On Maleness, MaleID/Trans Masculinity, Expectations and Being "Less of a Man"

[EnderD_503]

En lieu of the Kye Allums thread and some of the posts made therein, I wanted to start a thread on masculinity and maleness as it pertains to male identities and transmen (though this can also apply to those born biologically male and the expectations surrounding them), as well as the expectations faced as to what makes one "a man" in the modern world. More specifically, I wanted to talk about masculinity and maleness in conjunction with stereotypical feminine/female activities. People say that there is nothing wrong with a masculine/male/transguy enjoying certain traditionally "feminine"/"female" pursuits (quotations in order to emphasise that gendered pursuits are social constructs, not to attempt to make them appear lesser), or having certain characteristics, yet there still seems to be a subconscious distaste of men who perform/exist in certain spaces or express themselves in certain ways.

First of all, I just want to start by saying that bringing up some of these comments isn't me pointing fingers, trying to shame, blame or bring any such thing upon those who made similar comments or may have insinuated such suggestions. Some have taken this perspective who I have quite a bit of respect for, and hopefully they know who they are and won't see this as an act of disrespect. That isn't my intention. This is just my attempt at having a discussion about what masculinity/maleness means within the spectrum of male identities and transmen, and the idea happened to be sparked by that thread.

Yet, even up to this point with what I’ve said so far and what I’m trying to get at, I hesitate to even limit it to these two groups…if they can even be called two distinct groups to begin with…ok this plan is already failing, lol. Ah well, here goes nothing

One thing I wanted to address was the idea that a man/male/transman’s masculinity or "maleness" is somehow discredited or made less sincere if he traverses the realm of the traditionally male into the realm of the traditionally female. This may mean playing on a women’s team (in the case of those guys who were not born in male bodies and who have yet to start taking T), and more specifically wanting to play on a women’s team while not on T, giving birth prior to being on T, not taking steps to fully transition physically and legally to male while retaining a male/trans identity, stepping into female spaces or having more female friends vs. male/trans friends, enjoying using their female anatomy during sex (something, which I know is a disturbing subject for many of us, myself included, yet I still think we should avoid judging those who do as somehow lesser men/not legitimately trans/maleId), being attracted to/having sex with other masculine or male identities etc.

I guess part of the question is what does it mean to be male/a man/transman to you as a male/man/transman? What do you think it means within society, within the LGBT community and within various generations?

I think its time to challenge some of those meanings and perceptions, because I think they can, are and will be damaging to the present and future of those whose psychological sex is not congruent with biological sex. Being male is just as diverse as being female within the LGBT spectrum, imo, and should be respected as such, not alienated and demonised. I know that for a long time I didn't see this or understand this entirely, and only considered things male/masculine that I considered as such according to my own interests in congruence with my own identity, and according to my own experiences. But having witnessed the diversity within the trans/male id community, I ask why I even care that others aren't like me, consider male/masculine what I don't consider male/masculine, and why a guy gives birth, why a guy doesn't start taking T the minute he admits to himself who he truly is, why a guy has sex with other guys.

The truth is, I don't care, nor judge them, and I realise that all the negative thoughts/beliefs I had regarding guys (and this including biological males who were "feminine") who did these things when I was younger was because I somehow thought that their identity/expression would somehow damage my own worldview on what is male and female, masculine and feminine, and that somehow that would damage my own expression of maleness/masculinity.

Then I sat myself down, so to speak, and thought about why that was, the root of my self-identification as a male, why I had such an intense feeling of being male since as long as I could remember, and how that came together with my own, as well as society’s ideas on what is masculine/feminine. I, for the first time, really (and I mean really, not just a passing, "yeah, yeah I get it whatever" kind of thing that people say just to get others off their backs) understood that my "masculine" interests, expressions, communications, appearance and actions were not the source of that feeling of maleness. These things had nothing to do with being male/a man/whatever. It was just the process of identification that goes on in the brain, that many who are not trans/related id don't seem to fully get. When you picture yourself, think of yourself, you think "he," you have an image of a male. That male could look like anything, he could be doing anything, saying anything, it doesn't matter. That male could be giving birth, that male could be a football player on a men's team or women's team, he could be attracted to other men, he could be a construction worker, he could be the most "macho" or the most "feminine" guy on the planet…it doesn't matter what he does or where he exists, because in his brain his identification is male.

For some reason, when something pertains to the human brain, people think it is less legitimate than what they see in front of them. Yet science comes closer and closer to showing us that there is a reason for this identification of male/female/other, and that reason lies in the brain, which is gendered before a child is even born. So why can't we respect that?

Yet why do we see a transman as less legitimate if he’s given birth? As though somehow his individual expression has a negative impact on the way other transmen are seen? I was watching a youtube video a while back where one guy (biologically female, but identified as a man/male and fully nearly fully "transitioned") in his 20’s was saying that he was upset with the portrayal of the transgender character in the L Word (don't remember the guy's name since I don’t watch the L Word), and more specifically because the writers had the transguy become pregnant. I understand why this would upset many transguys, and the idea of such a thing happening to myself disturbs me greatly. Yet I recognise that it disturbs me because of my own identity…yet what does my identity have to do with the many transguys out there who have had children before they began their transition, or even after their transition?

Why does my masculinity have to rely on the masculinity of others? Why do others think it does? I certainly don't look down on them and don't see why anyone else should view them as lesser men, and don't see them as impacting my own masculinity or legitimacy at all. Why are we so adamant, in a community that claims to support gender fluidity and diversity, that everyone stick to certain so-called biologically natural roles. It seems that it's gender fluidity/diversity only within a certain spectrum…to the point where we even box up what constitutes as acceptable within the realm of fluidity and diversity. Flexibility/diversity only to the extent to which we are comfortable. Yet, to me, challenging these ideas is not about personal comfort, it's about understanding that change sometimes means you have to be painfully uncomfortable for progress to occur.

About a year or more ago, researchers found that they could create sperm out of adult female stem cells and eggs out of adult male stem cells (and viceversa, hence how it would help infertile couples, as well as same sex couples). The primary kink in the plan was that the female sperm would only be able to produce female children, due to the lack of a Y chromosome. Yet it seemed recently they were coming closer to being able to coax chromosomal mutation, from XX to XY. Many cried out that this was "unnatural," that it was "playing god." I disagree, and I don't think that anything humanity or any animal is capable of is "unnatural." If nature provides the tools with which to do it, then it is natural. Is what is "natural" (which is quite literally everything possible) really what is "good"? But what is "good," and according to whom and why?

What happens when male pregnancy is actually attempted and successful? What happens when biological females are able to produce their own sperm? What of transmen like Thomas Beatie? To me, it doesn’t really matter, because the original source of the sense of one's sex/gender is always there in the brain, and is disconnected, imo, from one's actions and crossovers into the realm of the opposite sex/gender.

I guess the main point is this: even if it is not something we would do, or the way we see ourselves, why should we negatively judge those who truly bend the barriers of the binary so many claim to reject? Again, I can't help but feel that it is related to the liberal "push the boundaries, but only push them so far" approach.

Definitely interested in hearing of other guys journeys regarding their own sense of gender/sex in relatation to others etc.

Thoughts?

[The_Lady_Snow]

wanna know what I get fucking tired of

Hearing how fucking disturbing my sex is or the sex that guys choose to have with their partners if it doesn't fit the fucking right kind of guy sex box.

You want to have a candid conversation about this subject how about you stop saying sex is disturbing just cause you can't wrap your fucking mind around it.

Unreal!!!!

I say more power to guys who like to be fucked, and I say more power to guys who like having sex with guys, it's not disturbing it's people enjoying sex.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

wanna know what I get fucking tired of

Hearing how fucking disturbing my sex is or the sex that guys choose to have with their partners if it doesn't fit the fucking right kind of guy sex box.

You want to have a candid conversation about this subject how about you stop saying sex is disturbing just cause you can't wrap your fucking mind around it.

Unreal!!!!

I say more power to guys who like to be fucked, and I say more power to guys who like having sex with guys, it's not disturbing it's people enjoying sex.

Did you mean to post this in this thread?

[EnderD_503]

LadySnow, I think you didn't get my point. While I admitted that I found certain things disturbing to myself according to my experience and identity, the whole point of my post and thread was to say that I, along with others, should be challenging what they find disturbing, asking themselves why they feel this way, and that they should stop using the actions of others as the marker by which they create their own gender. That we should effectively cease to see certain people as "lesser men"/"less masculine" just because of the way society/one's surroundings and personal perspectives has come to formulate what is masculine/feminine/male/female etc.

So yes, you are absolutely right, however, I think you took one part of my post out of its context since that is not what I was saying at all. Please see my comments in the context of the entire post.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

wanna know what I get fucking tired of

Hearing how fucking disturbing my sex is or the sex that guys choose to have with their partners if it doesn't fit the fucking right kind of guy sex box.

You want to have a candid conversation about this subject how about you stop saying sex is disturbing just cause you can't wrap your fucking mind around it.

Unreal!!!!

I say more power to guys who like to be fucked, and I say more power to guys who like having sex with guys, it's not disturbing it's people enjoying sex.

[BullDog]

Men/males who act or present themselves in ways outside of what is considered to be socially accepted for men/males are seen as "less than" (feminine) because this is a sexist world where men are way over valued over women. It's sexism.

[Jesse]

Yet it happens in the queer communities very often.

Originally Posted by BullDog

Men/males who act or present themselves in ways outside of what is considered to be socially accepted for men/males are seen as "less than" (feminine) because this is a sexist world where men are way over valued over women. It's sexism.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Tranzman

Yet it happens in the queer communities very often.

Yes, queer communities are also full of sexist attitudes.

[Apocalipstic]

I am very interestrd ion knowing ay what point men become Men. Is it when they say they do?

What separates men and women?

Is there a difference?

If men can play on womens teams and have babies...is gender important at all?

I sincerely am asking.

[BullDog]

To me, the question of whether a man should play on a women's basketball team has nothing to do with being viewed as lesser than a man for doing so. So I don't place that in the same category as say, a man who likes to knit or is sexually submissive or other types of activities which often makes men seen as less than.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by BullDog

To me, the question of whether a man should play on a women's basketball team has nothing to do with being viewed as lesser than a man for doing so. So I don't place that in the same category as say, a man who likes to knit or is sexually submissive or other types of activities which often makes men seen as less than.

I agree, knitting and playing on a Womens team is 2 very different things!

[Jesse]

Hi Jen and Bully,

I am curious as to how each of you sees this as 2 very different things. Would you explain this please?

Thank you,

Jesse

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I agree, knitting and playing on a Womens team is 2 very different things!

Originally Posted by BullDog

To me, the question of whether a man should play on a women's basketball team has nothing to do with being viewed as lesser than a man for doing so. So I don't place that in the same category as say, a man who likes to knit or is sexually submissive or other types of activities which often makes men seen as less than.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Tranzman

Hi Jen and Bully,

I am curious as to how each of you sees this as 2 very different things. Would you explain this please?

Thank you,

Jesse

I have read Ender's first post several times. I think what he is getting at is that males/men shouldn't be seen as "less than" if they do not fit into the social norms of what a man/male is supposed to look like, act like, have sex, etc. I agree.

I think if anyone judges a man/male due to them presenting in ways or liking things that are traditionally associated with women or the feminine and being seen as less than- then I think that is completely invalid and is due to sexism.

But Ender also throws in things like a man playing on a woman's team. When I read transmen's comments on that, I saw them as recognizing the privilege involved and also as a man they would want to play with their peers- not that they saw Kye as less of a man for playing on a woman's team. To me those are two entirely different things.

I can also see why Snow is upset because there is quite a bit in that post about female bodies being viewed as squeamish in some ways. And no I didn't misunderstand you Ender. I think someone can identify with being male without the ick factor of the female. I am a female and woman, and although I love children have never wanted to bear a child. However, I have no ick factor about it. I have no ick factor about male bodies even though I don't want to have one and am not sexually attracted to them.

[waxnrope]

Hey Ender,
Thanks for the thread. You've hit upon something that I've been thinking about. At least I think there are some similarities. Your post was a bit long ... not complaining, but I'm reading it on a cell phone. What was triggered as I read it was the notion of the slow erasure of gender identities. A crossing of la frontera, the borders becoming less distinct. From these thoughts, I moved into the ideas posited in the utopic fiction of Octavia Butler. Again, in her work, there is this amalgam of identities. A shredding of old constructs.

I find these ideas both alluring and somewhat scary. I think that one's identity is, FOR SOME, built along the socially constructed models. It is then, comfortable. One knows what is expected. But, I too do not conform in its entirety, hence my own self deprecating description as a faggy butch (actually first called that by some gay male friends and adopted it). Yet, if I do not fit into the masculinist mold entirely, how many others do not? But before I say more, can you let me know if I have at least touched upon your musings.

[Jesse]

Thanks for answering BullDog. Speaking for myself, I do not have any ick factors around being a woman, it's just not who/what I am.

However, when I was forced to live as a female I definitely had some ick factors happening inside of me, simply because it did not feel wanted or natural for me to have breasts, and constantly be told I wasn't good enough because I did not embrace womanhood as I was suppose to. These ick factors were akin to having an unwanted growth, being told you can't be gay, being told you should be femme or butch etc. and not because I dislike women. I do not dislike women, I value them greatly for many reasons.

Jesse

Originally Posted by BullDog

I have read Ender's first post several times. I think what he is getting at is that males/men shouldn't be seen as "less than" if they do not fit into the social norms of what a man/male is supposed to look like, act like, have sex, etc. I agree.

I think if anyone judges a man/male due to them presenting in ways or liking things that are traditionally associated with women or the feminine and being seen as less than- then I think that is completely invalid and is due to sexism.

But Ender also throws in things like a man playing on a woman's team. When I read transmen's comments on that, I saw them as recognizing the privilege involved and also as a man they would want to play with their peers- not that they saw Kye as less of a man for playing on a woman's team. To me those are two entirely different things.

I can also see why Snow is upset because there is quite a bit in that post about female bodies being viewed as squeamish in some ways. And no I didn't misunderstand you Ender. I think someone can identify with being male without the ick factor of the female. I am a female and woman, and although I love children have never wanted to bear a child. However, I have no ick factor about it. I have no ick factor about male bodies even though I don't want to have one and am not sexually attracted to them.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I have read Ender's first post several times. I think what he is getting at is that males/men shouldn't be seen as "less than" if they do not fit into the social norms of what a man/male is supposed to look like, act like, have sex, etc. I agree.

<snip>
I can also see why Snow is upset because there is quite a bit in that post about female bodies being viewed as squeamish in some ways. And no I didn't misunderstand you Ender. I think someone can identify with being male without the ick factor of the female. I am a female and woman, and although I love children have never wanted to bear a child. However, I have no ick factor about it. I have no ick factor about male bodies even though I don't want to have one and am not sexually attracted to them.

I am in agreement on the first portion of this response which addresses the overall hypothesis of the original post.

However, I didn't read Ender's post as containing any "ick" factor regarding being female, other than that when one feels born in the wrong body, there is a lot that feels disconnected, out of sync, just fucking wrong. Add to that societal expectations and the ways we have to deconstruct those as we sort out the consciousness of who we want to be (which I believe is precisely what the OP is attempting to share). I believe it is the same revulsion a male to female transsexual would feel at her male body. But then, as one who doesn't live daily with this disconnect, I wouldn't expect you to understand that, from either FTM or MTF perspective.

Which is to say, you might not have misunderstood Ender, but you completely missed the point, which is the very basis of the transgendered/sexed life experience.

[BullDog]

I see many trans guys describing themselves and their experiences without the ick factor and many who do.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I see many trans guys describing themselves and their experiences without the ick factor and many who do.

I am in full agreement that no one should denigrate "female" (or male, for that matter) regardless of how horrific is their personal experience, that's a case by case situation, and those "trans guys" should be educated.

It's really fucked up to be living in the wrong body. I wouldn't expect you to understand. No amount of projection will allow anyone who doesn't experience it to understand.

So I think it's really important to separate someone's personal "ick" and "squeamishness" from reading/hearing their words to mean an generalized attack on the feminine and female (which is not to say it doesn't happen, and this is where we need to educate and correct).

I don't participate much in these threads anymore because it feels like I'm supposed to pull down my pants, or talk about deeply personal shit in order to validate my experiences. It's GROSS, man and I'm not doing it.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I am in full agreement that no one should denigrate "female" (or male, for that matter) regardless of how horrific is their personal experience, that's a case by case situation, and those "trans guys" should be educated.

It's really fucked up to be living in the wrong body. I wouldn't expect you to understand. No amount of projection will allow anyone who doesn't experience it to understand.

So I think it's really important to separate personal "ick" and "squeamishness" from reading/hearing someone's words to mean an generalized attack on the feminine and female.

I don't participate much in these threads anymore because it feels like I'm supposed to pull down my pants, or talk about deeply personal shit in order to validate my experiences. It's GROSS, man and I'm not doing it.

Yes, I would say we are in full agreement that neither the female or male should be denigrated.

No I don't know what it is like to live in the wrong body. I have never claimed that I did.

I personally do believe I belong in a female body and fully claim woman as my gender, but I am a stone butch and don't relate to having breasts, I have a cock (which is not a penis and not a toy), so I have my own issues and ways of relating to my body in non-typical female/woman ways. They may be small potatoes compared to being in the wrong body, but the parts of myself that I don't relate to I don't think of as ick.

I don't think you should have to pull down your pants or talk about anything you don't feel like discussing. I don't do much of that myself.

[The_Lady_Snow]

When there is a thread about the value of man, and a man admits he finds sex that involves a man using his body for pleasure "disturbing", it makes my brain implode,

A. Because the essence of man is not between their legs

B. It's not in how they fuck

C. Man fucks the end

Oh btw receiver does not equate bottom nor submissive.

[weatherboi]

i think this conversation might fair better if we take the aspect of sex equating maleness out of it and equate all around behavior and decision making to maleness. also, i am certain we can all agree that assigning gender to life activities doesn't really work in this community either. take the physical away and focus on mental. like values, ethics, morals and all around building blocks that lead to a life that embodies a good person male or female.

when i started mentally recognizing my maleness it came in the form of studying the other male role models around me. i knew at a very young age that a good person in a male body works hard, treats people with respect no matter who they are, has faith by giving the benefit of the doubt to the fellow human being, shows loyalty to friends and family, and goes down fighting no matter what. when i got older i learned certain social ettiquettes among guys, little unwritten rules of engagement when out and about. this to me is what has helped evolve me into the guy i am today...mentally.

my masculinity certainly doesn't rely on the acceptance of my peers. what some other transguy or male id'd person thinks of my maleness really holds no weight with me. what holds weight with my fellow peers would be that they find me trustworthy, loyal, a person of my word, and all around good person that has an intention to make a positive impact.

when speaking of the ick factor Ender wasn't talking about his revulsion about his body. he was talking specifically about guys that have learned to have a healthy relationship with there bodies as a"disturbing". this is a very strong and negative term to use when describing others. he admitted it himself. now i personally dont give a shit what others think of my preferences but if we are gonna have an honest conversation lets not admit to something then take it back, because the problem doesnt lie in the fact that i am ok with my female parts, the problem is people judging me for it and finding it "disturbing". i am personally proud of the fact that i took control of my female body to enjoy it while i have it.

i read Enders post as denigrating transguys/male id'd guys that are ok with their body parts and using them during sex, not Ender denigrating ffemmes,females, or female id'd people.

i was born in the wrong body, but i am not the type of man to be held back by that because my body doesn't define me.