only another butch would understand

[BullDog]

Mister Bent I have never switched over who I recommended the Tough Guise video to. I believe it is important for everyone to watch that has a chance, and I certainly encourage all butches and other types of masculine identified people to watch it.

I never switched from saying all masculine identified people have a responsibility to examine masculinity.

Male and masculine are not the same thing. Male identified people have certain privileges and therefore responsibilities that I don't have in addition to having many over lapping ones that we share as masculine identified people. Just like I as a white person have certain privileges and responsibilities that people of color don't have.

I have also never equated male privilege or life experience of transmen with biologically born (in the legally recognized sense) males.

I am not sure where the confusion is coming from. I haven't switched anything.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Mister Bent I have never switched over who I recommended the Tough Guise video to. I believe it is important for everyone to watch that has a chance, and I certainly encourage all butches and other types of masculine identified people to watch it.

I never switched from saying all masculine identified people have a responsibility to examine masculinity.

Male and masculine are not the same thing. Male identified people have certain privileges and therefore responsibilities that I don't have in addition to having many over lapping ones that we share as masculine identified people. Just like I as a white person have certain privileges and responsibilities that people of color don't have.

I have also never equated male privilege or life experience of transmen with biologically born (in the legally recognized sense) males.

I am not sure where the confusion is coming from. I haven't switched anything.

Please indicate where I said you personally "switched" any of the above, or anything else. Thank you.

I am well aware that male and masculine are not the same thing, that's abundantly clear.

You continue to assert "Male identified people have certain privileges" without ever providing any evidence to back it up. It remains hollow and offensive as such.

[BullDog]

I stand corrected. You said pared down. I haven't pared down anything. I have been responding to all the missiles hurled my way. My focus has never changed.

As to evidence- not to be flippant- but how many years of evidence do you need? Have you been a part of other online butch femme communities? Do you not see how male is overwhelming valued over female? Have you not seen how butch has been equated to male? Have you not seen this?

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Please indicate where I said you personally "switched" any of the above, or anything else. Thank you.

I am well aware that male and masculine are not the same thing, that's abundantly clear.

You continue to assert "Male identified people have certain privileges" without ever providing any evidence to back it up. It remains hollow and offensive as such.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I stand corrected. You said pared down. I haven't pared down anything. I have been responding to all the missiles hurled my way. My focus has never changed.

As to evidence- not to be flippant- but how many years of evidence do you need? Have you been a part of other online butch femme communities? Do you not see how male is overwhelming valued over female? Have you not seen how butch has been equated to male? Have you not seen this?

I said pared down, yep. However, it was not directed specifically at you. I can provide examples in this thread where it has been pared down, if you like.

I tried to make it clear that I respect the position you (collectively) are in, and that I am trying to hear where you are coming from. I have not stated that I don't see male valued over female, I simply haven't addressed it because I don't disagree with it. Hell, I've lived it. I get it.

I don't know how to be more clear that I take no issue with that aspect of this discourse. What I take issue with, one more time, was the content of the last paragraph of your Tough Guise post.

It was/is exclusionary.

You were/are perpetuating the hierarchy. I won't accept that there is one. I won't play to it.

I've been around.

Now I see you calling the content here "ludicrous" and a "hate fest." Here is where I will remind you that you were the one who lit the match to the fire. You made transphobic statements, and now you accuse others of being hateful.

Last time I'm going to say it, accountability, it's a beautiful thing.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

A. Male identified people have certain privileges and therefore responsibilities that I don't have

B. I have also never equated male privilege or life experience of transmen with biologically born (in the legally recognized sense) males.

1. You're doing part b right here when you say part a. You've said part b in many places all over the internet

2. Not all (and in fact, most, male ID'd people...and yes, some are butches) DON'T have certain privileges you think you're missing out on. In fact, MOST face double the oppression you do, because of INTERSECTIONS of privilege. Just because a female-bodied person all the sudden ID's as male doesn't mean they're granted anymore privilege than you are. The horse shit is getting deep.

3. You said this site is "primarily female queer space"...it is NOT "primarily female". It is a space for ALL queers. Sorry again about your luck that someone finally started a site for ALL queers and gender variant folks. That means NOT 'primarily female'. It means ALL. Again, you always have your clubhouse to complain about those you don't accept or like.

4. You DID waffle on your 'who needs to watch a video on masculinity' and you DID direct it towards male ID'd butches...but when you're called out, you retract it.



Dylan

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Dylan

1. You're doing part b right here when you say part a. You've said part b in many places all over the internet

2. Not all (and in fact, most, male ID'd people...and yes, some are butches) DON'T have certain privileges you think you're missing out on. In fact, MOST face double the oppression you do, because of INTERSECTIONS of privilege. Just because a female-bodied person all the sudden ID's as male doesn't mean they're granted anymore privilege than you are. The horse shit is getting deep.

3. You said this site is "primarily female queer space"...it is NOT "primarily female". It is a space for ALL queers. Sorry again about your luck that someone finally started a site for ALL queers and gender variant folks. That means NOT 'primarily female'. It means ALL. Again, you always have your clubhouse to complain about those you don't accept or like.

4. You DID waffle on your 'who needs to watch a video on masculinity' and you DID direct it towards male ID'd butches...but when you're called out, you retract it.

Dylan

Thank you.