Possible Triggering: Violence against butches.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Heart

WTF?

Dammit Ender I did NOT say every butch, I said many butches. Nor did I speak for anyone, I spoke theoretically about butches who experience assault because the attacker sees them as non-conforming women, which frankly rapists consider the exact same thing as a freak. Do you think Brandon Tina's rapists saw him as a man for one second? This is exactly the nature of homophobic, sexist rapes. The identity of the victim is erased. In fact MEN are raped in order to feminize them, to strip them of manhood. So, don't lecture me about identity in the face of rape Ender. And for you to equate what I said with the perpetrator is beyond comprehension, incredibly offensive, and hurtful. I have zero desire to interact with you again.

Did you even look at the portion of your post that I bolded? I have no problem with anyone saying "many butches" experience blah blah blah, but when you follow that up with claiming that they experience it "as women" and then followed by a comment on how it doesn't matter that they don't identify as women, I have a problem with it. To couple that experience of rape or physical assault or any kind of assault with a claim that it is "as women" and that it is an experience "as women" despite that they don't identify as women, then yeah I'm gonna see that as erasing, and yeah I'm gonna call it out.

You also didn't address the second part of my post that went into explaining my stance even further. While Brandon Teena may not have been seen as a man while he was being raped, neither do I think he was seen as wholely female. I think the relationship between aggressors and transgender or even intersexed bodies and how they experience the assault is different. I think it's a simplification of the situation and how various gender identities experience assault. Brandon was not experiencing assault "as a woman" from the victim's perspective, he was experiencing it as a transguy with gender dysphoria. Identifying as trans or as a male identity in addition to being body dysphoric and what one experienced with those challenges during a sexual assault is a different experience than being an XX woman. It's not "worse," it's entirely equal in its atrocity, but it's different and that should be recognised. Just the way many physically disabled women who experience rape have different challenges and feelings regarding their experience than able-bodied women and so on.

That is my point. And yes I do think using that phrase "as women" in conjunction with saying "even if they don't id that way" is harmful. Going back to Boys Don't Cry, again just look at the portrayal of Brandon added by the director. After he is raped he is then portrayed as a lesbian and his dysphoria seems to magically evaporate. Even Tisdel said that never happened, yet the director put that in there anyway as a reflection of her own perspective. It's not a totally uncommon view and I have a right to find it disturbing.

To clarify again since I may or may not have made it clear enough in my initial post: my objection is to the experience "as women" in conjunction with "even if they don't id that way." My objection is also partially that that phrase was used to address the derailment by talking about the rape of XY men. To me this should be a thread about butch experience, that is (as far as its language) not dismissive. To me the offense is not just that someone brought up the rape of XY men in a thread about "women's experiences with violence"...it's moreso that it's brought up in a thread about butches who were born XX whether they identify or are identified by others are women or not. The bottom line should be butch experience, past and present.