originally Posted by Tcountry

What femme look(and attitude) most attracts you?

i think i fall with the status quo for this group... (and... i can tell ya... that damned sure doesnt happen often...)
the essence of woman to me is what does it...
for a femme to know she is a femme... for her to celebrate her femininity... whatever that means to her... however it manifests...
and i am hooked... throw in a little bit of extroversion and a little bit of a wonderful subby nature...

my my my...
yes...
that is what i want...

[swagger]

Originally Posted by Tcountry

What femme look(and attitude) most attracts you?

A feminist femme, a strong woman and a kind one. I look (hard) at legs, ass, hands, eyes - probably in that order. Straight, dark hair that falls like a raven's wing into a bob does it for me in a major way. Compassionate and humorous eyes and a smile like a sunrise.

[LipstickLola]

Question for you all, does a 'strong' woman, femme in type turn you off?
I'm asking because of something I'm trying to figure out from the past, yeah, I should let it go, but? I'd really like to know if that is a negative to butch women. I'd not change one iota, (am a softy really) but I am what I am, so? just asking

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Tcountry

What femme look(and attitude) most attracts you?

How one carries themselves has always been at the heart of attraction for me. Mainly, the self-comfort with that carriage of the woman is what interests me.

I have been attracted to femmes that are all over the charts in terms of what I think I understand about this look you speak of. I also can be attracted to non-femme identified women. Mainly, I don't do the labelling of others, including femmes. I listen to how that individual identifies herself.

[swagger]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I would like to know from other butches, how you view the B-F dynamic in terms of how and why you were initially drawn to it. Is it mostly about attraction to femmes for you- or does it run deeper in terms of your butch identity? Maybe you have an attachment to butch historically (going back to what defined butch years ago), within a class, ethnic or racial perspective... or not?

excuse me for being late in this thread, but i like the question ...

i think i was butch way before the butch-femme dynamic even occurred to me. tomboy kid .. i was always mistaken for a boy. i had a short phase of conforming to some femme archetypes and then sort of naturally slid back into just being me. i've always preferred a "masculine" style of dress and in fact, having also grown up with rather a feminist approach, by nature and nurture, it never occurred to me that my biological sex meant i had to conform to what society defines as my gender. i'm not comfortable with either "masculine" or "feminine" as words, never mind labels.

i dated bois and i dated wannabe butches, as well as "feminine" women. i dated a few people who defined themselves as femme. it fit way better. it just felt right - as long as they weren't into un-feminist stereotypes too much ... and i try hard not to act in a "chauvinist" way myself, even under the guise of irony.

so for me butch is about ...

• style
• walking on the right hand side of her in the way of chivalry i.e. to keep your sword arm free in case you have to protect her (what complete bollocks, but i find myself doing it anyway)
• feeling like the top even when i'm on the bottom (dang, that's not a butch thing either is it?)
• lol and it's back to style ... the way i dress, walk, talk ... the way i present myself to the world and the way that the world perceives me.

... and i worship my feminist femme lover - and unlike friendships, a lot of the things i worship about her, are things that are very different to me.

[Soft*Silver]

I have found my share of local butches but none of them are what I am seeking. The older I get and the more responsible and mature I am about the decision I make regarding dating and partnerships, the narrower my field of dating potentials become. I turn to the internet for good conversation and companionship but again, the older I get the more I am resolved not to leave home again..my family is here and I own my own home. I have had enough non successful long distance relationships to know I am unwilling to make that leap of faith again for a butch or FtM. Someone would have to come to me or by god, prove to me that for once, I dont have more to lose than they do. That was the problem in the past. The ones I moved to, could have their old lives back when we didnt work out. I had to recreate mine all over again. And last time, I almost wasnt able to. I had lost so much over a course of a decade that I couldnt lose not one more thing and not end up homeless. Its simply not going to happen again. I am capable of a relationship, just not willing to be so disposible to anyone ever again...forever hasnt meant to others what it meant to me...

So...I am contently single in Ohio. I have my share of admirers online and locally but too damn scared or too narrow in my expectations for one human being to fit the bill. He would have to be someone pretty damned magically real to catch me.

We femmes are out here...

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by softness

I have found my share of local butches but none of them are what I am seeking. The older I get and the more responsible and mature I am about the decision I make regarding dating and partnerships, the narrower my field of dating potentials become. I turn to the internet for good conversation and companionship but again, the older I get the more I am resolved not to leave home again..my family is here and I own my own home. I have had enough non successful long distance relationships to know I am unwilling to make that leap of faith again for a butch or FtM. Someone would have to come to me or by god, prove to me that for once, I dont have more to lose than they do. That was the problem in the past. The ones I moved to, could have their old lives back when we didnt work out. I had to recreate mine all over again. And last time, I almost wasnt able to. I had lost so much over a course of a decade that I couldnt lose not one more thing and not end up homeless. Its simply not going to happen again. I am capable of a relationship, just not willing to be so disposible to anyone ever again...forever hasnt meant to others what it meant to me...

So...I am contently single in Ohio. I have my share of admirers online and locally but too damn scared or too narrow in my expectations for one human being to fit the bill. He would have to be someone pretty damned magically real to catch me.

We femmes are out here...

You say so many things here that fit for many mature butches, like me. My home is important to me and although my family isn't that close in location, it isn't all that far, either. I am not willing to just uproot and move and not willing to do a long distance relationship, either. I wouldn't ask someone to do what I choose not too or cannot do. I have pets, too and I love my yard and gardens. I'm not going to take long trips elsewhere and leave my home and to expect the other person to most of the travel isn't fair.

Now, I do live where there is a large queer population, but, my age and list of "non-negotiables" have very much influenced my not partnering with someone again. The possibilities have been out (many femmes are near) there and I appreciate this fact, but, I have not dated anyone that is a good fit for me. Also, the B-F community here has a pretty high rate of poly and leather femmes. Neither of those are what I seek. Both work well for many people and I applaud them. I certainly have some good friendships with people that practice both and that is a good thing.

I have met femmes from the Planet (and dash site) at events and of course, I have met some I was attracted to and just really thought were great and wondered if I would hit it off with them if given the opportunity. However, femmes in my age group (and I am not interested in being with someone a lot younger or older than myself) also have careers, family and friends where they live and like you, are not going to just jump into anything.

Due to arthritis, I have been considering moving to a dryer climate and even doing some extended road travel to check out areas, But, this is strictly about my finding out if I like another geographic area that might be easier on my joints. It is not to pursue a relationship.

I have been fortunate in my lifetime to have known what a positive long term relationship is like and have to be honest, i wouldn't settle for anything less. I'd rather remain single. if someone comes into my life again and both of our sets of needs and wants match and we live close enough to not cause undue difficulty, then i would probably welcome her into my life.

I do enjoy some dating, but, I also have close friends that like to do the things that i enjoy and friends are important to me. sure, I miss the kind of intimacy one shares with a partner and of course I can feel lonely at times. Yet, i have a full life and one I am grateful for. Plus, I totally love retirement. Although, the recession has had an effect on this and has put limits on me. But, all will work out eventually.

So much of this is about natural life passages….. And cycles…[/COLOR]

[Soft*Silver]

I too have, ALH, I have experienced a wonderful loving long term relationship and will not settle for less. I want to be precious to someone, not just a trial and error. Living with someone used to be a sign of committment. Moving in with someone you have an LDR with, seems to be just the next step and not necessarily a committment. Committment seems to be the next step. I dont want it to be the next step. I want it to be committment. Maybe if I find someone who sees it as such, my choice to remain single might change.

I personally would just like to date. Go to movies. Have dinner. Stay in and watch a favorite tv show together. Go to museums. Attend an outdoor symphony. Go to a pumpkin festival. Those are the things i would like to do with someone. You cant with an LDR. And the cost of air faire makes this most prohibitive on any budget. I think I would fall over if a butch/transman would say they were flying up to take me to a punkin festival. I swear to god I would swoon like a teenager...but in our age bracket, like you said, probably just not going to happen...

[CherylNYC]

Great thread, ALH. I have two questions for the butches. Several of the previous butch posters mentioned feeling somehow inadequate. It sounds as if many butches feel like there's a standard that defines what it means to be butch, and they feel they don't live up to it.

I certainly have those feelings as a femme. I can clean up and dress up pretty well, but my everyday look, as well as my passions and work life, are not at all congruent with feminine standards of dress and behaviour. Feminine standards are broadcast from every billboard. We all know what they are, and I know that in many ways I don't fit them. Most of the time I don't give a rat's ass, and as a feminist I applaud myself for breaking stereotypes on a daily basis. BUT, in my less confident moments I can still be made to feel insecure in my femme ID. Every movie, every commercial and every magazine holds up some impossible ideal of what a feminine woman is supposed to look/act/be like. I know it's a bunch of photoshopped crap designed to sell us products we don't need, but some of it sinks in anyway. Even for me.

There are no TV ads that tell us how a butch is supposed to look and behave, (Thank the Goddess!). So where does the butch standard come from, and how does it happen that butches feel like they are inadequate to it? I'm guessing that even for the most feminist butch, some of that standard is probably based upon expectations of how a man should act. I hope there's a lot more to it than that. Do/did you have role models? Was/is there someone in your life who told/tells you that you aren't butch enough? (I confess to a very unfeminine urge to kick the ass of anyone who would do that, by the way.)

My second question is a related pet peeve. I have a feminist outlook born in the 1970s. Back then all the smart, feminist girls paid their own way on a date. What happened? How on earth has it become expected that the butch pays for the date? It makes no sense to me. Who would have imagined that I would have to re-establish those ground rules as a middle aged woman dating butch women? Is there a reasonable explanation? Please help me out with this.

[Tcountry]

I am not sure there is a single standard...nor exactly where it would come from. We all have our own ideas of how 'a' butch should act, dress, etc...but the good part about our ideas is they are all different & unique to each of us. I would venture to guess that not any two butches you will ever meet will be the same. My dad's joke is "we can't all be the same...cause if we were we would all chase ur mother & she wouldn't like that"...lol
So I guess my own ideals are from my father & grandfathers...as well as setting an example for the younger generations. And it is mostly just about being genuine & respectful. I don't have the feeling of not living up to that standard tho...so maybe not the best one to answer that question.

The dinner question...*sweet smile* my opinion...
I love to pay for dinner. I want to just have a great time with my dinner guest(s) & put it all on one check & not have the "how do we split up the appetizers" talk...lol most of the time it was my idea to go out or where to go anyway...so why not just let me pay for it?
My fiancee will attest to the fact that I would rather go out again & let someone else pay next time than split the check each time. (and even then I get the urge to pay, but am getting better about it) lol

[Skittlesluver]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Great thread, ALH. I have two questions for the butches. Several of the previous butch posters mentioned feeling somehow inadequate. It sounds as if many butches feel like there's a standard that defines what it means to be butch, and they feel they don't live up to it.

I certainly have those feelings as a femme. I can clean up and dress up pretty well, but my everyday look, as well as my passions and work life, are not at all congruent with feminine standards of dress and behaviour. Feminine standards are broadcast from every billboard. We all know what they are, and I know that in many ways I don't fit them. Most of the time I don't give a rat's ass, and as a feminist I applaud myself for breaking stereotypes on a daily basis. BUT, in my less confident moments I can still be made to feel insecure in my femme ID. Every movie, every commercial and every magazine holds up some impossible ideal of what a feminine woman is supposed to look/act/be like. I know it's a bunch of photoshopped crap designed to sell us products we don't need, but some of it sinks in anyway. Even for me.

There are no TV ads that tell us how a butch is supposed to look and behave, (Thank the Goddess!). So where does the butch standard come from, and how does it happen that butches feel like they are inadequate to it? I'm guessing that even for the most feminist butch, some of that standard is probably based upon expectations of how a man should act. I hope there's a lot more to it than that. Do/did you have role models? Was/is there someone in your life who told/tells you that you aren't butch enough? (I confess to a very unfeminine urge to kick the ass of anyone who would do that, by the way.)

My second question is a related pet peeve. I have a feminist outlook born in the 1970s. Back then all the smart, feminist girls paid their own way on a date. What happened? How on earth has it become expected that the butch pays for the date? It makes no sense to me. Who would have imagined that I would have to re-establish those ground rules as a middle aged woman dating butch women? Is there a reasonable explanation? Please help me out with this.

As a butch, my personal opinion on your first question is that there is so much more to being a butch than dressing or acting a certain way..its a state of mind if you will. I had no role model growing up as a butch. I knew I liked girls and not boys. I knew that I got along great with boys and they considered me "one of the guys". I played touch football, climbed fences, got dirty and even got kissed by a girl who thought I was a boy lol I think it's an all around persona one embodies and its definitely different with every butch. It's very open and vast..the spectrum of it. Maybe I am more butch to someone (in their opinion) than to someone else. It's all personal perception of an individual.

As for the second question, I think most butches want to be chivalrous or gentlemen by treating their femme like a true lady..which would include paying for their meal, opening the door, pulling out their chair etc. Once again, it's a personal choice. I have no problem paying for dinner or going dutch. Compromise seems to be of the norm these days..and rightfully so with the feminine movement having advanced so far and pushing the boundaries each day.

[Mormegil]

I dont really know where I stand. My brother has told me countless times that im butch. and i do wear masculine clothing and have other traits associated with being butch.

But when i look into the mirror , i dont feel "butch" , I dont feel anything. not femme or butch. I simply exist.
I dont feel very feminine or masculine at all. But sometimes the balance i seem to have shifts one way or the other and then i return to the middle. and i tend to be extremely flexible when it comes to a partner. if she is more masculine iam usually more submissive unless she is. and if shes femme I can be her gentleman . I comfortably shift according to the needs or vibes she gives off , but its not something i do at will , it just kinda happens naturally by itself.

[ProfPacker]

Mormegil, I understand how you feel. When I was younger I felt that way although I always liked more femme women (even if they didn't traditionally present that way). As I get older I am taking on a more butch sense, however in truth I feel a lot like you most of the time...more butch (and in behavior and mental thoughts definitely) soft, athletic butch in presentation but find clothes hard to buy because a lot of time with fashion I am in the middle...mind more metrosexual...body not exactly there these day.

I am just me and each day I feel more and more like that is ok. This week is graduation week at the college I teach at and under my robes (hot in the sun I will tell you that) I will be dressed professionally in linen, soft butch like but will probably wear some eye make up....etc. I think it is more to be comfortable with who you feel you are at the moment and not have to dress or act within the guidelines of any labels...that is my thought for the day...although like I said I ID as butch...even with man liner I feel more butch. when I am with a woman, more dominant and gentlemanly, etc.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Mormegil

I dont really know where I stand. My brother has told me countless times that im butch. and i do wear masculine clothing and have other traits associated with being butch.

But when i look into the mirror , i dont feel "butch" , I dont feel anything. not femme or butch. I simply exist.
I dont feel very feminine or masculine at all. But sometimes the balance i seem to have shifts one way or the other and then i return to the middle. and i tend to be extremely flexible when it comes to a partner. if she is more masculine iam usually more submissive unless she is. and if shes femme I can be her gentleman . I comfortably shift according to the needs or vibes she gives off , but its not something i do at will , it just kinda happens naturally by itself.

If it was the 1950's, they would call you kiki since you could switch back and forth. Back then you had to choose butch or femme and if you could not slide yourself (or force yourself, I suspect), into one of those roles (or gender identity, depending upon how you saw it), you were called "kiki", with the expectation that you could go back and forth depending on who you partnered with.

Anyway, you don't have to be butch or femme. That is just one tiny slice of the lesbian/queer community. Seems to me it is a great way to fly...more choices! ha!

Remember, even if you don't identify as butch or femme (or trans, for that matter), you are welcome here.

P.S. No one is allowed to define you, but you. Especially not your brother!

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Mormegil

I dont really know where I stand. My brother has told me countless times that im butch. and i do wear masculine clothing and have other traits associated with being butch.

But when i look into the mirror , i dont feel "butch" , I dont feel anything. not femme or butch. I simply exist.
I dont feel very feminine or masculine at all. But sometimes the balance i seem to have shifts one way or the other and then i return to the middle. and i tend to be extremely flexible when it comes to a partner. if she is more masculine iam usually more submissive unless she is. and if shes femme I can be her gentleman . I comfortably shift according to the needs or vibes she gives off , but its not something i do at will , it just kinda happens naturally by itself.

I hope it's OK for me to comment in this thread even though I'm not butch. There's no need for you to make decisions about how to present. It's really, REALLY perfectly OK to just be who you are in the moment. No one else gets to tell you how that 'should' be, or to identify you as butch or femme. Simply existing is just fine. Most of the butch and femme women I know simply exist, which places them somewhere in a vast galaxy of possible presentations. A few of those women are extraordinarily masculine, and others are really traditionally feminine. Most of the others fall somewhere in between. They aren't posturing. It's just who they are. And that's great.

By the way, I understand that there's a societal assumption that masculine=dominant, and feminine=submissive. That assumption is problematic for many of us. You can be very masculine and not at all dominant, and vice versa.

[bicentennialjenn]

i'm wondering if anyone can relate. i'm with someone younger, and i'm her first lesbian experience (ever!). even though i should be more experienced, i feel like it's the opposite. she said she fell in love with me after dating 1 month and is sexually assertive... she wants to go down on me and use a strap on all the time (which is great), but she is really good at both and seems experienced. i would have thought it would take time to be confident/good at it? i am not complaining, just curious. was it like that w/any butches here? like one day you're dating men and the next you realize you are 100% into a woman and telling her you're in love w/her and fine going down/using strap on and ready to tell your parents you're a lesbian??? did you need any adjustment or was it that sudden? were you like that as soon as you met a woman you were attracted to? why i'm asking is that i think part of me has a hard time believing this is true, but she's never lied to me about anything else.