only another butch would understand

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Mister Bent I have never switched over who I recommended the Tough Guise video to. I believe it is important for everyone to watch that has a chance, and I certainly encourage all butches and other types of masculine identified people to watch it.

I never switched from saying all masculine identified people have a responsibility to examine masculinity.

Male and masculine are not the same thing. Male identified people have certain privileges and therefore responsibilities that I don't have in addition to having many over lapping ones that we share as masculine identified people. Just like I as a white person have certain privileges and responsibilities that people of color don't have.

I have also never equated male privilege or life experience of transmen with biologically born (in the legally recognized sense) males.

I am not sure where the confusion is coming from. I haven't switched anything.

Please indicate where I said you personally "switched" any of the above, or anything else. Thank you.

I am well aware that male and masculine are not the same thing, that's abundantly clear.

You continue to assert "Male identified people have certain privileges" without ever providing any evidence to back it up. It remains hollow and offensive as such.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

A. Male identified people have certain privileges and therefore responsibilities that I don't have

B. I have also never equated male privilege or life experience of transmen with biologically born (in the legally recognized sense) males.

1. You're doing part b right here when you say part a. You've said part b in many places all over the internet

2. Not all (and in fact, most, male ID'd people...and yes, some are butches) DON'T have certain privileges you think you're missing out on. In fact, MOST face double the oppression you do, because of INTERSECTIONS of privilege. Just because a female-bodied person all the sudden ID's as male doesn't mean they're granted anymore privilege than you are. The horse shit is getting deep.

3. You said this site is "primarily female queer space"...it is NOT "primarily female". It is a space for ALL queers. Sorry again about your luck that someone finally started a site for ALL queers and gender variant folks. That means NOT 'primarily female'. It means ALL. Again, you always have your clubhouse to complain about those you don't accept or like.

4. You DID waffle on your 'who needs to watch a video on masculinity' and you DID direct it towards male ID'd butches...but when you're called out, you retract it.



Dylan

[BullDog]

I stand corrected. You said pared down. I haven't pared down anything. I have been responding to all the missiles hurled my way. My focus has never changed.

As to evidence- not to be flippant- but how many years of evidence do you need? Have you been a part of other online butch femme communities? Do you not see how male is overwhelming valued over female? Have you not seen how butch has been equated to male? Have you not seen this?

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Please indicate where I said you personally "switched" any of the above, or anything else. Thank you.

I am well aware that male and masculine are not the same thing, that's abundantly clear.

You continue to assert "Male identified people have certain privileges" without ever providing any evidence to back it up. It remains hollow and offensive as such.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Dylan

1. You're doing part b right here when you say part a. You've said part b in many places all over the internet

2. Not all (and in fact, most, male ID'd people...and yes, some are butches) DON'T have certain privileges you think you're missing out on. In fact, MOST face double the oppression you do, because of INTERSECTIONS of privilege. Just because a female-bodied person all the sudden ID's as male doesn't mean they're granted anymore privilege than you are. The horse shit is getting deep.

3. You said this site is "primarily female queer space"...it is NOT "primarily female". It is a space for ALL queers. Sorry again about your luck that someone finally started a site for ALL queers and gender variant folks. That means NOT 'primarily female'. It means ALL. Again, you always have your clubhouse to complain about those you don't accept or like.

4. You DID waffle on your 'who needs to watch a video on masculinity' and you DID direct it towards male ID'd butches...but when you're called out, you retract it.

Dylan

Thank you.

[Just_G]

Well, here we go. I hate all this kind of interaction...it gets so negative and just feels gross to me. THIS kind of interaction is one of the several reasons I left the other site and all of that argumentive space.
THIS is why I don't participate in these kinds of threads. I am feeling all pissy and wanting to jump on people about things they say.

Peace out kids.....I am going to go let people know what I am wearing today or if I own something, or maybe even write a Dear * letter to make my friends laugh or smile.

This is ridiculous.

[BullDog]

G, I certainly agree. It's ludicrous.

[BullDog]

Peace. Out. I am following G out of this hate fest.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I stand corrected. You said pared down. I haven't pared down anything. I have been responding to all the missiles hurled my way. My focus has never changed.

As to evidence- not to be flippant- but how many years of evidence do you need? Have you been a part of other online butch femme communities? Do you not see how male is overwhelming valued over female? Have you not seen how butch has been equated to male? Have you not seen this?

I said pared down, yep. However, it was not directed specifically at you. I can provide examples in this thread where it has been pared down, if you like.

I tried to make it clear that I respect the position you (collectively) are in, and that I am trying to hear where you are coming from. I have not stated that I don't see male valued over female, I simply haven't addressed it because I don't disagree with it. Hell, I've lived it. I get it.

I don't know how to be more clear that I take no issue with that aspect of this discourse. What I take issue with, one more time, was the content of the last paragraph of your Tough Guise post.

It was/is exclusionary.

You were/are perpetuating the hierarchy. I won't accept that there is one. I won't play to it.

I've been around.

Now I see you calling the content here "ludicrous" and a "hate fest." Here is where I will remind you that you were the one who lit the match to the fire. You made transphobic statements, and now you accuse others of being hateful.

Last time I'm going to say it, accountability, it's a beautiful thing.

[Mtn]

Is it just me or has this EXACT thread in one way or another, always happened on every other site, with similar outcomes?....Mtn who learns from the past

[Mister Bent]

Is it just me, or is it every time there is a thread with meaningful content, people have to be dismissive of it and complain?

[Daywalker]

Originally Posted by Jackhammer

I was going to stay out of this thread since the conversation was moving a long but I do feel the need to add my few cents as a Butch person.

Id like to see the great divide brought together, Id like to see the healing begin. I know we can share space in this queer community as long as we honor and respect each other.

I have a lot of dear friends that are Male Identified and FTM and I do feel a deep sense of brotherhood with, while honoring my own Female Identity and that of many Female Identified friends.

We all have struggles to be seen, we all already know it, one persons visibility doesn't have to come at the expense of others.

Im not saying that in reference to anyone here, I'm just saying what Im feeling.

The first person ever Banned from this website is a known Troll that spews Transphobic hatred all over the internet.
We wont provide medium for hatred on any level.

I dont want anyone shaking a finger in my face telling me what I need to work on as a adult.
So lets talk to each other rather than at each other and not vilify any group of people.

Off to smoke my pipe on the front porch and watch the squirrels hide their nuts.

Sometimes yer just hawt.

Daywalker

Smokin mah pipe right along with ya.

[Toughy]

Greyson you make some excellent points and for simplicities sake and to keep me from rambling to much I will use this color to respond.

Originally Posted by Greyson

Toughy, Bulldog, Sharkchomp, Jess, Atomic, Met... all of you really thank you for your sharing your thoughts. I think this is an important topic to discuss. I am very heartened that our community is trying to talk about things that may be difficult to talk about for many.

Toughy, when you say butch-femme is primarily a female space; it started that way.... Do you mean that butches and femmes started with female bodies or is there more to it? You and I are in the same age group and I think we both have identified as butches for all of our adult lives. When we came out, I think in different parts of the USA, The Second Wave of Feminism was the self and media designated leaders of gay womens culture. The term "lesbian" was just beginning to be used in a positive fashion. Many many gay women had trouble acclimating to the word "lesbian."

We did not have a very large consciousness about Trans stuff. To be Trans was not an option for most. How would many of us know we were shades of a third gender or gender that is not static? We did not. I found myself in the camp of Butch-Femme. We were discarded and marginalized by the general population of Lesbians. I know you know this stuff. My point is I believe that many in the generation before us or the generation when we were baby butches, there was no room for female masculinity nor a gender outside of the binary. If you mean the butch-femme community started with people that were born into a biological/cisgender female body, I agree. If you mean female was the primary gender, I agee but I also think if we had more options at that point in time, "female space" would not have necessarily been the default.

Yep we are the same age and have been butch since birth. I sometimes find it difficult to talk about the early 70's with the meanings of the present language. There was no conversation about gender and gender identity. It didn't exist. I really did just mean butch was female and/or woman identity at that time. And I would agree that had other options existed then, butch certainly may not have been a female/woman id.

The 'hate the wanna be manbutch' and the total rejection of femininity as in hair make-up or jewelry that was the hallmark of 2nd Wave Lesbian Feminism really had no legs in Amarillo Tx or in the Army. It was butch or femme or kiki.

Yes, misogyny is in the very fabric of our culture. Like you and Bully I do believe we have a responsibility to examine our masculinity. All of us of the butch bent have that responsibility. Not just Transmen and/or male identified. The larger culture is still assigning masculinity to "men." I think most of us in here know masculinity is not purely a male characteristic.

Yes I did leave out non-male id'd folks. I agree that all of us who are masculine (regardless of id) need to examine masculinity and it's power in our society and culture. I do think it is imperative and incumbent and a duty that those who are male/trans id'd take a really close look at it. If you walk in the world as a man you have a huge responsibility to lead the change of the paradigm about what masculine and male and man actually means. It seems to me male/trans id requires one to be in the forefront for change.

I know when I am perceived as man, I truly try to be aware of how I perform man. (And yes there are times I do nothing to suggest I am not a man.) How do I act? What do I say? How do I respond to sexism and negative comments about women?

As for T changing the way we think and act, for me the jury is still out. I take T. I am much more vigilant about how I treat women, femmes. I have not turned into an angry, abusive, sexed crazed "man."

Before I started to take T, it was found I had high levels of testosterone for a female bodied person. I am willing to bet we have female identified butches in our community with higher then "normal" amounts of testosterone in their body. Are they thinking and acting differently?

Being in the upper end of the normal range of T levels for a woman is an entirely different thing than the levels reached and maintained when one transitions and becomes hormonally male. I was not insinuating in any way that all folks who use T have 'roid rage and become evil incarnate.

I'm not trying to pick on you Toughy. I have read many of your posts because although I may not agree with you sometimes, I respect your mind, your intelligence.

As for the White Male Privilege, it does exist. I am not trying to fault anyone. I think Bulldog is just saying we need to start admitting to ourselves that male privilege does exist, and how will we begin to break it down in our community and assist in erradicating old and ignorant ideas and behavior starting with ourselves.

I think if we take a closer look we will find that most butches have been on the receiving end of some male privilege. And, we have also known discrimination because we did not look like the "norm" for a female bodied person.

Finally, "White Male Privilege" and "Male Privilege." I think it is a bit of a different experience for butches, Transmen that are "other." How many black or brown men do we seen in the prisons? At the head of Corporations, in lead positions?

Like Jess says, the Golden Rule is a pretty good start.

yes yes and yes.........agreed on your last paragraphs.

My friend, I would never think you are picking on me. I see you as thoughtful, insightful, gentle and always courteous. This is a discussion of really difficult issues and concepts, and I think we all do well when we speak from our hearts.

[Liam]

The "discussion," which I have read in this thread, reminded me of similar ones, which inspired this poem, written in the early 80's.

Tapestry

It is difficult to find the thread in this weaving of women,
a string labeled community with knots so obvious,
yet the adjoining fiber elusive.
Self-imposed matriarchs, seductive in their leadership,
silent sheep blind to the wolf in shepherd's clothing,
it is a comfortable existence.

Where are your voices sisters?
How long before you discover the courage to not give your power away?
A wise man once spoke of stones and blame,
no doubt a lesson learned at his mother's knee.
Yet you persist in elevating your own self-importance,
and righteously climb over the lives that you have
discussed, dissected, and discarded as unworthy.
Are you ignorant of your own mistakes?
Unwilling to admit your own shortcomings or foolishness?
Are you so perfect, that you have forgotten that life is simply a path of lessons?

There is no hierarchy in the field of growth,
it is simply a common struggle,
success measured only by the individual,
not the collective.
Set your houses in order sisters—
tend to your own housekeeping.
Speak of yourself, not others.
Divisions and factions evade the warp,
the thread could be pulled,
the weaving unraveled.

© 1982 K. Berryman

No longer identifying as a lesbian, or butch, secure in my masculinity, and sadly confident that there is no room in this community, for me.

Liam

[Daywalker]

Originally Posted by Liam

The "discussion," which I have read in this thread, reminded me of similar ones, which inspired this poem, written in the early 80's.

Tapestry

It is difficult to find the thread in this weaving of women,
a string labeled community with knots so obvious,
yet the adjoining fiber elusive.
Self-imposed matriarchs, seductive in their leadership,
silent sheep blind to the wolf in shepherd's clothing,
it is a comfortable existence.

Where are your voices sisters?
How long before you discover the courage to not give your power away?
A wise man once spoke of stones and blame,
no doubt a lesson learned at his mother's knee.
Yet you persist in elevating your own self-importance,
and righteously climb over the lives that you have
discussed, dissected, and discarded as unworthy.
Are you ignorant of your own mistakes?
Unwilling to admit your own shortcomings or foolishness?
Are you so perfect, that you have forgotten that life is simply a path of lessons?

There is no hierarchy in the field of growth,
it is simply a common struggle,
success measured only by the individual,
not the collective.
Set your houses in order sisters—
tend to your own housekeeping.
Speak of yourself, not others.
Divisions and factions evade the warp,
the thread could be pulled,
the weaving unraveled.

© 1982 K. Berryman

No longer identifying as a lesbian, or butch, secure in my masculinity, and sadly confident that there is no room in this community, for me.

Liam

This is a beautiful piece of writing.

However, the final sentence you have added...is tragic.



And I sure as hell hope that before dismissing anyones
presence here as valid, that folks learn to inspect
their own words first and how hurtful
and divisive they really are.

[Admin]

I want to make it crystal clear that this space is not merely inclusive of male-identified people, but that we HONOR that path.

I have been watching this conversation evolve and want to interject something here.

It looks like there is some vocalizing of fear around being marginalized as a female-identified Butch. I get that. I understand that deep desire to be seen, to be honored, to be heard, to be not just visible in a space but to have a sturdy foundation. Female-identified Butches will ALWAYS have a foundation in Butch-Femme culture, an honored and valued one!

We need to remember that male-identified people and Trans men have BEEN in our shoes. They have walked these miles and the decision to transition does NOT erase years of lived history. It doesnt mean that they have some higher status in this community because they are now transitioned or male-identified, it just means they have a different experience. A valued and honored one!

The injection of testosterone or use of male pronouns doesnt cause a physiological change in the brain where knuckle-dragging sexism takes root. Most likely that behavior would already be rooted in the person doing it. Butches do it. Femmes do it. We ALL do it sometimes.

I think that we can certainly seek ways to be seen, ways to be comfortable. I think it is perfectly ok to say to a person, "Hey, can you please be mindful of how your presence here affects my own presence here"
And that goes in both directions! We ALL affect each other. Nobody here exists in a bubble - and who would want to?

This is a gentle reminder to all that this conversation is fucking important and that we might feel like throwing up our hands and giving up but that maybe our frustration is a call to stay the course.

We need to ALL be mindful to use language that is respectful and honoring of this space for which is was intended. This is YOUR home, so dont go putting up any ugly decorations.

Love to us all.

[evolveme]

"There is no hierarchy in the field of growth,
it is simply a common struggle..."

I'm always disappointed, but rarely surprised, when adults have a difficult time stomaching the hard conversations. For me, it's the hard conversations, the ones in which we struggle and rub against each other and are confronted with our fear, our exclusion, our hate, our power, our privilege--all the tough and tricky burdens--in which we really come together. Those are the discussions in which I believe we grow.

I don't see dissent as a displeasure, so much as the necessary sacrifice of a consciousness working it out. I am never afraid to disagree. But then, I try to never take matters of disagreement personally. When I do, I try to own it and move forward.

I will never believe that all the Kumbaya business in the world can bring us a sense of community. That makes for false mortar. I believe community is better built in being civil, but forthright. I believe in Doing The Work.

And sometimes that means we will be heated. We will staunchly disagree. But we will, if we are wise, understand what brought us together in the first place. We have a commonality more significant than any of our differences. It is this that has laid the foundation for any of our community building efforts. It is this that made a place for us here.

[BullDog]

People appear to be seriously confused about what I have said.
I have never said that butch femme space was all woman or female space nor have I advocated it.
I have never said male identified people should not be welcome and I too have close male id butch and trans friends, and consider male id people as part of my community as well.
I have never been afraid of being marginalized- as a female identified butch or anything else.
I have never been afraid to speak up about things that I felt were important and I am not going to stop speaking up wherever I happen to participate.

Misogyny doesn't appear to be going away anytime soon. EVERYONE is responsible for unmasking, uprooting and getting rid of it. If discussions about misogyny are not welcome here just let me know. I have never blamed male identified people for all misogyny, and I am thoroughly sick and tired of my words being characterized that way.

Peace to All.

P.S. Evolveme, I agree with you- Kumbabya is not the answer. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be respectful of one another and wish for us all to get along peacefully, but the tough conversations need to be had in order to get anywhere.

I am severely frustrated because I have no idea why people are not understanding what I write. I am a professional writer- I fucking get paid for it. I write thousands of words every day and people understand what I write. Otherwise I wouldn't get paid for it. Actually Toughy and Greyson seemed to understand just fine.

Sorry if this is overly personal. I am severely frustrated.

[Daywalker]

Originally Posted by evolveme

"There is no hierarchy in the field of growth,
it is simply a common struggle..."

I'm always disappointed, but rarely surprised, when adults have a difficult time stomaching the hard conversations. For me, it's the hard conversations, the ones in which we struggle and rub against each other and are confronted with our fear, our exclusion, our hate, our power, our privilege--all the tough and tricky burdens--in which we really come together. Those are the discussions in which I believe we grow.

I don't see dissent as a displeasure, so much as the necessary sacrifice of a consciousness working it out. I am never afraid to disagree. But then, I try to never take matters of disagreement personally. When I do, I try to own it and move forward.

I will never believe that all the Kumbaya business in the world can bring us a sense of community. That makes for false mortar. I believe community is better built in being civil, but forthright. I believe in Doing The Work.

And sometimes that means we will be heated. We will staunchly disagree. But we will, if we are wise, understand what brought us together in the first place. We have a commonality more significant than any of our differences. It is this that has laid the foundation for any of our community building efforts. It is this that made a place for us here.

I believe in the theory that the hard stuff must be brought forth in order to
gain a better perspective n what have you. I read a lot. I may not jump
in to some conversations, because frankly some of them get over wrought
with bullshit back n forths that are more personal; than those that are
actually addressing the main Topic at hand. I am also one who tends
to care about the words that I use, and how all folks might interpret them.
And I never post my words as if I am right and everyone else who doesn't
agree just 'doesn't get it...so they are wrong'. I will not speak from a clouded
point of frustration, because when I read folks who do just that thing...I cannot
get past their disposition far enough to decipher what it is they are really
trying to say. Heated discussions are great, so long as the Topic does not
get clouded over in a circus of demeanor's that resemble hecklers with no
meaning, only destructive motives and divisiveness. There really is a way
to discuss the Hard Stuff without being fucked up to one side of the
conversationalists, and only defending those who agree with me.

To Me

Addressing anything Butch Femme related, includes the Voices of Past,
Present AND Future Butches of our Community. No one should feel left
out of a conversation (or the target of) over such things as pronouns,
which is just a preference as to how we have chosen to be addressed
within the Community. And yes, our commonalities are indeed more
significant than our differences.

[bonne-maman]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Misogyny doesn't appear to be going away anytime soon. EVERYONE is responsible for unmasking, uprooting and getting rid of it. If discussions about misogyny are not welcome here just let me know. I have never blamed male identified people for all misogyny, and I am thoroughly sick and tired of my words being characterized that way.

We are all responsible, all the time, for working on our own internalized isms. Misogyny, racism, classism, agism, disabism, all of it, is embedded in all of us. How deeply the various isms are held in us, and how we must approach unlearning them, is impacted by who we are. Are we male-identified, female-identified, male, female, white, African-American, old, young, able, otherly-abled? Whatever combination is me, impacts how I approach the isms within me that I must unlearn. I hear in this thread the voices of those who are masculine people who have strong values, strong ethics, strong morals. I read these voices on a day I have spent as a female adult person trying mightily to help a female young person hold on to a bare thread of sanity. Sanity that has been ripped from her by male people who have beaten, raped, and abused her, and female people who have neglected to protect her. This is the far extreme of the misogyny that is spoken of here, that we must all unlearn. We are all responsible, every day, for unlearning how privilege of various sorts allows us to walk the world safer than others, in order to make the world safer for others.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

We are all responsible, all the time, for working on our own internalized isms. Misogyny, racism, classism, agism, disabism, all of it, is embedded in all of us. How deeply the various isms are held in us, and how we must approach unlearning them, is impacted by who we are. Are we male-identified, female-identified, male, female, white, African-American, old, young, able, otherly-abled? Whatever combination is me, impacts how I approach the isms within me that I must unlearn. I hear in this thread the voices of those who are masculine people who have strong values, strong ethics, strong morals. I read these voices on a day I have spent as a female adult person trying mightily to help a female young person hold on to a bare thread of sanity. Sanity that has been ripped from her by male people who have beaten, raped, and abused her, and female people who have neglected to protect her. This is the far extreme of the misogyny that is spoken of here, that we must all unlearn. We are all responsible, every day, for unlearning how privilege of various sorts allows us to walk the world safer than others, in order to make the world safer for others.

Thank you for your post. I agree with all my heart. Peace to the young woman that you helped. And thank you for being there.