Expectations of FTMs/transsexed men (Dylan's thread)

[Dylan]

ETA by Linus: This thread was created out of this other existing thread (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...ead.php?t=1235) and put as a separate thread to allow it to be discussed on it's own. Enjoy


I also think these 'expectations' put undo pressure on transmen to then BE more 'sensitive' or 'pleasing' or face nasty commentary like, "I would think you'd be more aware of that, being that you used to be a woman". Um, I was never a woman. I may have been female-bodied, but I've never been a woman. Don't expect me to be anything but a man.

Not ALL of us transmen are more sensitive. Don't 'expect' us to be more knowing or more in tune. While aware of social conditioning, some of us picked up the social conditioning of <shock of all shocks> MEN, because we ARE men.

If you think you're getting a 'really masculine woman' or someone who's been 'sensitized' by past experience, you're A) seeing transmen as female, and B) setting yourself up for disappointment if you think this is how all transmen act.

I don't 'get' women anymore than your dad, brother, uncle, or cousin. If you think I'm going to want to 'process' anymore than your dad, uncle, ex husband, brother, etc...you're in for an unpleasant surprise. If you think I'm 'the best of both worlds', we're going to have some problems. If you think I'm going to magically know how to 'read your mind', you're in for another unpleasant surprise. And honestly, if you think any of these things, you're seeing me as 'has been woman'...because these aren't expectations you have of men. EXPECT me to be (your picture of) a man, and I might surprise you, by remembering your birthday. EXPECT me to 'be more sensitive', and you'll be sadly disappointed.


Dylan

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

Hmmm.. what attracts me to transguys? (Yesss.. I'm a very BI transguy, lol)

Well, first of all, most of them *get* it.. The body image thing, the hormones, all of it.. I don't have to explain about any of that.. Notice, i said "most".. I had a hook up recently, a transguy that has been on hormones for years.. He kept telling me that he was straight and only dated females, but that I was soooo hot and how he'd wanted into my pants for months.. We get to doing the ditty and he keeps telling me how straight he is and wants to play with my "titties" and "pussy".. lol.. Yeah, dude was confused.. On a side note, didn't let that lil guy sleep until i was well and done. LOL

My point with that story? Not all transguys are these wonderfully evolved beings that have every quality that anyone could want because they lived both sides of the fence. It just doesn't happen that way. All people are people, no matter if they are Mr transgender avenger or Ms ignorant polly in buttitch, nc..

I got side tracked, didn't I? Dear dear.. ok, so, what makes me hot for transguys *grins* Hair.. Love body and face hair.. The smell.. Love that *man* smell.. Most transguys that I continue to have relations with know how to treat my cock and my man cunt.. did I mention body hair? Ohhhh yeah!

So, that is my very "gay" in put on this subject

-Tony, who was also sneezed on and farted on by that a for mentioned straight transman.. No shit.. it's true! lmao (worst hook up.. EVER)

PS- the sneezing and farting? TOTALLY non consentual awww..

omg that is funny as shit. I would love to be a fly on the wall in your world sometime. I think its very cool how candid, open and honest you are.

[TenderKnight]

Originally Posted by Sachita

omg that is funny as shit. I would love to be a fly on the wall in your world sometime. I think its very cool how candid, open and honest you are.

LOL, thank you.. Yeah, it seems like my life is a sitcom at times.. That's ok, more laugh lines for me

On the topic.. I am enjoying everyone's posts so far.. Love the way folks have been honest and yet not defensive

-Tony

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I personally am not the slightest bit surprised that a queer femme would have a preference for someone associated with her queer community (which wouldn't be the same as the gay male community that a bisexual man would tend to be a part of).

Unless the bisexual male were part of the queer community or part of the bisexual community (which exists)

I don't understand why a bisexual man would *tend* (your word) to be a part of the gay male community.


Dylan

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Unless the bisexual male were part of the queer community or part of the bisexual community (which exists)

I don't understand why a bisexual man would *tend* (your word) to be a part of the gay male community.


Dylan

Shrug. Wasn't my point. Yes there are different types of communities that theoretically a bisexual man could be a part of.

[Dylan]

I would really appreciate someone explaining to me how One 'acts like a biomale'


Seriously, Since It's Been Said So Many Times In This Thread,
Dylan

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I also think these 'expectations' put undo pressure on transmen to then BE more 'sensitive' or 'pleasing' or face nasty commentary like, "I would think you'd be more aware of that, being that you used to be a woman". Um, I was never a woman. I may have been female-bodied, but I've never been a woman. Don't expect me to be anything but a man.

Not ALL of us transmen are more sensitive. Don't 'expect' us to be more knowing or more in tune. While aware of social conditioning, some of us picked up the social conditioning of <shock of all shocks> MEN, because we ARE men.

If you think you're getting a 'really masculine woman' or someone who's been 'sensitized' by past experience, you're A) seeing transmen as female, and B) setting yourself up for disappointment if you think this is how all transmen act.

I don't 'get' women anymore than your dad, brother, uncle, or cousin. If you think I'm going to want to 'process' anymore than your dad, uncle, ex husband, brother, etc...you're in for an unpleasant surprise. If you think I'm 'the best of both worlds', we're going to have some problems. If you think I'm going to magically know how to 'read your mind', you're in for another unpleasant surprise. And honestly, if you think any of these things, you're seeing me as 'has been woman'...because these aren't expectations you have of men. EXPECT me to be (your picture of) a man, and I might surprise you, by remembering your birthday. EXPECT me to 'be more sensitive', and you'll be sadly disappointed.


Dylan

On the flip side a lot of trans men are going to be sadly disappointed if they expect queer femmes to be exactly like straight women.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

On the flip side a lot of trans men are going to be sadly disappointed if they expect queer femmes to be exactly like straight women.

Is there a transman in this thread or on this site who has said they expect queer femmes to be exactly like straight women?


Because I'm Not Seeing Your Point,
Dylan...would think ANYONE with expectations is going to be disappointed when dating REAL people

[BullDog]

If a queer femme is to see trans men exactly as they see non-trans men, then in order to be attracted to a trans man she's supposed to be attracted to all men? How does this work if one is queer?

Why are there so many expectations put on queer femmes to understand men (trans and non-trans) in a queer community and not so much the other way around?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

If a queer femme is to see trans men exactly as they see non-trans men, then in order to be attracted to a trans man she's supposed to be attracted to all men? How does this work if one is queer?

Why are there so many expectations put on queer femmes to understand men (trans and non-trans) in a queer community and not so much the other way around?

Shock of all shocks

Queer does NOT mean lesbian...this is NOT a lesbian community, this is a QUEER community, and QUEER doesn't mean lesbian

I never said anyone is 'supposed to be' attracted to anyone they're not attracted to

I said (basically), don't expect transmen to act a certain way or lump us all together with (gross) stereotypes...there's a big difference between that and what you're saying


You're Mixing My Words And You're Mixing My Words With The Words Of Other Posters,
Dylan

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Shock of all shocks

Queer does NOT mean lesbian...this is NOT a lesbian community, this is a QUEER community, and QUEER doesn't mean lesbian

I never said anyone is 'supposed to be' attracted to anyone they're not attracted to

I said (basically), don't expect transmen to act a certain way or lump us all together with (gross) stereotypes...there's a big difference between that and what you're saying


You're Mixing My Words And You're Mixing My Words With The Words Of Other Posters,
Dylan

Yup, it is a Queer community, but also one embracing the B-F dynamic. And there are a whole lot of lesbian queers here, too. Butches and femmes.

Nope.... lumping any group of people into neat little stereotypes is not a good idea! When I look at all of the Transmen I know (and I mean, really know), they are all quite unique and sure don't fit into any particular box. Nor do the MtF’s I know. The same goes for all of the different butch-femme, queer folks I know and have met through this very online community. I'm a butch woman who is a lesbian which I see as just one part of the entire queer community. Lesbians don't fall into one category, either. Then we have all of the differing kinds of sexuality within the queer community.

Thinking, however, that I have not seen the numbers of generalizations and stereotypes I have in the B-F community since I was a teenager and straight! I'm 59 now. Why is this community so closed minded and at the same time pretends to aspire to diversity?

I'm thinking, (but do not know this, as I am not a Transperson) that any person on the trans spectrum would want someone to be attracted to them due to their entire persona just like attraction works for all people. I mean the past, present and future promise in a person's experience and growth. Sure, physical appeal (which really is in the eye of the beholder) has to be present, but so do common values, politics, goals.... And the element of magic, yanno, the chemistry that just happens to us all.

I would hope to hell that someone would not do to a Transperson the same that some straight people do in experimenting with queer folks without really caring for them! And, we have all seen star-fucking in action throughout life!

Hummm... are we talking just attraction here, or attraction as it relates to relationship building? Asking because, I know that how I acted on just pure physical attraction in my teens and 20's is a hell of a lot different than when I was older.. and very different now.

I guess I am seeing a difference between the basic fuck-factor and attraction and the fuck-factor plus phenomena concerning attraction. Seems like both would apply to all of us, No?

I still at times find non-Transmen attractive and yes, that means that my ovaries spin just as they do when I am very attracted (for me that means a totality of factors about an individual including the physical) to a woman or a femme (yes, I am attracted to non-femmes, sometimes). Also, I have had attractions to MtF’s and Transmen that are gay men (Sean Dorsey and other FtM’s like him are fine!). Go figure! Humm, to date, I have not been attracted to a Transman that is straight. Or one that identifies as queer as in within the B-F community.

Shit, this is complicated! And… diverse! I hope I didn’t mix anything up with my distinctions! And Heaven forbid, my butch-card could be discredited by admitting different attractions! Again, I speak of how closed ( and really quite conformist) I often view this community to be (which makes me sad).

LOL... I'm cussing, again! I hardly ever swore until I joined the B-F community.... see what ya'll are doing to me! Nah, its all good... really it ALL is good!

[TenderKnight]

Originally Posted by BullDog

If a queer femme is to see trans men exactly as they see non-trans men, then in order to be attracted to a trans man she's supposed to be attracted to all men? How does this work if one is queer?

Mmmm.. You don't need to be attracted to ALL men.. But, if a queer femme is attracted to me, I would want them to be attracted to me as the man I am and always have been, rather then as someone that was a woman and now looks like a man.. you know?

Why are there so many expectations put on queer femmes to understand men (trans and non-trans) in a queer community and not so much the other way around?

mmmm.. I get your frustration here, and I agree that it isn't fair for the full weight of understanding be put on a femme's shoulders.. I posted in another thread about how I am "relearning" a lot of what I learned about femmes.. Just as a bio guy would have to "relearn" a lot of the stereotypes put out there about what a woman is, isn't and supposed to be..

Just my input.

-Tony

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I also think these 'expectations' put undo pressure on transmen to then BE more 'sensitive' or 'pleasing' or face nasty commentary like, "I would think you'd be more aware of that, being that you used to be a woman". Um, I was never a woman. I may have been female-bodied, but I've never been a woman. Don't expect me to be anything but a man.

Not ALL of us transmen are more sensitive. Don't 'expect' us to be more knowing or more in tune. While aware of social conditioning, some of us picked up the social conditioning of <shock of all shocks> MEN, because we ARE men.

If you think you're getting a 'really masculine woman' or someone who's been 'sensitized' by past experience, you're A) seeing transmen as female, and B) setting yourself up for disappointment if you think this is how all transmen act.

I don't 'get' women anymore than your dad, brother, uncle, or cousin. If you think I'm going to want to 'process' anymore than your dad, uncle, ex husband, brother, etc...you're in for an unpleasant surprise. If you think I'm 'the best of both worlds', we're going to have some problems. If you think I'm going to magically know how to 'read your mind', you're in for another unpleasant surprise. And honestly, if you think any of these things, you're seeing me as 'has been woman'...because these aren't expectations you have of men. EXPECT me to be (your picture of) a man, and I might surprise you, by remembering your birthday. EXPECT me to 'be more sensitive', and you'll be sadly disappointed.


Dylan

I am involved with someone who is TG. He is a man. So much so that how his body looks is irrelevant. I have been with cis men. I have been with women. He ain't a woman. He doesn't think like one. He doesn't act like one. He isn't one. He doesn't want to be one. He isn't more sensitive and there isn't some beautiful dual energy with him. If there was I wouldn't be there. Period. Was he socially conditioned as a woman? Yes. Does that make him not from Mars? No.

I think we all go through periods of time when we try out different ID's and try new things to see what works for us. Many TGs and FTMs that I know (and I make it sound like I know 1000s, in reality it's more like 10.) have ID'd differently at different times in their life just like the rest of us. At no time does that change the core of who we are or who they are. For example, I'm an asshole. This is true whether I call myself a sweet girly girl or not - and I'm still an asshole regardless of who I wake up next to.

How I chose to ID has no bearing on his ID. I don't have to explain that or justify it to anyone. We get it. We are what matters at the end of the day.

And if he said to me tomorrow, we are outta this community (in general not BFP specifically) - I would go in a heartbeat - because I have seen just how unwelcoming and just how separatist this community can be when it comes to TG's, male IDs and FTM's. Everyone ELSE can be who they are except for them. Somehow they need to embrace being a woman, even though they don't FEEL that way, otherwise - they lose their queer card.

Trying to be back on topic: I know for me personally I was attracted to his dominance, stubborness and inability to see reason. I <3 meanies.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by adorable

Somehow they need to embrace being a woman, even though they don't FEEL that way, otherwise - they lose their queer card.

I <3 meanies.

I loved your whole post, but this part really got me, because I've known this for a long time, and I've talked about it to other guys who no longer participate on either site, but you're the first person I've seen bring it up in a post. This was especially true on the other site, but I see it happening here too.

And I wonder if this was part of Linus' thought process when he started the "Some Things Don't Need To Start With 'Trans'" thread (that's not the actual title, but I can't remember the actual title).

Guys can't just be 'guys' in this community. They have to be 'trans'guys, or 'FTMs', or (and I hate hate hate this one) 'Trans' (used as a noun as in: The Trans, or A Trans), or some other signifier to denote some sort of 'woman' aspect.

Or there's talk of 'the journey' <gag>

Or there's some comparison to 'bio' men. Or 'natal' men.

And then, we always have to 'honor our past/journey/path' what the hell ever (read: don't ever forget you're a woman)

And now, even holding the door for someone is a 'trans' guy 'thing to do'.

Or caring about One's partner is now a 'dual spirity' thing heralding back to 'womanhood'.


Thank You For Your Whole Post,
Dylan

[adorable]

I feel bad because I think poor Billy really just wanted a fun thread that would bring out those who were attracted to FTMs. LOL!

Dylan - I think it would make a great thread on it's own and seriously it's a conversation that should be had. It's important.

[TenderKnight]

Originally Posted by adorable

I feel bad because I think poor Billy really just wanted a fun thread that would bring out those who were attracted to FTMs. LOL!

Dylan - I think it would make a great thread on it's own and seriously it's a conversation that should be had. It's important.

I agree.. I think it is a good conversation and maybe a debate to be had here, but maybe not in this thread? Seems to be getting a bit *derailed*..

Dylan, I feel what you are saying, totally

[Kenna]

Originally Posted by adorable

I feel bad because I think poor Billy really just wanted a fun thread that would bring out those who were attracted to FTMs. LOL!

Dylan - I think it would make a great thread on it's own and seriously it's a conversation that should be had. It's important.

Thank you. I appreciate someone saying something...

This isn't directed at any one person or specific posts: but the tone of recent posts have prevented me from responding as I originally wanted to. An angry, bitter or condescending tone will prevent me from participating. Sorry to put this out there... maybe if I felt I wouldn't be judged so harshly, I'd be willing to participate? But I wanted to thank all that have responded. It's been a good read and interesting.

And a special thanks to Billy,

TLC to all,
Sweet

[Linus]

And if it will help, I have no issue with splitting the posts in question into a new thread and then updating the first to point back to here as a reference if that helps.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Sweet

Thank you. I appreciate someone saying something...

This isn't directed at any one person or specific posts: but the tone of recent posts have prevented me from responding as I originally wanted to. An angry, bitter or condescending tone will prevent me from participating. Sorry to put this out there... maybe if I felt I wouldn't be judged so harshly, I'd be willing to participate? But I wanted to thank all that have responded. It's been a good read and interesting.

And a special thanks to Billy,

TLC to all,
Sweet

I think that these types of threads do kind of set us up because in REALITY what we want has nothing to do with stereotypes and everything to do with what WE WANT. But if you say so - it's easy for people to jump on you and say well - that isn't what ALL x, y & z do so - you are kinda screwed by saying ANYTHING lest you be seen as stereotyping. But it's not stereotyping if that's what you want.

In a community like this where so many people have been put into boxes by society I think it's natural to want to scream sometimes that we are not all so neatly fit into boxes. It would be nice if we could all acknowledge that and move on....and be able to laugh at ourselves the same way that the rest of world does at times. We may not be there yet. The wounds keep being opened by the others, in the real world where we all have to live and fight. From the way that many of these threads go it doesn't seem so....and in some cases in the real world where you can see the way things are said, with the facial expressions that go along with it - not as much as lost in translation. I suspect that makes it harder too.

It is hard to argue with ME statements. It is hard to argue with what I would love to find in an FTM is....Or the things I would love in a Femme. If someone reacts to a ME statement that I've made - I will either ignore them or point to the ME in the sentence.

Imagine if I were to write what I wanted - HA! O-M-G. Exactly ONE person would understand it. I know that for a fact because most people don't even understand pieces of it. But it's my thing. MY thing. Judging other people's kinks, or preferences, or a certain look, or a way of life...is tough to do when it's not your thing. So is explaining why we want what we want. It's like trying to explain why we love apple pie to someone that hates it. We love it because it tastes good. They hate it because it tastes bad. Who is right? Well of course, we are because who the hell doesn't love apple pie? Weirdo's.

I used to get far more upset.

That is...until I realized everyone is full of shit and can honestly only speak for themselves. I kind of thought people knew more then I did somehow because there were all these new words and different types of people and I felt like I had missed these HUGE things going on in the world. he he he. Yeah, no one has EVERYTHING figured out. If we really did, we'd be far to busy to be here talking about it.

I think maybe staying away from generalizations helps keep people from getting so defensive. Not all. But some at least. THEN when the defensiveness starts - not reacting to it. The people who get it will get it and those who don't won't. I will sleep fine either way.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I personally am not the slightest bit surprised that a queer femme would have a preference for someone associated with her queer community (which wouldn't be the same as the gay male community that a bisexual man would tend to be a part of).

But you haven't told us why you're attracted to Dylan.....