FTM's Attracted to Femmes

[Novelafemme]

i don't want to speak for apretty, but i do think i get what she is saying. when using verbiage like "high" when referencing how one identifies as a person it automatically inserts a value or a hierarchical measure of worth. "high femme" vs "femme" has the potential to connote superiority amongst the femme community which can then lead to judgement based on a heteronormative standard of beauty and self-worth. it's all pretty darned normal, but in the queer community i think many of us are working to eliminate potentially destructive binaries...especially ones of a heteronormative nature. that being said, i think most of us are evolved enough to appreciate and honor a femme who id's as a "high femme" and allow her the opportunity to move around in and explore a space that represents who and what she is...just as long as she extends that same respect to others.

for me it's all about mutual respect. i don't feel threatened by a high femme because i am comfortable as i am...which is a crazy blend of everything!

[apretty]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Could you say that second paragraph a different way? I am struggling with following you here...want to make sure I am reading you correctly.

I mean to say that there's been a lot of talk on the subject of femininity and what people call, 'high maintenance'.

There's the ways that our masculine-counterparts (generalizing, here) have said that they see femme/are attracted to femme when it's presented in heels/stockings/skirt: Which only fucks with everyone's head because that's not the reality of anyone, 24/7.

There's the ways that a femme we'll start a thread on 'high' femme and we'll get a laundry list of her heels/stockings/skirt--Or better, a photograph of a foot in a black heel, in a black stocking and a hem of a skirt.

Then, only slightly related, there's the ways that 'high-maintenance' is thrown around. We feel compelled to defend against it (or for it) like hot-potato that no one really wants to be left holding. When in reality it's another way to slap a label and grade on our ass and by that, a value. No thanks for that.

I said heternormative, earlier because I think that Queer is a thinking-community: I know, that's a bold statement but I stand by it.

[SweetJane]

I have never been high maintenance---ever in any sense of the word. And I'm not exactly high femme, though I can pull out all the stops for a special occasion.

But I am femme most assuredly. It really is an attitude.

I think that in years past I didn't invest in myself as I do now. And that's necessary. Anyone, but especially a femme, needs to have clothes they love and that fit and flatter, personal products (makeup, perfume, hair products---as you guys have your favorites) that make them feel confident and special, and whatever else that enhances her (or hys/his) self-esteem. Though we don't need that to produce our own personal strut or swagger, they do help.

High maintenance (financial or emotional) can impact a relationship IF the person (femme or butch/ftm/man) puts her (or hys/his) needs/wants first to the point that the other person feels used or discounted. Drama factors into this as well.

The accoutrements of a person's personal style shouldn't control a person's behavior.

Femme does not equal high maintenance. High femme shouldn't either. But society expects the cost to be high because we assume that it takes a lot of work to be attractive. Well, some people look amazing with just soap and water. It's an inner beauty that comes through.

And many of us femmes will be very frugal with the elements of our personal style, caring for our clothes, handbags, shoes, and being very economical with our makeup and scents. We know how much they cost and it is our decisions to take a part of our paychecks to replace them as we are able. I would NEVER expect someone else to pay my expenses in any fashion.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I have make up on my hair did an old sweat shir pj bottoms and flip flops..

Would this be considered "high femme"?

Why not just Femme cause that's wha I am.. High to me perpetuates hierarchy. There is NO hierarchy in Femme we just are..

I would consider you beautiful, even if your hair was in curlers, you hadn't had a pedi in a year and you had a smudge of mustard on your cheek.

Here's how I see the whole hierarchy/high femme/etc thing:

There's a balance to the Universe. It's not so bad to say someone's a 'high femme', except that...in saying that....you are implying that someone else has to be a 'low femme' and who the Hell wants to have LOW in their flippin' identity???

I'm not so against labels or descriptions or adjectives of pleasure to describe members of our community, but then again, I like order and things to be nice and neat and compartmentalized.

It's when we use terms that may or may not describe someone innocently while kicking someone else, whether intentional or not. To push someone 'up', someone else is pushed 'down'.

I wish our community would adapt new descriptors. We have the power and the intelligence to do so. When that happens, I'm going to be a fucking unicorn femme. Let's see someone make THAT a bad thing.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I have make up on my hair did an old sweat shir pj bottoms and flip flops..

Would this be considered "high femme"?

Why not just Femme cause that's wha I am.. High to me perpetuates hierarchy. There is NO hierarchy in Femme we just are..

I guess for me, it is how someone uses the term "high femme". If people are saying a "high femme" is the type of femme all femmes should strive to be, or is better than any other type of femme, than to me they are talking hierarchies and I do struggle with seeing that as a good thing. If they are just using it as a way to describe what kind of femme they are, then I don't see that as them defining themselves any differently than a femme who describes herself as a "sporty femme". Just a different type of femme. That is how I see the term being used in a "neutral" way....it is being used as a descriptor then, with no value judgement attached to it.

To me it reminds me of the Episcopal church. I think there is something like High and Low Episcopal churches? The "high" ones are more similar to Catholic and the "low" ones are more similar to Prostestant in their thinking/services. (Or something like that? Person an Episcopalian could explain it better). Neither is better than the other, just different.

I think the problem is the name. "High" often means better in our society.

----------------------

ETA: I am now remembering femmes saying that in the past b-f culture supported a hierarchy of high femme being something all femmes should strive to be. Is this accurate? Is that still the case today? I am curious to hear from femmes on this.

[DapperButch]

Perhaps I could have just read Gemme's post and then thanked her instead of writing a post with similar points.

(not saying she agrees with me/said the esxact same thing, I am just saying that her post would have saved me some thinking and subsequent posting time)

[blush]

Originally Posted by Electrocell

If you will reread what I said ---I said I was not saying this to be nasty ----just bringing up another point of view.

Cloaking comments with "I don't mean to be nasty" and following it with something offensive is still offensive. Why would you state an opinion that is offensive and not yours? Obviously you expected it to get negative responses or you wouldn't have cloaked it with "not to be nasty" comment.

[Leigh]

Hi everyone, just came to wish you all a wonderful 2012

[Quintease]

I have no interest in being High femme.

And low femme makes me think of blowjobs for some reason

[Kaison]

I'm not sure it has ever occurred to me to date a butch or ftm I've always been into femmes.

[1ladyface]

High femme doesn't necessarily mean high maintenance. I keep myself high-femmified on my own with no assistance from my partner. I would never ask my partner to do my hair and makeup etc because I am self sufficient. And because that would be a disaster.

I really don't like the term high maintenance at all. I think it makes women question themselves and their needs which are usually perfectly reasonable. I love and respect my partners. And I'll only date someone who who loves and respects me. In my world that includes emotional maturity, communication skills and chivalry. I certainly hope that wouldn't earn me the "high maintenance" label. And I'd never expect my partner to pay my way or buy me expensive things. In fact, that would (and does) make me really uncomfortable.

My favorite Valentines day my partner and I were both underemployed and broke. I did the laundry in the morning after he'd gone to work and spelled out I love you in sweatsocks on the bed. He made a chicken and rice dinner that night and cut canned cranberry sauce rounds into hearts. We couldn't be fancy but we could still be good to each other.

[1ladyface]

And I thought the alternative to high femme was femme. Or vice versa. I've never heard anyone self-identify as low femme. Am I wrong? Are there self identified low femmes out there?

[Library_girl]

Originally Posted by Gemme

It's when we use terms that may or may not describe someone innocently while kicking someone else, whether intentional or not. To push someone 'up', someone else is pushed 'down'.

I wish our community would adapt new descriptors. We have the power and the intelligence to do so. When that happens, I'm going to be a fucking unicorn femme. Let's see someone make THAT a bad thing.

This thread is really interesting to me, especially since I label myself as High Femme. First, I think a lot of us would say that we get to define our own labels. At least, that's what I like to think. The term "high femme" is an old term, as far as I know. To me, High Femme means really femme, extra femme, super femme, lots o' femme goin' on. And to me, it gives a little hint of old school, which is also part of my identity. In my mind, it DOES NOT mean "high maintenance" at all. I agree that high maintenance is a negative term that conjures up thoughts of someone, anyone of any identity, who requires a great amount of attention and care, be that emotional, financial, sexual, or all of the above. Anyone can be high maintenance, and it has nothing to do with High Femme. It's just a coincidence that the word High appears in both.

Also, in my opinion, calling someone or yourself a High Femme does not push that femme "upwards" to a higher level of femme-ness. There is no Femme Summer Camp (although that would be so fun!) or Femme Graduation, or Femme PhD. (If such a thing is ever invented, I want one!)

Moreover, I feel that High Femme does not suggest that there is a lower form of femme. It's interesting that so many people see things in those dichotomous terms. If this thing is high, there must be a low. If this thing is big, there must be a small. That's just not always the case. Sometimes something just IS.

We do have the power to adapt new descriptors, and we already have. Twenty-something years ago, when I was new to the b/f world, we didn't have words like boi or hy, or stone femme. Transgender was a new word. Gender queer didn't exist. Queer was being tossed around as the new cool word to use. Stone Butch Blues and The Femme Mystique had not been written yet. So as our culture evolves, our vocabulary evolves right along with us. It just takes a little while...... Meanwhile, I think a mutual respect of the labels we choose and don't choose to apply to ourselves would be fabulous. Just my humble and long-winded opinion.

[Tommi]

"Back in the day"......my father called me queer when I was 4 and it was not a good thing. He called me this because, I suppose of lableing he needed to identify his kid. The one who Gramma nicknamed Tommi~the tomboy who chased the little really really girlie girls , who probably grew up to be femme's ~probably really high femme's. He meant queer in a realllly nasty way Back in the Day, and I knew that those femme girls would always be the rage and the cherries in my bowl.

[Leigh]

Just came in to visit and say hi

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Library_girl

This thread is really interesting to me, especially since I label myself as High Femme. First, I think a lot of us would say that we get to define our own labels. At least, that's what I like to think. The term "high femme" is an old term, as far as I know. To me, High Femme means really femme, extra femme, super femme, lots o' femme goin' on. And to me, it gives a little hint of old school, which is also part of my identity. In my mind, it DOES NOT mean "high maintenance" at all. I agree that high maintenance is a negative term that conjures up thoughts of someone, anyone of any identity, who requires a great amount of attention and care, be that emotional, financial, sexual, or all of the above. Anyone can be high maintenance, and it has nothing to do with High Femme. It's just a coincidence that the word High appears in both.

Also, in my opinion, calling someone or yourself a High Femme does not push that femme "upwards" to a higher level of femme-ness. There is no Femme Summer Camp (although that would be so fun!) or Femme Graduation, or Femme PhD. (If such a thing is ever invented, I want one!)

Moreover, I feel that High Femme does not suggest that there is a lower form of femme. It's interesting that so many people see things in those dichotomous terms. If this thing is high, there must be a low. If this thing is big, there must be a small. That's just not always the case. Sometimes something just IS.

We do have the power to adapt new descriptors, and we already have. Twenty-something years ago, when I was new to the b/f world, we didn't have words like boi or hy, or stone femme. Transgender was a new word. Gender queer didn't exist. Queer was being tossed around as the new cool word to use. Stone Butch Blues and The Femme Mystique had not been written yet. So as our culture evolves, our vocabulary evolves right along with us. It just takes a little while...... Meanwhile, I think a mutual respect of the labels we choose and don't choose to apply to ourselves would be fabulous. Just my humble and long-winded opinion.

Actually, the term Stone has been around for a very, very long time. It just hasn't been acknowledged along the way. And, as Tommi mentioned, Queer has also been around for a very long time. Some of us have been fortunate enough to bring words back that were used in the past to torment and ridicule and turned them around. We've taken them back and redefined them for ourselves instead of others defining us.

Anyone can label themselves what they wish. It's not for anyone to say that someone is not the label that they proclaim.

HOWEVER

There is a hierarchy, for femmes as well as butches. Sometimes it's joked about....."Oh, she's not butch enough for me".....or, on the flip side..."She wears ten inch heels and full face make up all the time....she's too femmey foo foo for me"....but it's there, nonetheless.

Part of the issue, I think, stems from the fact that femme is equated to "womanly" things like heels and purses and frilly dresses and perfectly coiffed hair. And those femmes who are just 'as femme' as the next girl in heels and a foo foo dress, but they wear jeans and a tee and have grease under their nails, get grief because they don't 'look the part'.

It's heteronormative and it promotes a hierarchy. We are all guilty, at one time or another, of contributing to it.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Leigh

Just came in to visit and say hi

Hi and

[1ladyface]

This isn't about the FTM/femme dynamic specifically (maybe tangentially) but I thought you folks might be interested:

Today I finally got a letter from my ex and close friend who went to jail on the 6th. He's an alcoholic (the reason we broke up and the reason he's in jail) he got his third DUI in November so he's serving 2-3 months. I've been worried sick this past fortnight. (as in literally sick: hives, vertigo, insomnia, nausea) What if he had been placed in mens jail or if he'd gotten sick or if he couldn't get his testosterone or if he didn't show up on his intake date at all?

As it turns out, he's in a separate medical unit because the judge didn't want to put him in mens jail. And he wasn't able to write me because he didn't have access to money for stamps. Ironically I had sent him stamps in the first letter I wrote him 2 weeks ago but they were sent back to me in an envelope stamped "return to sender, unacceptable jail material". Strange world. But now he's been able to access his money and buy stamps so we should be in regular contact.

I'm so relieved. I was shaking and crying with happiness as I read his letter. Thank goodness he's safe.

And in related news, he will be blogging about his experiences (through written letters I type up and submit) on http://www.originalplumbing.com/

He wrote the first post in the letter I got today and I've submitted it but it isn't up on the site just yet. I think it will be cathartic for him and hopefully his writing will be a valuable resource for the community because there's so little out there about the transmale experience in jail or prison.

I hope you and yours are all safe and cozy tonight!

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by 1ladyface

And in related news, he will be blogging about his experiences (through written letters I type up and submit) on http://www.originalplumbing.com/

He wrote the first post in the letter I got today and I've submitted it but it isn't up on the site just yet. I think it will be cathartic for him and hopefully his writing will be a valuable resource for the community because there's so little out there about the transmale experience in jail or prison.

That's great. How will we know which one is his? What name will his blog be under?

[1ladyface]

He wants to keep it anonymous so it'll be under Inmate 12004 (his partial inmate number)