Masculine of Center -- the term

[Martina]

I remembered when I learned that a lot of gay men in Detroit -- and elsewhere I am sure -- ID'd as homosexual, but not gay. This was in the 90's. Even after the early days of HIV and the organizing around it -- and the contact that created between privileged white gay men and everyone else -- a lot of African American gay men had no sense that they belonged in the gay community. And I mean out, exclusively homosexual men. My best friend back home is an African American gay man. He ID's as gay. He has white gay friends, but over time his community became more African American -- and gay or homosexual. But the more contact I had with his world -- I'd always had a fair amt of contact with white gay men -- the more I realized how much fucking WORK it is for Black men to deal with gay white men and their world. It's tiring. And it's just not home for many of them. So I had a lot of respect for the men who didn't ID as gay. One had a Ph.D. and was a professional queer -- ran an agency. So he had had extensive contact with white institutions. But he still did not ID as gay. Again, totally respect that. White gay male culture just wasn't a fit. Wasn't home. Had never been welcoming to many African American men.

So I get that. I get not feeling a strong pull toward identifiers that maybe never worked for you. I have no problem with anyone ID'ing or self-describing any way they want.

And truly I am not interested in BV politics.

But MoC is put forward as an umbrella term to INCLUDE butch women and other folks. If they don't fit under the umbrella, are they no longer included?

ANd if it's OK with you to not include specific groups, yer making a statement, moving your politics and your community in a particular direction -- deliberately.

But all that aside, my objections to the term do not come from an attachment to other terms. For one thing, I am not butch. I think that foregrounding gender presentation, and calling it masculine, is highly questionable, even without the idea of a spectrum or a center.

It's not just that it excludes people. It makes masculinity the defining characteristic of members of the group. Well, guess what, sometimes I am masculine. I do not ID as MoC or butch or any of the things in those lists. And sometimes my masculinity is not just how I dress, but something deeply internal. Why is masculinity the province of someone else? And have those same people abjured femininity? If so, what kind of sexist consequences are we gonna see from that??

And come on, seriously, isn't creating a gender label called masculine anything and using the word "center" putting oneself on the male side of the conventional binary without problematizing it? Isn't it then reinforcing the binary? To pretend otherwise is naive, in my opinion. Some people won't find that a problem. That's cool. But others will. And if they do not feel comfortable being described as MoC, does that limit their presence in the community if the term gains currency?

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

But MoC is put forward as an umbrella term to INCLUDE butch women and other folks. If they don't fit under the umbrella, are they no longer included?

well, the term was coined by a butch woman. so...? i guess it is inclusive of butch women who identify with it and some butch women do not identify with it? because many butch women of color do id as masculine of center, i don't think the term is meant to be exclusive of butch women.

It's not just that it excludes people. It makes masculinity the defining characteristic of members of the group. Well, guess what, sometimes I am masculine. I do not ID as MoC or butch or any of the things in those lists. And sometimes my masculinity is not just how I dress, but something deeply internal. Why is masculinity the province of someone else? And have those same people abjured femininity? If so, what kind of sexist consequences are we gonna see from that??

And come on, seriously, isn't creating a gender label called masculine anything and using the word "center" putting oneself on the male side of the conventional binary without problematizing it? Isn't it then reinforcing the binary? To pretend otherwise is naive, in my opinion. Some people won't find that a problem. That's cool. But others will. And if they do not feel comfortable being described as MoC, does that limit their presence in the community if the term gains currency?

the pdf i linked to from brown boi talks a bit about why they choose specifically to focus on masculinity as a characteristic (because masculine id'ed folks of color face specific challenges that they feel need to be addressed and they work to address that). i am guessing that might give more context to why b. cole chooses to specifically use the word masculine.

to be honest, i am not going to lose any sleep over the fear of white butches being "limited" if the term gains currency. i don't think poc queer culture or our language is in any way a threat to the mainstream white queer culture.

edited to add - from the pdf -

We believe that the policing of masculinity is literally killing us. It drives boys of color to violence
as a means of securing power and manhood. Its
historical root though goes much deeper. The
control of people of color for many centuries has
been possible through the regulation of gender—especially the control of women’s bodies.
From massacres of Native American women to
prevent future generations,
to sterilization of one-third of all Puerto Rican women of child
rearing age, limiting the movement of Asian
immigrant women to join their families,
and the countless forms of violence Black women
endured during slavery—controlling women has
been a profoundly effective tool in controlling all
of us. These efforts while historical in nature are
directly tied to current repeated assaults on bodies of women of color around their reproductive
health and wellbeing. Part of our organizational
purpose as is to leverage our masculinity to make
a positive contribution to interrupt this cycle.

By controlling femininity in negative ways, society has
been able to consolidate power and wealth in the hands
of those with privilege around gender and race. It also
unearths the truth about how we perceive women with in
this society, the deepest embodiment of femininity. Thus
the greatest threat to masculinity is to strip it of power,
to feminize it. This is the root of homophobia.
19
Reversing
this tide is essential if our communities are going to
thrive. We understand deeply how our masculine privilege can become a wedge in our communities—pitting
racial justice fights against gender justice. Yet we have
been able to bridge these efforts in a way that strengthens boys of color, giving them access to masculinity
without shame or negativity. Our core ethos is to let
your first act of resistance be one of self-love; and your
second accountability for your privilege. We have built a
model that allows for both.

We work for Gender Justice by re-envisioning the power imbalance between traditional
notions of masculinity and femininity. We hold institutional systems, other masculine people,
and ourselves accountable for masculine privilege. Our work draws on a gender inclusive
framework that shapes non-oppressive masculinity rooted in honor, community, and collaboration with feminine identified people, especially women and girls.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

to be honest, i am not going to lose any sleep over the fear of white butches being "limited" if the term gains currency. i don't think poc queer culture or our language is in any way a threat to the mainstream white queer culture.

I wasn't thinking of white butches. I didn't say white. You did.

I think a LOT of African American butches of my generation wouldn't resonate at all.

Re your last sentence I am not defending white queer culture. Wow. That's a leap.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

I wasn't thinking of white butches. I didn't say white. You did.

I think a LOT of African American butches of my generation wouldn't resonate at all.

Re your last sentence I am not defending white queer culture. Wow. That's a leap.

i can't speak to that, since the only butch folks i've seen argue against the term masculine of center have been white. when i see a large number of folks of color start speaking out against the term masculine of center and say that they feel marginalized by younger folks of color, then i will be concerned by that. nevertheless that's a discussion that is internal to the poc community, and white folks leveraging the experiences of older butches of color to support their arguments is in my opinion not appropriate.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

i can't speak to that, since the only butch folks i've seen argue against the term masculine of center have been white. when i see a large number of folks of color start speaking out against the term masculine of center and say that they feel marginalized by younger folks of color, then i will be concerned by that. nevertheless that's a discussion that is internal to the poc community, and white folks leveraging the experiences of older butches of color to support their arguments is in my opinion not appropriate.

How likely do you think these women are to even be at a venue where you'd have the discussion? And how likely will they be if they are by definition excluded?

Even the use of the term "boy" in that quote excludes quite a few people.

"Leveraging" -- I am not using anyone's experience. I haven't cited a single person. I have speculated.
Good god.

I was making a point about gender. I get to do that. That the author of that piece quoted in the race thread and perhaps you too think that because this term comes from the organizing of progressive PoC, it gets to go unexamined -- wishful thinking.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

How likely do you think these women are to even be at a venue where you'd have the discussion? And how likely will they be if they are by definition excluded?

Even the use of the term "boy" in that quote excludes quite a few people.

"Leveraging" -- I am not using anyone's experience. I haven't cited a single person. I have speculated. Good god.

well, considering that i'm pretty involved in various intergenerational lesbian and queer spaces for poc and indigenous folks, i have the feeling i wouldn't be completely oblivious. it's always a possibility, though.

from my experiences with bbp, i have the feeling that if any older butches of color brought these concerns to them, or had any advice for how to improve their work with young people of color, they would be very receptive to listening.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

well, considering that i'm pretty involved in various intergenerational lesbian and queer spaces for poc and indigenous folks, i have the feeling i wouldn't be completely oblivious. it's always a possibility, though.

from my experiences with bbp, i have the feeling that if any older butches of color brought these concerns to them, or had any advice for how to improve their work with young people of color, they would be very receptive to listening.

I have no idea what BBP is. This could be as you say. I can't say that it's not true. But I do think that the objections to the term are re the gender politics. The writer of the article in the race thread did not imply otherwise. He simply suggested backing down off one's privileged horse and allowing others to get the opportunity to name for once.

Not an argument that resonates for me when the gender politics are so fucked up. SO FUCKED UP.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

I was making a point about gender. I get to do that. That the author of that piece quoted in the race thread and perhaps you too think that because this term comes from the organizing of progressive PoC, it gets to go unexamined -- wishful thinking.

you get to make points about gender. i get to make points about race. i have not let anything go unexamined, but thanks for accusing me of not being able to think critically about issues related to an issue in my own community. i have never in any discussion i've participated in on bfp tried to get out of thinking critically about anything. i might be wrong and fuck up but i do not let anything go unexamined. i'm really insulted that you are accusing me of that.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

you get to make points about gender. i get to make points about race. i have not let anything go unexamined, but thanks for accusing me of not being able to think critically about issues related to an issue in my own community. i have never in any discussion i've participated in on bfp tried to get out of thinking critically about anything. i might be wrong and fuck up but i do not let anything go unexamined. i'm really insulted that you are accusing me of that.

Read what I said. I said -- or meant to say -- that anyone who expects others -- the world -- to not examine the term, take it apart, look at it, see if it works -- just because it came out of a progressive movement of PoC is engaging in some wishful thinking.

[Boots13]

So, in my rep to aishah I stated that I had NO idea that MoC was coined by a butch POC. And yet my reluctance to accept the term MoC was centrifugal to CENTER and fbecause of bias I've been subjected to or seen, Center has WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE connotations...

In mainstream, center is white. Center is patriarchal. Center is biased, Center is privilege...and that is why I have a hard time with MoCenter...I dont want to perpetuate the privilege...but then in my discussion last night I was politely and diplomatically informed that MASCULINE HAS PRIVILEGE...that my presentation as masculine perpetuates privilege in certain arenas...

I am sorry that its getting heated and defensive/aggressive in our discussions, but I think its worthy, necessary and highly educational to have them...at least it is for me...

[nowandthen]

I posted in the red zone a post of a friend, I did so in my on going effort to talk about whiteness,not BV or the history of the term MoC. The post for me help me see more ways I need to self-reflect. Then this thread pop up, so I want to be in it since it is my lived and life's work.

I find it interesting that the term masculinity or masculine are not exposed for also being part of the language of the western medical system. I am asked all the time what pronoun I use, I now answer the question this way, "why don;t you pick one because it is not about how I see me it is how you see me" meaning I am guilty as well of categorization, butch's do this, men do that, etc. we live in a world that needs difference to place a value on something, race,gender and sex are no different. I am learning to unlearn everything I thought was truth. It is hard and ideas and beliefs die hard as well in me. That said, I support and respect those who like gender roles as they define them no one needs my approval.

I think I used the term masculinity for lack of language to name myself. The markers that have come to be known as masculine are just that markers to police that others, social and political enforce, starting with our birth certificate. Masculinity is a made up category made by a structural system to exclude more than include. Patriarchy and its need for misogyny , specifically white patriarchy has made its self center. So, I like many used the language available to me to name myself. The history we are taught comes from and through White supremacy and that is always where I find the conversation struggles the most about gender representation. The is no universal narrative, no history that is the same in relation to race,gender,sex, and nation. I find the limitations of language is also born from this same genealogy.

I come to this like most of us from a very personnel place, often my first response to someones visibility is my fear of invisibility. The Medical Industrial complex has reduce the human experience to two kinds, Female and male. That is the truth, I did not make it up but I work to destroy it. I had many years of reparative therapy as a child, I had many lesbians shame me for not being what the named to be a dyke, I have white privilege, First Nation status, I am mostly able-bodied with a few ouch here and there. What I do not have is a mental illness and all the gender language we use stems from that, what is normal and deviant, what can be measured can be controlled and changed.

Race is always in the conversation because it is, the material conditions of difference have real human cost. Gender is also always a factor, if you ask me how I see myself, again I always say white why, because it matters race is not about the [I]other it is about self first. Anyway, I must walk the dog chow for now

[Corkey]

Butch is not a descriptor of color, Transmen is not a descriptor of color, Boi is not, Boy is not. So when did it become ok to include people into a descriptor that does not pertain to them? Are they masculine, yes, but so is female. See the problem? The words Masculine of Center has no racial connotation.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Butch is not a descriptor of color, Transmen is not a descriptor of color, Boi is not, Boy is not. So when did it become ok to include people into a descriptor that does not pertain to them? Are they masculine, yes, but so is female. See the problem? The words Masculine of Center has no racial connotation.

the term "masculine of center" was coined by a black butch who runs an organization for masculine folks of color, and it is only widely used in poc communities. personally, i don't find it a shock that the backlash against it has mainly come from white people. its adoption in butch voices and other spaces, from my understanding, has partly been an attempt to widen its use as an umbrella term and partly an attempt (although one people think is bad?) to be more inclusive.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by aishah

the term "masculine of center" was coined by a black butch who runs an organization for masculine folks of color, and it is only widely used in poc communities. its adoption in butch voices and other spaces, from my understanding, has partly been an attempt to widen its use as an umbrella term and partly an attempt (although one people think is bad?) to be more inclusive.

That does not make it inclusive if the people they are trying to include do not accept the term for themselves. I know that a PoC coined the term, it doesn't make it so for the ones who it pro ports to include if they do not feel it pertains to them. Make since?

[JustBeingMe]

Originally Posted by aishah

the term "masculine of center" was coined by a black butch who runs an organization for masculine folks of color, and it is only widely used in poc communities. its adoption in butch voices and other spaces, from my understanding, has partly been an attempt to widen its use as an umbrella term and partly an attempt (although one people think is bad?) to be more inclusive.

Lets see if this makes any sense to anyone.
I met a new "friend" whom is a person of colour and we talked a bit about why she used the term "stud" to describe how she ID'd and why I use the term butch and I am white. She told me that the term "butch" to her felt like it was derogatory term and that is why she called herself a stud instead. That her upbringing and how she was part of a community that is of colour, the term became coined. Well that is just that, her pov and perspective. Mine, however is different. I am "butch" not a stud, it's the word "DYKE" that I feel is a derogatory term to me personally because that is how it has been used against me by straights. I can see how the term butch can be used by straights to mean you want to be a man in the relationship to folks that don't get our dynamic.
I can see how people of colour feel erased, just like any other ID in our community can and often does feel at times erased themselves. I have felt erased because I am not only butch but I am a lesbian on top of that term. And on top of those terms I am a female /woman.(eta And I am female but masculine as well).
Basically what I am seeing in the articles I perused through is they feel possibly erased and need to feel included and for them, the terms that are already out there, don't describe them as a whole, or us as a whole community and that's what they wish to do.
I personally wouldn't use the term myself, and I don't want anyone else to use it for me to describe me either.
But, I kinda can get something from this. I am not sure what Center means maybe it's just a jumping off point to start a new revolution from the old to the new. I don't know.
But I wish to say I have no problems or issues with how anyone wants to call themselves, just don't push it off on me too and erase who I am. Period.
Maybe we should not just discuss this use of term, but email the woman who coined it and ask her for her thoughts on what the center is exactly? and why she chose Masculine of Center and not Feminine of Center?? or Some other term in our spectrum of ID's.

PS. Where's Bulldog on this issue ??? I can't wait to read her point of view on this.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by aishah

i don't find it a shock that the backlash against it has mainly come from white people. its adoption in butch voices and other spaces, from my understanding, (although one people think is bad?) to be more inclusive.

Quite frankly ,
this has nothing to do with color and I'm baffled by you going there over
and over again , with your posts.
Maybe the backlash is coming from old butches of all colors instead?
I would also not go to a boi / boy gathering either unless I was looking for one.

it does not feel inclusive
to this old white butch
nope

back in my day , we didnt have groups
and we managed to get along , just fine!
eh, something to ponder

edits to add
zero problems with being called stud

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by aishah

well, the term was coined by a butch woman. so...? i guess it is inclusive of butch women who identify with it and some butch women do not identify with it? because many butch women of color do id as masculine of center, i don't think the term is meant to be exclusive of butch women.



the pdf i linked to from brown boi talks a bit about why they choose specifically to focus on masculinity as a characteristic (because masculine id'ed folks of color face specific challenges that they feel need to be addressed and they work to address that). i am guessing that might give more context to why b. cole chooses to specifically use the word masculine.

to be honest, i am not going to lose any sleep over the fear of white butches being "limited" if the term gains currency. i don't think poc queer culture or our language is in any way a threat to the mainstream white queer culture.

I don't think anyone is threatened, except by a term that is trying to include identities that some do not want to be used to describe who they are. Like I said I have no problem with anyone claiming MoC for themselves, it's the inclusion of people who do not wish to be included that is the issue. I wish I could talk to b. Cole to understand this better.