Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[citybutch]

June as the person who works on the P&L I will put together some notes together for you. I am currently on vacation and was out on the water yesterday so didn't have service to respond more promptly.

As an FYI, and generally speaking, and as someone who sits on numerous Boards such as the local LGBT Center, a theatre, and on the finance committee on a local LGBT Foundation, professional financials do not go into detail as to who is cut what check when. In fact, it is not even the Board who sees the detailed financials in many organizations. It is the finance committee who reviews the detailed financials and it is the audit committee who reviews the detailed audit. The committees then recommend to the Board approval (or not) after recommended changes are made. The Board (and the community or constituency who is served ) is/are free to ask questions about the details which the Treasurer or other members of the finance committee will answer. To work on a Board of Directors for an organization means there is a lot of oversight over programs, staff (if there is one), financials, building maintenance, etc.

Also, the Board of BV is actively seeking 501 (c) 3 status through a sponsor. It is complicated for this organization because we engage in activity in multiple States. If we were to file for 501 (c) 3 status on our own it would be a complicated and an expensive endeavor... one in which our minimal resources would not cover.

I will be back when I am able to make note of your questions.

Thanks for your questioning mind June!

Originally Posted by June

I don't think their financials are transparent at all. There are telephone, hotel, travel, car, food and external conference expenses that are not explained as to who benefited from them. Conversely, they say over and over again that they grant scholarships to students and lower income folks, there is no line item about $xxx.xx in scholarship funds being disbursed.

And it's their right not to disclose. They are not now, nor have they been in the past a 501c3. Whether or not they are actively seeking to become one is not clear from information on the website.

However, in my opinion, because they are a volunteer driven organization actively seeking donations to further their organization AND they are charging a fairly high registration fee for the "privilege" of gathering together with other "Masculine of Center" folks, it seems to me that they do have an obligation to be extremely transparent in their financial dealings.

For example, I get that organizing is very difficult and time consuming work. Sometimes, we get paid for that work if we're fortunate enough to do it for an established 501c3/NPO. Granted, nobody is getting rich working for an NPO, unless it's a really big one with deep pockets like, HRC. (And "rich" is relative, right?). So, let's say you're an average working class Queer and you want to attend a conference or event, you've got at minimum, the following:

Registration
Airfare/travel
Hotel
Food

I fail to see the fairness if you, as a participant have these expenses to attend the event, and a "few" or less, because they are organizing the event, don't have the same expenses. UNLESS it is stated that a certain portion of your registration will be used for the expenses of the President/Founder/Board Members or whomever. Then you can decide if that feels good to you, and make an educated decision whether or not to support that.

As I have said, ad nauseum, I don't care personally if you make money from the work you do. But if I am supporting you financially and with time, then I want to know about it.

I understand that not everyone agrees with this and lots of people don't care that their registration money is going to pay for someones room service when they are making sandwiches out of a cooler because they spent everything they had to get to the event, but I do care about that very much.

--June

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

I totally agree.

I have stated previously that I am like Rippetta Van Winkle. I went into my long-term relationship and the world was one way, I came out of it and things were quite different.

20 years ago, there were butches, femmes and androgenous women that, as a femme, appeared more butch to me than femme.

The circle of friends that my ex and I had identified as either butch or femme. Everyone identified as a female so I did not have to try to figure too much out, or worry I might make a mistake and blunder into saying something wrong.

Before you jump on me, I totally get there have always been transgendered folk throughout history.

What is different, however, is that I did not even know anyone 15-20 years ago, that took T and changed gender. I found out kind of by accident on You Tube of all things after my break-up when I typed in "butch-femme" and found so many young transmen. This was a new concept for me. No negative judgments about it, it just took a little bit to wrap my head around.

I kept looking for butch lesbians and had a much harder time finding them before I found the planet. I do still get confused about pronouns and I become fearful I will insult someone, so frequently, I check and recheck their profile and if I still do not see it, I just do not say anything, rather than make a mistake.

I appreciate the lesbian zone because then, I am fairly sure (but never 100% positive) that I can pretty much tell, that those that post are lesbians-unless of course-they identify as trans.

I really like it that on this website we have a pronouns preferred section, because it is difficult to keep up. On other sites the default was always "he" and I, as a Lesbian, love the word "she" is it relates to Butch.

You are not alone.

Originally Posted by June

Age v. Feminism. Hmmmmm.

I am going to be 50 soon. Many of my friends are Lesbian Feminists, several of those are older than I am, so in my local community, I am in a cocoon of sorts. I know that I can be who I am because of the continuous work of others who came before me. I am not sure if I was 30 or younger that I would have the same perspective.

With that said, I am often amazed and in awe of our younger activists, who are out there pushing the envelope with regards to gender presentation and wider acceptance. I often attend gatherings locally where there are numerous gender presentations and identifications going on simultaneously, and I have to say, it's really energizing for me, and lets me gain new perspective and understanding. I don't always get it, but I appreciate it, because I believe strongly that people should be able to self-identify and be who they are. Those that are true to themselves, even under extreme adversity, even when it's not convenient, have my respect.

With that said, as I age, I do see and experience ageism. The lessening of value in the eyes of some others. The use of "Old" not as a descriptor, but as a slur. It's disheartening to me that my voice, or that of others may be perceived as less valuable by some.

There are many different versions of Feminism. I am starting to see us, in this community lose respect for the basic tenets, as I understand them of equality and the fight for women's voices to be heard and respected as much as male voices. For us to be able to use our strident voices without being dismissed as a Bitch or divisive. I might have more on that later, but these are my thoughts for now, Jen.

Maybe it is that we actually remember when things were really different for Women and Lesbians? And that we are so thankful and even surprised things have come so far that the memory of how women were treated way back when is fading?

Originally Posted by Heart

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart

For me, it would work better if the two had separate leadership on some issues and operated hand in hand.

I would like to see Women's organizations headed by Women.

That being said, I can understand how someone already in a leadership position can change their perception on how the identify as they discover their own mind and path.

I have no clue what the answer is, but discussing it really helps us think.

Originally Posted by Kobi

What Heart says rings true for me but is a little more basic than just leadership, old and new guard.

To me, the issue comes down to basic female vs other than female identified. It comes down to not a butch thing, however one chooses to define it, but to a female vs non-female/male thing. And it is not about celebrating diversity. It is about attempts to meld genders into something acceptable to all.

While I have a great deal of respect for transpersons, I have no need or desire, nor do I find it at all beneficial to women to meld genders. I actually find that to be disturbing and downright foolish.

In many respects, it is like saying to a group of diverse ethnicities, lets all become one cuz our commonness is in being human. AND, lets have the white race head it all. I tend to think other ethnicities might have a wee bit of a problem with this considering the history and reality of ongoing oppression and racism.

Same is true when you try and meld female and non-female into "masculine of center". The very term negates my femaleness and promotes things masculine. This will never sit right with me.

In the same vein, there are attempts, from my point of view, to meld lesbian/gay with non lesbian/gay. Again, this doesn't sit right with me. I am not at all comfortable with giving up my lesbianism in any way, shape or form.

As a point of history, Planet didn't even have a Lesbian Zone back in 2010. It took a bit of controversy to get one. And then, a guy takes it upon himself to start the first thread in the Lesbian Zone. That was a power play and a very in your face display of masculine privilege.

To me, there are boundaries and space issues which should be respected if one wants to celebrate diversity. It is about not blurring boundaries or invading others space or one group taking it upon themselves to speak for another. To do so is putting one in a dominant position and the other in a subordinate one.

There may be a new world order coming but it shouldn't come at the expense of melding genders or orientations.

I agree with most of you post. I agree we should not all be melded into every Butch being a man...and not just because I dig Butches. lol. It is a different ID than Trans. Completely different.

However, I don't think this thread was created out of a power play in a malicious way. I think Liam was trying to be helpful. I do agree that it seems weird than a man started this thread and that being helpful when no help is wanted can seem heavy handed.

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

My understanding from the posts in this thread is that it is a place to proudly identify as a lesbian and find others who identify as such too. As of right now, however, it has degenerated into a "bitch about Butch Voices" thread, which, as I said before and still stand by, I believe would be best served in it's own thread instead of derailing this one.

As for Jess's comment, I was solely intending to use that to counter Heart's objection that discussion about what the term "butch" meant was not happening, when clearly it was.

I think the discussion about BV is important, like I said, I just don't think this was the right thread for it.

What would you like us to discuss? What what would be helpful to you?

Yes I am an out and proud Lesbian discussing Lesbian issues!

Originally Posted by BullDog

I still don't understand why people don't get why some of us feel the need and desire to have a Lesbian Zone (which is also of course open to Friends and Allies posting in) on a Butch Femme website to discuss issues of interest to lesbians or issues from a lesbian perspective. I seriously don't get it.

My difficulties with Butch Voices and the way I was treated by them had everything to do with the fact that I am a Butch Woman and Lesbian, so it makes perfect sense to me to discuss it in the Lesbian Zone. If it doesn't for others, you can always discuss it elsewhere. Or not.

I was a little puzzled when Liam started this thread since I had just started mine, but I do believe he started it to help bring visibility to lesbians when Kobi was new and trying to find her way here and wondering where the lesbians were. Linus also wanted to help Kobi out and I think that had a lot to do with the Lesbian Zone being created in the first place.

I actually started my thread on Lesbians/Dykes because people were wondering where the lesbians or lesbian threads were as well- different people, different thread than where Kobi was wondering. There wasn't a Lesbian Zone yet. I can't remember where I put it. Anyway Linus moved it to the Lesbian Zone. I was happy the Zone was created and that my thread was moved.

I think it just did not occur to anyone we would need a Lesbian Zone on a Lesbian website...and then when it because apparent that it was not just a Lesbian website people asked for the Zone and it was added.

I never posted in Dykes to Watch Out for Thread because I thought it was about the comic strip by a similar name and I never read it.

It is all about perception isn't it.

Great discussion!

[Chazz]

Still hoping for a discussion of this:

Originally Posted by Heart

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart

This business of leadership style is about how power and control is welded.

The Butch Voices controversy illustrates a top down, hierarchical model typically associated with male leadership. Its authoritarian, elitist, patronizing and pretentious. This form of "leadership" presumes to speak FOR its constituents. Hence, neologisms like: "Masculine of center".

Feminist models of leadership tend to be collaborative, relational, inclusive, horizontal rather than hierarchical, with a keen eye towards power dynamics.

"Study findings indicate that because feminists construct themselves differently from traditional [male] leadership models, they are often marginalized." (Tracy Barton, PhD in 2006 in higher education administration and women’s and gender studies from the University of Toledo)

For further reading on Feminist leadership styles: http://www.humiliationstudies.org/do...Leadership.pdf

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Kobi

What Heart says rings true for me but is a little more basic than just leadership, old and new guard.

To me, the issue comes down to basic female vs other than female identified. It comes down to not a butch thing, however one chooses to define it, but to a female vs non-female/male thing. And it is not about celebrating diversity. It is about attempts to meld genders into something acceptable to all.

Ah, the grand melting post of gender.

Who's agenda does that grand melting post serve?

Originally Posted by Kobi

While I have a great deal of respect for transpersons, I have no need or desire, nor do I find it at all beneficial to women to meld genders. I actually find that to be disturbing and downright foolish.

Yep....

Originally Posted by Kobi

In many respects, it is like saying to a group of diverse ethnicities, lets all become one cuz our commonness is in being human. AND, lets have the white race head it all. I tend to think other ethnicities might have a wee bit of a problem with this considering the history and reality of ongoing oppression and racism.

Same is true when you try and meld female and non-female into "masculine of center". The very term negates my femaleness and promotes things masculine. This will never sit right with me.

In the same vein, there are attempts, from my point of view, to meld lesbian/gay with non lesbian/gay. Again, this doesn't sit right with me. I am not at all comfortable with giving up my lesbianism in any way, shape or form.

As a point of history, Planet didnt even have a Lesbian Zone back in 2010. It took a bit of controversy to get one. And then, a guy takes it upon himself to start the first thread in the Lesbian Zone. That was a power play and a very in your face display of masculine privilege.

To me, there are boundaries and space issues which should be respected if one wants to celebrate diversity. It is about not blurring boundaries or invading others space or one group taking it upon themselves to speak for another. To do so is putting one in a dominant position and the other in a subordinate one.

It is precisely about "blurring boundaries", "invading other's space" and "taking it upon themselves to speak for another".

In academic circles that's called neo-colonialism (it use to be referred to as: The White Man's Burden).

Originally Posted by Kobi

There may be a new world order coming but it shouldn't come at the expense of melding genders or orientations.

It's NOT about a "new world order coming". It's about the reinstatement of a very old world order.

When are lesbians going to look at these issues through the lens of critical thinking? It will be too late when we get herded into calling ourselves gender screwnicorns?

[Chazz]

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?



Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)

But wait.... Where was the "center"?

Oh yeah, Wyoming.

Where's Wyoming?

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Butch Voices wants to include butch women and female identified butches- on their own terms. It's always been that way.

Exactly Bully..........

I wish they would not call themselves 'Butch Voices' because in my mind they are not.............

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?



Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)

But wait.... Where was the "center"?

Oh yeah, Wyoming.

Where's Wyoming?

Carried out to it's logical conclusion MoC ends up being yet another covert way to put women in their places...just like it always has been.

It pisses me OFF.

Or that is what it sounds like to me. That being Trans is preferable to being women.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Carried out to it's logical conclusion MoC ends up being yet another covert way to put women in their places...just like it always has been.

It pisses me OFF.

What's samatta, you don't like Wyoming?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Chazz

What's samatta, you don't like Wyoming?

I am sure it is quite lovely, but why we gotta move?

[Chazz]

Maybe butch women should start an organization called Uzbek Voices and presume to speak for them.

We'll let Uzbeks join of course as long as they're quiet and do what we tell them to do. And, come to our conferences and stuff.

We'll call them Asians of center.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I am sure it is quite lovely, but why we gotta move?

'Cause we were told too. Don't be difficult.

You don't wanna be seen as a non-compliant woman, do you.

Pack a bag. I'll pick you up in the Winnebago in ten.

[BullDog]

Well a group for butch women was started on Facebook. Hundreds of butches joined. Of course we were charged with being exclusionary.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?



Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)

But wait.... Where was the "center"?

Oh yeah, Wyoming.

Where's Wyoming?

It's right here (a little to the left) in the center...



Personally, I think Kansas is in the center.....

[Kobi]

I have three ideas to cover here but I need to split them up for clarity purposes.

First, I would love to discuss the differences in leadership style between males and females but I am reluctant to do so in regards to BV specifically.

Aside from the 2 points of reference that were provided to us, I dont know the organization, the history or the players. I suspect there are elements of truths on each side. I dont feel informed enough to be able to speak to their specific hierarchy.

I can say thank you to Chazz for the feminist leadership info....even if it was by a name that I would presume is male.

In my personal experience, I can attest to feeling, witnessing and being part of the difference of leadership styles between women and men. I have found female leadership to be more process oriented and male leadership to be more outcome oriented.

However, the context of the group being lead has always played into the picture. Not all female lead groups are process oriented, nor male lead groups outcome oriented. The purpose of the group or meeting does determine which style of leadership works best in a given situation.

In my personal experience, issues related to women, and in this case it is female id lesbian butches, is best left to leadership by women. Males cannot understand the issues of a woman/lesbian in quite the same way as a woman/lesbian can. Most males reqardless of their origins, still cannot grasp the concept of inherent male privilege. Thats a problem for mixed gender groups.

So, to me, having a male/masculine identity/person speak for me or be a leader for my issues as a woman/lesbian is a huge step back in time to a place I dont want to go.

In the same vein, having a female/lesbian lead or speak for male/masculine essentially straight people would also be problematic.

Thinking one can merge the two into something with commonalities essentially negates the beauty and desirability of their differences. That is problematic as well.

This is a very complex thing.

[Kobi]

My second point has to do with the new world order and no Chazz, its not about women/female id butches taking a step back LOL.

The trans community is growing by leaps and bounds. As more and more folks come to grips with their true selves and take steps to create their true selves it will grow even more. When children as young as 2 or 3 are showing and stating gender issues, it is a reality that cannot be ignored.

Basic change theory postulates that a change in one part of a system requires a change in another. It has to change. It cannot not change.

We have seen glimpses of just some of the issues that need to be grappled with on this site. We have seen issues related to transgender athletes in sports, to bathrooms, to locker rooms, to educational facilities and opportunities, to anti discrimination laws, the Michigan Womens Music festival, Olivia cruises etc.

The part that gets complicated is we have a fast moving changing reality and are ill equipped, presently, to incorporate that into everyday living at a pace that keeps up. Kind of like technology is leap years ahead of law.

The butch-femme community talks a lot about getting rid of a binary system of gender yet we cling to it! Butch femme connotates a certain thing. So one is expected to be one or the other. Seeing not too many guys are clamoring for the femme label, it is the butch label that is taking the brunt of things.

In the new world order, I fully expect butch-femme as we know it will become obsolete. It will take time, in-fighting, a lot of hurt feelings, before something new reflecting the new reality will emerge.

Change is hard on everyone and resisted at all costs. It is the pain/pleasure principle (principle not dynamic). My opinion is, clinging to binary system in butch femme is clinging to the known out of fear of the unknown. So, rather than work toward something new, we are seemingly trying to rehash the old. It's familiar. It's comfortable even tho it is in an uncomfortable way.

Lesbians/female id butches will fight back when they are grouped with male id's. It should be expected. Lesbians/female id's will look/go elsewhere when male id's seek to speak for or define them. It's logical. Women will react when male power and privilige negatively impacts them. It's viseral in this day and age.

It's a process and a very uncomfortable one. But what we have here is a freakin pie. Instead of 2 pieces, you cut it into three or four or five. You dont have to stab at one another or carve out one piece into many. You have to reconfigure the entire pie. It can be a win-win proposition.

We will get there. But I am not looking forward to the process.

[Apocalipstic]

Kobi, just trying to understand your very interesting second point post.

Butch and Femme will be obsolete? Do you think those of us who ID as Butch Lesbians should change to be men and Femme Lesbians should try and change to appeal to straight men or to be closer to center...in Kansas or Wyoming?

Because to me it sounds like yet again feminine women have no place in Queer society which is business as usual.

Not arguing, just wanting to understand how you see this all playing out to its logical conclusion.

[Kobi]

The last piece here is from a conversation I had recently with a Femme who didnt seem to quite get why I as a female id butch was having trouble with any of this.

Feel free to add on here.

As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question.
As a female id butch, I customarily do.

As a femme, there is never a question about her preferred pronouns.
As a butch, do I prefer her/she, hym/hy, hir, he/him etc.

As a femme, she can blend into the mainstream without question.
Even as a female id butch, I am outed on sight.

As a femme, there is no male telling her the new label of choice is "less than masculine".
As a female id butch, I am expected to accept a male telling me my new label is "masculine of center" and be happy about it!

As a femme, she has the luxury of varying the gender of her preferred partners. She might add queer to it as a qualifier.
As a butch lesbian, it's women only.

As a femme, she will always be a femme.
As a female identified butch lesbian, I am thrown into a pot with males. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with males and heterosexuality.

As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man.
As a butch I usually am.

As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man.
As a butch, I did. And with the emerging trans community, the message now comes from within rather than outside the community. Whether from within or without, the message is a slap in the face.

As a femme, she will never be too feminine.
As a female id butch, the message that I am not masculine or male enough is getting annoying.

There are reasons why female id lesbian butches have problems with being lumped in with males/masculine id's. Seem like pretty darn good ones to me.

[Medusa]

Kobi - Not picking on you but want to use your post as a jumping off point.

I think there are a couple of things going on here but first, let me address a couple of things in the examples given by your friend:

Originally Posted by Kobi

As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question.
As a female id butch, I customarily do.

**Actually, I consider "Femme" to be my gender and it's been called into question many, many times out in the straight world, and sadly, in Queer space as well.

As a femme, there is never a question about her preferred pronouns.
As a butch, do I prefer her/she, hym/hy, hir, he/him etc.

**This is mostly true. I am always referred to as "she". Don't ask me about the times when I am referred to as "Mrs." and then someone will inevitably assume my last name is my "husband's".

As a femme, she can blend into the mainstream without question.
Even as a female id butch, I am outed on sight.

**Blending into mainstream isn't something that feels good to me and I don't celebrate it. It's Femme Invisibility 101.

As a femme, there is no male telling her the new label of choice is "less than masculine".
As a female id butch, I am expected to accept a male telling me my new label is "masculine of center" and be happy about it!

**Nope, nobody telling me that I'm "less than masculine", but I'm not the "right kind of woman" by most measures of homogenous society.

As a femme, she has the luxury of varying the gender of her preferred partners. She might add queer to it as a qualifier.
As a butch lesbian, it's women only.

**Varying the gender? What does that mean? Does it mean *I* get to choose who I fuck? Or does that mean that I am choosing what pronoun to call my partner? Or are you saying that Butches don't fuck men, Transmen, or Gay boys?

As a femme, she will always be a femme.
As a female identified butch lesbian, I am thrown into a pot with males. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with males and heterosexuality.

**While I *am* always a Femme, I am often thrown into a pot with straight women. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with straight females and fetishized pornography.

As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man.
As a butch I usually am.

**I may not be mistaken for a man, but I am almost always mistaken for a straight woman (unless in Queer space)

As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man.
As a butch, I did. And with the emerging trans community, the message now comes from within rather than outside the community. Whether from within or without, the message is a slap in the face.

**As a femme, I've never been told I "just wanted to be a man" but I have been told more times than I can count that my attraction to Butches means that I "should just fuck men". That message is also a slap in the face.


As a femme, she will never be too feminine.
As a female id butch, the message that I am not masculine or male enough is getting annoying.

**Until she is. The message that I am ditzy, stupid, fluffy, a helpless babygirl, or really a straight woman who just wants her pussy eaten is also getting annoying.

I illustrate a lot of this because I think that there is a message being fed to BOTH Butches and Femmes not only by the world at large but also (as illustrated with BV) in Queer space.

The message is that until we fall in line with homogenous idealism where womenfolk need to sit their asses down and shut the fuck up, we are going to be treated with waggled fingers, a wall of silencing shushes, or heatpatting.

The message is that when we stand against it, we are "Bitches", "Feminazis", "Separatists", "Troublemakers", "Angry", "Humorless", "Crusty", or my VERY favorite..."In need of a good fucking".

The message is that we are not acceptable just the way we are.

The message is that the only "acceptable" is one that values male over female, no matter the context.

The message is that, as Butches and Femmes, we are somehow "broken".

The message is that while we are climbing over the backs of Butches and Femmes to build a Gender Mountain, we step in the face of our own history, our own spirit.

[Apocalipstic]

I get your point Kobi and don't want to lump you into anything, or take away from how difficult it is to be Butch but have to say that being Femme is not a picnic either.

While as Femme we do pass (whether or not we want to) in the straight community, we do not have a comfortable place in the LBGQIetc community.

What if as Femmes we are Lesbians and it's women for us too and the number of women who like Femmes seems to be seriously dwindling?

[Apocalipstic]

ps..and as Butch I bet you are not ever asked if your GF is your daughter even when they are the same age as you. lol

What I am saying is that we are in this together. Butches and Femmes I mean and even though we may be out of style, I think some of us will always be around.