"Stud" versus "Butch"

[Reader]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I think there is a difference between terminology and appropriation. One is the use of language to clearly define, the other is the taking without regard for another's culture. I also think that perhaps these kids need to respect folks culture and not just take what is not theirs.

I love the word "appropriation". I think I will borrow it, maybe tweak it a tad for my uses and move on.

OK, I'm being silly(ish) to make a point: what about the natural instinct of all creatures to use what fits and works better? I've heard it called the "100th Monkey" effect.

I prefer the term "100th Monkey Thing" myself.

I suspect that part of what some call cultural stealing is really just the 100th Monkey Thing.

[weatherboi]

Ohhhhh I didnt realize thay had another term for white privilege now...thanks for updating us on this sillyish point you are trying to make...read loud and clear.

Originally Posted by Reader

I love the word "appropriation". I think I will borrow it, maybe tweak it a tad for my uses and move on.

OK, I'm being silly(ish) to make a point: what about the natural instinct of all creatures to use what fits and works better? I've heard it called the "100th Monkey" effect.

I prefer the term "100th Monkey Thing" myself.

I suspect that part of what some call cultural stealing is really just the 100th Monkey Thing.

[Reader]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Ohhhhh I didnt realize thay had another term for white privilege now...thanks for updating us on this sillyish point you are trying to make...read loud and clear.

With all due respect, wb, do you really believe that what I posted has anything at all to do with white privilege?

And why do you assume I am WHITE?

[weatherboi]

Did I say you were white??? Where?? I am talking about the video and peoples defense of the girl in it.

Originally Posted by Reader

With all due respect, wb, do you really believe that what I posted has anything at all to do with white privilege?

And why do you assume I am WHITE?

[Reader]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Did I say you were white??? Where?? I am talking about the video and peoples defense of the girl in it.

But, seriously, I want to know where in my post it implies or references anything about white privilege? I am not asking you this because I wish to engage in fighting with you or annoying you. I actually want to know.

[weatherboi]

I am clear on the 100th monkey effect when we are speaking of large groups of people but I don't see it applying here culturally. I was pointing white privilege to what the conversation was speaking of before not your scientific deflection.

Originally Posted by Reader

But, seriously, I want to know where in my post it implies or references anything about white privilege? I am not asking you this because I wish to engage in fighting with you or annoying you. I actually want to know.

[Reader]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

I am clear on the 100th monkey effect when we are speaking of large groups of people but I don't see it applying here culturally. I was pointing white privilege to what the conversation was speaking of before not your scientific deflection.

Ah. I see. Thanks for explaining that.

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

QoS there were plenty of posts that were educational for the OP, she even stated so.

I agree, and that is sort of what my point was. There WERE posts (replies to her question) that helped to educate her; I'm all for that.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

The last You Tube video wasn't conducive to the conversation that had been had.

Agreed, although I think it *could have* had some value to the discussion if there had been some narrative to go along with it from the poster, like "And then we have this kind of crap.... obviously this girl needs some education on the larger GLBTQ community!" It could have been used as an example of what goes wrong when people are NOT educated.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

All it did was stir up up shit. Then when there was a WTF response by me I was taken to task for reacting in the manner I did, mind you I was not the ONLY one that was like WTF, yet I am the one singled out because of my WTF matter of fact I got accused of bullying

So at this point it's tiring to continue to have to put in any more effort, because every fucking time I do someone, somewhere, and they are generally white come an tell me I am to LOUD, TO AGGRESSIVE, I'm a BULLY it goes on and on and on.

Trust me, as someone who has gotten her fair share of "you're a bitch" because I speak my mind, I know it gets old, and it can derail us from saying what we really want to say.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I don't care how the convo goes now, it isn't like anyone is going to listen anyway to what Stud, Aggressives, Machas are. It's obvious.

I disagree. I think people are listening/reading, and I think your contributions to the thread were received in different ways by different people - that's par for the course, but I still think it's valuable.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I'm not as patient as you

You caught me on a good day

[Martina]

Cultural appropriation happens no matter how we feel about it. We can get institutions to change the names of their sports teams, but we can't change the way young people talk.

People have always appropriated the African American culture. Some African-American kids push back. There was a BIG argument in my class once between, in this case, Latinos and African-Americans about the use of the n-word. Partly because it is such a nasty pejorative. But also because it's an appropriation. African-American kids were saying why do you have to try to sound like us. Latino kids were saying, we aren't. We sound like us.

One Latino kid acknowledged that it was an appropriation and added he had never seen African American kids adopt the words, music or fashion of Latinos (I have), but that Latinos did it all the time. He had internalized this as Latino cultures being backward and unworthy of appropriation ( ). It was an interesting conversation. Anyway kids are aware they are appropriating all the time and have different feelings about it.

I do think that white people need to be more careful, but it's nearly impossible to police the language, clothing, music, and well. . . just the behavior of teenagers.

I take the girl in the video seriously as a lesbian. I don't discredit her as a queer. As a white person, I wish she at least acknowledged that the term was taken from other cultures, that she and her friends are white and are using it the way they do. But in a way that's self-evident.

Is she an obnoxious privileged white girl? For sure. Is she also using language and living as queer in a completely real and authentic way for her? Without a doubt.

[julieisafemme]

She did acknowledge that the term stud was used to describe African American lesbians who were masculine. Then she described how she viewed the term. She seemed to be quite aware that people had a problem with the way she used the terms and was quite clear she did not care. It seemed to be why she made the video in the first place.

That is what bothered me about it.

Originally Posted by Martina

Cultural appropriation happens no matter how we feel about it. We can get institutions to change the names of their sports teams, but we can't change the way young people talk.

People have always appropriated the African American culture. Some African-American kids push back. There was a BIG argument in my class once between, in this case, Latinos and African-Americans about the use of the n-word. Partly because it is such a nasty pejorative. But also because it's an appropriation. African-American kids were saying why do you have to try to sound like us. Latino kids were saying, we aren't. We sound like us.

One Latino kid acknowledged that it was an appropriation and added he had never seen African American kids adopt the words, music or fashion of Latinos (I have), but that Latinos did it all the time. He had internalized this as Latino cultures being backward and unworthy of appropriation ( ). It was an interesting conversation. Anyway kids are aware they are appropriating all the time and have different feelings about it.

I do think that white people need to be more careful, but it's nearly impossible to police the language, clothing, music, and well. . . just the behavior of teenagers.

I take the girl in the video seriously as a lesbian. I don't discredit her as a queer. As a white person, I wish she at least acknowledged that the term was taken from other cultures, that she and her friends are white and are using it the way they do. But in a way that's self-evident.

Is she an obnoxious privileged white girl? For sure. Is she also using language and living as queer in a completely real and authentic way for her? Without a doubt.

[Martina]

Ah. Explains the defensiveness. I can see your point.

[Electrocell]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

She did acknowledge that the term stud was used to describe African American lesbians who were masculine. Then she described how she viewed the term. She seemed to be quite aware that people had a problem with the way she used the terms and was quite clear she did not care. It seemed to be why she made the video in the first place.

That is what bothered me about it.

This pompous young lady did this on youtube meaning you can go click the like or dislike button so maybe by clicking the dislike button she might get the message that what she said isn't acceptable or leave a comment on it . If there is enough negative feedback maybe then it will be removed.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Electrocell

This pompous young lady did this on youtube meaning you can go click the like or dislike button so maybe by clicking the dislike button she might get the message that what she said isn't acceptable or leave a comment on it . If there is enough negative feedback maybe then it will be removed.

I wish I had that much faith in YouTube. I reported the video my kid watched and left a comment and disliked it and nothing happened.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

She did acknowledge that the term stud was used to describe African American lesbians who were masculine. Then she described how she viewed the term. She seemed to be quite aware that people had a problem with the way she used the terms and was quite clear she did not care. It seemed to be why she made the video in the first place.

That is what bothered me about it.

Me too. One clue was the *don't tell me i'm wrong* over and over.

To me that's a clear message that they are not willing to learn. A total F-you to the rest of the world who find her words offensive and hurtful.

And it's not just the gal in the video.

i used to deny my white privilege because i grew up with and have mixed race family. That doesn't excuse me.

[Julien]

I've been reading the thread and I wanted to voice my perspective on education. Education is my business in that I teach LGBT Studies and Women's Studies. It has been my experience that people new to Feminism and/or being LGBT want to absorb it so quickly and can come off being offensive at times for the lack of knowledge they have about themselves and the topic. It is also possible for those of us in the know are still learning. I know I am learning every day and that is a good thing because I am not standing still but growing in knowledge and understanding of myself. For those who want to learn, it is their eagerness I respect. I enjoy teaching those who want to learn and find it fulfilling to see them grow in their confidence and knowledge. However, there is another side who I don't teach directly because they never want to learn about us. All I can do is "teach" by being who I am and maybe, possibly they can learn from that. We cannot reach those who don't want to learn and I believe it is up to us to teach the ones that do. Of course it all comes to who wants to do what and how far we want to go in that giving of knowledge. This is a very individual task to take on. For the discussion, I too have gone to the internet and to books to gain as much knowledge as I can, but it is also so very helpful to gain real life experience from my community and that is invaluable. I appreciate the cautious steps as much as those who go in with both feet, as someone wrote, because it illustrates to me their need for knowledge and who am I to deny it when I have the tools and the want to teach. It is what I do.

[Girl_On_Fire]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I think it is the approach, hence why *I* personally have issues with people not doing their own homework. When *I* first started coming to sites like this I did a whole lot of reading and did some self discovery. *I* don't like looking like an idiot.

Not everybody learns that way though, Corkey. In my style of learning, for example, I learn much better by interaction with others rather than reading text. This could possibly be because I'm extremely right-brained but I do not readily absorb information unless it's presented to me in a creative way. That's just my learning style, it has nothing to do with laziness or not caring.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Girl_On_Fire

Not everybody learns that way though, Corkey. In my style of learning, for example, I learn much better by interaction with others rather than reading text. This could possibly be because I'm extremely right-brained but I do not readily absorb information unless it's presented to me in a creative way. That's just my learning style, it has nothing to do with laziness or not caring.

Never said either you were lazy or non caring. It isn't up to me to educate the masses, nor is it up to POC to educate the masses. I think if folks are interested it is up to them to educate themselves. And with this I am done. Have a good evening.

[Girl_On_Fire]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Never said either you were lazy or non caring. It isn't up to me to educate the masses, nor is it up to POC to educate the masses. I think if folks are interested it is up to them to educate themselves. And with this I am done. Have a good evening.

And I never said you implied I was lazy. However, from your (and others) suggestion that people need to "educate themselves", it makes it seem as though you are implying laziness or not caring on the part of anyone who would reach out to others for answers versus learning on their own. I cannot do that very successfully and I'm sure I'm not alone. Reaching out to patient others who are willing to see and understand my genuine confusion and ignorance are really the only people whom I can safely and successfully learn from.

I didn't mean to start anything serious by asking this question but I'm glad it turned into a serious discussion. I've lead an incredibly sheltered life (and not good sheltered, more like ignored/dismissed/abused sheltered so please don't read privileged into that because I've worked hard for every scrap of knowledge I've ever managed to pull from people because I have a developmental/learning disorder.)

My point is, everybody comes from a different place and has a different story. It's not what others do or say or believe, to me, it's how you respond to them. If anybody thinks someone is being a jerk or rude or lazy or trying to start something because they ask a question, then that is their perception. This is a big pet peeve of mine because I've been chronically dismissed since childhood for asking what I believed (and still believe) to be innocent questions while trying to learn about the world around me. While that's my own personal issue and has nothing to do with you or this discussion, it's important to keep in mind that everybody's brain works differently and their experiences shape how they view the world. They may truly not at all understand your response to their question or confusion and a more sensitive person may run away and burrow deeper into their own solitude for fear of other's reactions to them.

Thankfully, a bit of age and wisdom has taught me not to run and hide, but to explain and discuss as rationally as my current emotions allow in any given situation.

[Corkey]

Not interested. Thanks but I've had my say. I will not be pulled back in.

[aishah]

sorry, i was away for the last two days w/no internet or i would have jumped in...i'm super grateful for folks' posts, especially snow, corkey, and chino. snow already said all there is to be said on the subject of education. apparently it needs repeating, though.

i just wanted to address, re: "being a resource" - i like being a resource for people. i love teaching (and for that matter learning). i love being able to give people information and links. i also take on that role professionally a lot when doing accessibility work - coordinating people and resources.

but too often women, esp poc, and indigenous folks are expected to "be resources" - well, you know what happens to resources? resources get USED UP and commodified and misused and appropriated and stolen and wasted. particularly used up.

i'm a human being, not a resource.

in my opinion at least as an indigenous woman who's been stuck in the resource position (and sometimes chosen it, too), expecting people - especially marginalized folks - to be a resource is dehumanizing. (in addition to the learning issues.) because not only do we have to be a resource for the new white lesbian girls but we also have to be experts on how to assimilate to white culture without completely being destroyed (and the experts on everything white culture in general), plus, you know, have lives and stuff too.