01-17-2013, 08:05 PM | #41 |
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I would just like to reiterate that while masculinity has always been a characteristic of butches, transmen, generqueer and others, it has not necessarily been the defining characteristic.
Making it the defining quality makes me wanna urp. I LIKE masculinity. I think it is HOT. Do not get me wrong. But if it is the defining quality of butches, for example, that makes everything else that butches are secondary or individual qualities, not as noteworthy somehow. It encourages a hyper awareness and valorization of masculinity. That's not where I'd go if it were my ID, my umbrella term. Isn't that already a kind of bone of contention among some members of the groups covered by the term? So to make it part of the umbrella term pretty much decides the issue -- in favor of the folks who foreground masculine gender presentation as part of their ID. That to me is an issue that might also be generational. African American butches of MY generation often did their nails and wore earrings -- the dangly kind. I am serious. Lots of Black butches in my day had some interesting combinations of masculine and feminine going on in their gender presentation. Still do. ANd seriously, as an older person, some of the least pleasing things I have witnessed among younger folks has been when they have worked a lot too hard on being masculine rather than being who they are in all their glory. |
01-17-2013, 08:14 PM | #42 | |||
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to be honest, i am not going to lose any sleep over the fear of white butches being "limited" if the term gains currency. i don't think poc queer culture or our language is in any way a threat to the mainstream white queer culture. edited to add - from the pdf - Quote:
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01-17-2013, 08:16 PM | #43 | |
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I think a LOT of African American butches of my generation wouldn't resonate at all. Re your last sentence I am not defending white queer culture. Wow. That's a leap. |
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01-17-2013, 08:21 PM | #44 | |
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01-17-2013, 08:21 PM | #45 |
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i can't speak to that, since the only butch folks i've seen argue against the term masculine of center have been white. when i see a large number of folks of color start speaking out against the term masculine of center and say that they feel marginalized by younger folks of color, then i will be concerned by that. nevertheless that's a discussion that is internal to the poc community, and white folks leveraging the experiences of older butches of color to support their arguments is in my opinion not appropriate.
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01-17-2013, 08:25 PM | #46 | |
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Even the use of the term "boy" in that quote excludes quite a few people. "Leveraging" -- I am not using anyone's experience. I haven't cited a single person. I have speculated. Good god. I was making a point about gender. I get to do that. That the author of that piece quoted in the race thread and perhaps you too think that because this term comes from the organizing of progressive PoC, it gets to go unexamined -- wishful thinking. |
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01-17-2013, 08:29 PM | #47 |
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Butch is not a descriptor of color, Transmen is not a descriptor of color, Boi is not, Boy is not. So when did it become ok to include people into a descriptor that does not pertain to them? Are they masculine, yes, but so is female. See the problem? The words Masculine of Center has no racial connotation.
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01-17-2013, 08:30 PM | #48 | |
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from my experiences with bbp, i have the feeling that if any older butches of color brought these concerns to them, or had any advice for how to improve their work with young people of color, they would be very receptive to listening. |
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01-17-2013, 08:31 PM | #49 | |
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01-17-2013, 08:36 PM | #50 |
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you get to make points about gender. i get to make points about race. i have not let anything go unexamined, but thanks for accusing me of not being able to think critically about issues related to an issue in my own community. i have never in any discussion i've participated in on bfp tried to get out of thinking critically about anything. i might be wrong and fuck up but i do not let anything go unexamined. i'm really insulted that you are accusing me of that.
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01-17-2013, 08:37 PM | #51 | |
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01-17-2013, 08:38 PM | #52 | |
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Not an argument that resonates for me when the gender politics are so fucked up. SO FUCKED UP. |
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01-17-2013, 08:40 PM | #53 | |
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"We are woman-identified Butches. We are trans-masculine Studs. We are faggot-identified Aggressives. We are noun Butches, adjective Studs and pronoun-shunning Aggressives. We are she, he, hy, ze, zie and hir. We are you, and we are me. The point is, we don’t decide who is Butch, Stud or Aggressive. You get to decide for yourself." |
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01-17-2013, 08:41 PM | #54 | |
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01-17-2013, 08:41 PM | #55 | |
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01-17-2013, 08:42 PM | #56 | |
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i'd be interested to actually see refutations of the way brown boi project understands and discusses masculinity/"masculine of center" rather than general statements that the gender politics of "masculine of center" and "feminine of center" are fucked up. also generalization that the gender politics are "so fucked up" - so are all of us who use these terms just wrong about gender? i mean? that is kind of overreaching. |
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01-17-2013, 08:43 PM | #57 | |
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01-17-2013, 08:44 PM | #58 | |
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martina, i have NOT SAID ONCE that people should not examine the term or take it apart. i HAVE tried to introduce context for how the term came about and how and why it is used. my point is trying to have an abstract discussion about a term that is not rooted in its history and context is hella fucked up. pretty much all the posts in this thread are against the term being used. few have bothered to acknowledge where the term came from, why it came about in the first place, or bothered to try to understand why other people might find it useful. ZERO context whatsoever. oh, and i did read what you said. you out and out said that i am arguing against examining something critically JUST because it came out of progressive poc community. that is DISGUSTING and minimizing and if anyone here thinks that about me then clearly y'all don't know me all that well. |
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01-17-2013, 08:44 PM | #59 | |
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I met a new "friend" whom is a person of colour and we talked a bit about why she used the term "stud" to describe how she ID'd and why I use the term butch and I am white. She told me that the term "butch" to her felt like it was derogatory term and that is why she called herself a stud instead. That her upbringing and how she was part of a community that is of colour, the term became coined. Well that is just that, her pov and perspective. Mine, however is different. I am "butch" not a stud, it's the word "DYKE" that I feel is a derogatory term to me personally because that is how it has been used against me by straights. I can see how the term butch can be used by straights to mean you want to be a man in the relationship to folks that don't get our dynamic. I can see how people of colour feel erased, just like any other ID in our community can and often does feel at times erased themselves. I have felt erased because I am not only butch but I am a lesbian on top of that term. And on top of those terms I am a female /woman.(eta And I am female but masculine as well). Basically what I am seeing in the articles I perused through is they feel possibly erased and need to feel included and for them, the terms that are already out there, don't describe them as a whole, or us as a whole community and that's what they wish to do. I personally wouldn't use the term myself, and I don't want anyone else to use it for me to describe me either. But, I kinda can get something from this. I am not sure what Center means maybe it's just a jumping off point to start a new revolution from the old to the new. I don't know. But I wish to say I have no problems or issues with how anyone wants to call themselves, just don't push it off on me too and erase who I am. Period. Maybe we should not just discuss this use of term, but email the woman who coined it and ask her for her thoughts on what the center is exactly? and why she chose Masculine of Center and not Feminine of Center?? or Some other term in our spectrum of ID's. PS. Where's Bulldog on this issue ??? I can't wait to read her point of view on this.
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01-17-2013, 08:54 PM | #60 |
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I just had a light bulb moment...
So, in my rep to aishah I stated that I had NO idea that MoC was coined by a butch POC. And yet my reluctance to accept the term MoC was centrifugal to CENTER and fbecause of bias I've been subjected to or seen, Center has WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE connotations...
In mainstream, center is white. Center is patriarchal. Center is biased, Center is privilege...and that is why I have a hard time with MoCenter...I dont want to perpetuate the privilege...but then in my discussion last night I was politely and diplomatically informed that MASCULINE HAS PRIVILEGE...that my presentation as masculine perpetuates privilege in certain arenas... I am sorry that its getting heated and defensive/aggressive in our discussions, but I think its worthy, necessary and highly educational to have them...at least it is for me... |
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