Masculine of Center -- the term

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

I was making a point about gender. I get to do that. That the author of that piece quoted in the race thread and perhaps you too think that because this term comes from the organizing of progressive PoC, it gets to go unexamined -- wishful thinking.

you get to make points about gender. i get to make points about race. i have not let anything go unexamined, but thanks for accusing me of not being able to think critically about issues related to an issue in my own community. i have never in any discussion i've participated in on bfp tried to get out of thinking critically about anything. i might be wrong and fuck up but i do not let anything go unexamined. i'm really insulted that you are accusing me of that.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

you get to make points about gender. i get to make points about race. i have not let anything go unexamined, but thanks for accusing me of not being able to think critically about issues related to an issue in my own community. i have never in any discussion i've participated in on bfp tried to get out of thinking critically about anything. i might be wrong and fuck up but i do not let anything go unexamined. i'm really insulted that you are accusing me of that.

Read what I said. I said -- or meant to say -- that anyone who expects others -- the world -- to not examine the term, take it apart, look at it, see if it works -- just because it came out of a progressive movement of PoC is engaging in some wishful thinking.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

Read what I said. I said -- or meant to say -- that anyone who expects others -- the world -- to not examine the term, take it apart, look at it, see if it works -- just because it came out of a progressive movement of PoC is engaging in some wishful thinking.

OH MY EFFING GOD.

martina, i have NOT SAID ONCE that people should not examine the term or take it apart.

i HAVE tried to introduce context for how the term came about and how and why it is used.

my point is trying to have an abstract discussion about a term that is not rooted in its history and context is hella fucked up. pretty much all the posts in this thread are against the term being used. few have bothered to acknowledge where the term came from, why it came about in the first place, or bothered to try to understand why other people might find it useful. ZERO context whatsoever.

oh, and i did read what you said. you out and out said that i am arguing against examining something critically JUST because it came out of progressive poc community. that is DISGUSTING and minimizing and if anyone here thinks that about me then clearly y'all don't know me all that well.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

oh, and i did read what you said. you out and out said that i am arguing against examining something critically JUST because it came out of progressive poc community. that is DISGUSTING and minimizing and if anyone here thinks that about me then clearly y'all don't know me all that well.

You said that you wouldn't lose much sleep if some folks felt excluded. That is opting out of the discussion. The author of the article quoted in the race thread used the argument that because of the provenance of the term -- progressive PoC -- it should not be opposed. He said things like we spend too much time fighting amongst ourselves and said that the reason that some folks are upset is the lost privilege of naming (could be true). He also had this poetic final paragraph encouraging people to just ACCEPT it.

No. The gender politics are objectionable. Provenance is not all. Sorry.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

You said that you wouldn't lose much sleep if some folks felt excluded. That is opting out of the discussion. The author of the article quoted in the race thread used the argument that because of the provenance of the term -- progressive PoC -- it should not be opposed. He said things like we spend too much time fighting amongst ourselves and said that the reason that some folks are upset is the lost privilege of naming (could be true). He also had this poetic final paragraph encouraging people to just ACCEPT it.

No. The gender politics are objectionable. Provenance is not all. Sorry.

one function of white privilege is getting to have a contextless, supposedly ahistorical, abstract discussion dominated by white folks about the gender politics of a term central to the poc community. i don't agree with everything in that article, but i do agree with that. this thread is proof of it.

and i still haven't seen any discussion of the gender politics that actually takes into context how b. cole and bbp define and understand the "masculine" part of "masculine-of-center." i'd like to see someone actually argue with how masculine is understood in that term rather than just claiming it is fucked up.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

one function of white privilege is getting to have a contextless, supposedly ahistorical, abstract discussion dominated by white folks about the gender politics of a term central to the poc community. i don't agree with everything in that article, but i do agree with that. this thread is proof of it.

The term is not intended to be used only by the PoC community. Is it?

I disagree with Julie too.

If the term gains currency, will anyone KNOW who created it? Where it came from?

No. They will know that masculinity is the defining characteristic of the people included. They will know that lots and lots of people believe there is a center and all that implies. They will know that. And that's all.

The term promotes binary thinking. It valorizes masculinity as the quality without which there is no ID, no community, no solidarity. The thing that defines and unites.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

The term is not intended to be used only by the PoC community. Is it?

I disagree with Julie too.

If the term gains currency, will anyone KNOW who created it? Where it came from?

No. They will know that masculinity is the defining characteristic of the people included. They will know that lots and lots of people believe there is a center and all that implies. They will know that. And that's all.

The term promotes binary thinking. It valorizes masculinity as the quality without which there is no ID, no community, no solidarity. The thing that defines and unites.

It was created for and by communities of color. And yes of course masculinity is the defining characteristic of those included! That is the point! BUT the term is the antithesis of binary thinking. Masculinity is not male. It can be claimed by any gender. The world we live in, our culture gives privilege to masculinity no matter what gender claims it. Since that is the reality those who are given that privilege must examine it and take responsibility for it.

People appropriate any number of terms and identities that they know nothing about, have not lived and have no business owning. Not much we can do about that. MoC serves a purpose in the communities of color where it was born. What is wrong with that?

[Corkey]

OFFS. Look if the term is to include Butch, Transmen Boy and Boi, then those who are said identity do have a say as to the use as it pertains TO them. White or not, MoC does not make that distinction in its term. If they want to be inclusive then BE inclusive and stop with the nastiness. I'm out one almost white guy down.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Corkey

OFFS. Look if the term is to include Butch, Transmen Boy and Boi, then those who are said identity do have a say as to the use as it pertains TO them. White or not, MoC does not make that distinction in its term. If they want to be inclusive then BE inclusive and stop with the nastiness. I'm out one almost white guy down.

who has been nasty and uninclusive? i see a lot of freaking out about people who use moc being mean and uninclusive, but i haven't actually seen any evidence of people using moc being mean and uninclusive. the term is meant to describe people WHO IDENTIFY WITH IT. that is why it is often used TOGETHER with words like butch, stud, aggressive, boi, trans, etc.

[nowandthen]

Yes race matters, no MoC is not only for non-white folks, though it finds its roots in communities of color. I am not saying anyone needs to accept me or how I name myself that is the point. Therefore I ask's everyone I meet to self identify, yes it is a lot of work, but resisting my several forms of privilege is work, hard work, painful work, healing work. So I will keep saying it Race matters in everything and it is not the job of POC to talk about it, it is mine as I am raced too. I wrote this this morning on my FB Page

The construction of the "White Anti-racist" in a "Post-Racial" World is still about white folks looking outside themselves to solve their internal bias's about race. It is a form of White speak (double speak for it is still about us). Racism is not a issue over there or in some other person it is inside us. The work and invitation is to work on ourselves first, not point out the obvious. Healing and change start at home, in our own hearts and minds, then we might have a better chance of dismantling both internal and structural racism. Stay Blessed
I can not separate out race and gender as they are linked in the material world and have consequences good and bad.

Here is a link to my blog where I ask other white folks to engage in conversations about what it means to be white. http://twistedqueer.wordpress.com/

The hardest thing I had to realize is that How others see me matters in how they response to my Body, not my heart, In the world I am seen in almost 80% of my life as White and male, not Butch and masculine. Painful as that truth is. That Truth was not made by me, it is a structural system that I live in queer or not.
Race and gender create for me white male privilege, and as a white masculine queer feminist raised in queer community since I was 18 that is painful to see and accept, not from a place of guilt or shame but from a place of awakening and healing.

[Toughy]

I went through a huge learning curve about this term in a 3 day time frame at the BV conference. There is a thread on this site that goes through that entire episode. Find it if you want to see how it went and you will get to see my process in it. I did suggest BV tweak the verbiage a bit so the white butch folk would calm down. There was a lot of un-examined racism on the part of many involved.

The term MoC, like the term Stud comes from communities of color. If white folk 'feel it' then good. If white folk don't feel it, then don't claim it. If you only spend time in white non-academic culture you most likely will not ever hear MoC or Stud. I have seen huge amounts of outrage from white folk over calling a butch a stud.

Communities and conferences get to define themselves as they see fit and sometimes it's damn hard when white folk are not in charge of how that definition comes about.

I'm done......this brings up painful stuff for me...didn't know I had not resolved all of it.....that was a damn hard painful weekend and at the same time one of the most uplifting experiences I ever had.

[Boots13]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I went through a huge learning curve about this term in a 3 day time frame at the BV conference. There is a thread on this site that goes through that entire episode. Find it if you want to see how it went and you will get to see my process in it. I did suggest BV tweak the verbiage a bit so the white butch folk would calm down. There was a lot of un-examined racism on the part of many involved.

The term MoC, like the term Stud comes from communities of color. If white folk 'feel it' then good. If white folk don't feel it, then don't claim it. If you only spend time in white non-academic culture you most likely will not ever hear MoC or Stud. I have seen huge amounts of outrage from white folk over calling a butch a stud.

Thanks for posting Toughy. For me its not about claiming this, actually my reaction is to NOT stake any claim... but for me, its about trying to understand this.
Just when I think I "get it" a new term is introduced and it shakes the underpinnings of my "comfort zone" ...and thats a GOOD thing.

I will look for the thread.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by aishah

OH MY EFFING GOD.

martina, i have NOT SAID ONCE that people should not examine the term or take it apart.

i HAVE tried to introduce context for how the term came about and how and why it is used.

my point is trying to have an abstract discussion about a term that is not rooted in its history and context is hella fucked up. pretty much all the posts in this thread are against the term being used. few have bothered to acknowledge where the term came from, why it came about in the first place, or bothered to try to understand why other people might find it useful. ZERO context whatsoever.

oh, and i did read what you said. you out and out said that i am arguing against examining something critically JUST because it came out of progressive poc community. that is DISGUSTING and minimizing and if anyone here thinks that about me then clearly y'all don't know me all that well.

Aishah, I am glad to see you posting a bit more again. What I am going to say may offend you, I hope not. Many people here from this site were at the first BV conference here in the SF Bay Area. Some of the people that are founders of BV and/or Board Members are members from this site and/or the old DASH site. Brown Bois is not BV but Brown Bois and BV do have members/participants active in both groups. Here on this site when BV first started to use this term MOC there was much discussion on this site. Maybe someone who has the technical savy will provide the link for you.

I am an older POC Butch and I am not fond of the MOC for my own identity. I came out and of age in the early 70s primarily in a B-F POC community in Los Angeles. There were many of us that used the term Butch for our self identity. It was not a popular or venerated label/identity back then with white lesbians. Mind you, this is my experience. We do have female identified butches here that have another experience.

I have had brief communication with Cole about MOC and she knows how I feel about the term MOC. Cole is younger then me and said this is how it was for her growing up in Oakland. POC not being comfortable with the term Butch.

What I don't understand is I see many people claiming the right to ID as they desire but yet when they see someone that may not see the identity of Butch as they do for themselves, all of a sudden it is not okay to "self identity." ( I am not inferring this is your bias.)

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Aishah, I am glad to see you posting a bit more again. What I am going to say may offend you, I hope not. Many people here from this site were at the first BV conference here in the SF Bay Area. Some of the people that are founders of BV and/or Board Members are members from this site and/or the old DASH site. Brown Bois is not BV but Brown Bois and BV do have members/participants active in both groups. Here on this site when BV first started to use this term MOC there was much discussion on this site. Maybe someone who has the technical savy will provide the link for you.

I am an older POC Butch and I am not fond of the MOC for my own identity. I came out and of age in the early 70s primarily in a B-F POC community in Los Angeles. There were many of us that used the term Butch for our self identity. It was not a popular or venerated label/identity back then with white lesbians. Mind you, this is my experience. We do have female identified butches here that have another experience.

I have had brief communication with Cole about MOC and she knows how I feel about the term MOC. Cole is younger then me and said this is how it was for her growing up in Oakland. POC not being comfortable with the term Butch.

What I don't understand is I see many people claiming the right to ID as they desire but yet when they see someone that may not see the identity of Butch as they do for themselves, all of a sudden it is not okay to "self identity." ( I am not inferring this is your bias.)

thanks for your input, greyson...it definitely helped me understand more about the history. i am not that familiar with the history of butch voices but am with bbp.

one thing that has occurred to me is that i wonder if anyone has ever brought up the fact that the "butch" in "butch voices" could be excluding a lot of people who don't feel that the term butch includes them because they've been pushed out of butch spaces for being poc?

which leads me back to the issue of - everyone's going to find something to hate about every term. (the generational issues with masculine-of-center make me think a lot of the generational issues with the terms queer and dyke.)

i am wondering - you brought up people being biased about who gets to self-identify and when. i have not personally ever seen anyone who uses the term "masculine-of-center" pushing it on others or disagreeing with others' self-identities. i do know that bbp's way of understanding/constructing masculinity is probably not something everyone agrees with. but i have never seen them say that people cannot do it in other ways...?

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by aishah

thanks for your input, greyson...it definitely helped me understand more about the history. i am not that familiar with the history of butch voices but am with bbp.

one thing that has occurred to me is that i wonder if anyone has ever brought up the fact that the "butch" in "butch voices" could be excluding a lot of people who don't feel that the term butch includes them because they've been pushed out of butch spaces for being poc?

which leads me back to the issue of - everyone's going to find something to hate about every term. (the generational issues with masculine-of-center make me think a lot of the generational issues with the terms queer and dyke.)

i am wondering - you brought up people being biased about who gets to self-identify and when. i have not personally ever seen anyone who uses the term "masculine-of-center" pushing it on others or disagreeing with others' self-identities. i do know that bbp's way of understanding/constructing masculinity is probably not something everyone agrees with. but i have never seen them say that people cannot do it in other ways...?

Aishah, I'm sorry. My post was not clear. I was referring to "Butches" that monitor, the use of the label Butch. I have never felt pushed by people using the label MOC that it is a "must." It did sadden me to learn there are younger POC Butches, Studs, Aggressives that are unaware that there were older POC during the years immediatley following Stonewall that did ID as Butch and were proud of it. There were also many Lesbians that now ID as Butch that would not claim Butch back in the day.

I strongly believe it is up to the individual to ID themselves as they choose, and sometimes their ID is something they grow into.

[Boots13]

So, in my rep to aishah I stated that I had NO idea that MoC was coined by a butch POC. And yet my reluctance to accept the term MoC was centrifugal to CENTER and fbecause of bias I've been subjected to or seen, Center has WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE connotations...

In mainstream, center is white. Center is patriarchal. Center is biased, Center is privilege...and that is why I have a hard time with MoCenter...I dont want to perpetuate the privilege...but then in my discussion last night I was politely and diplomatically informed that MASCULINE HAS PRIVILEGE...that my presentation as masculine perpetuates privilege in certain arenas...

I am sorry that its getting heated and defensive/aggressive in our discussions, but I think its worthy, necessary and highly educational to have them...at least it is for me...

[JustBeingMe]

Just to clarify something I said in my post above. I wasn't saying don't discuss it. I do think it needs to have some clarity added to it and see how others feel about it. I just hope it doesn't get that heated in here with pov's being stated or anything else. I was also saying it wouldn't hurt to have more clarity from the person that actually coined the term MoC., that's all.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Boots13

So, in my rep to aishah I stated that I had NO idea that MoC was coined by a butch POC. And yet my reluctance to accept the term MoC was centrifugal to CENTER and fbecause of bias I've been subjected to or seen, Center has WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE connotations...

In mainstream, center is white. Center is patriarchal. Center is biased, Center is privilege...and that is why I have a hard time with MoCenter...I dont want to perpetuate the privilege...but then in my discussion last night I was politely and diplomatically informed that MASCULINE HAS PRIVILEGE...that my presentation as masculine perpetuates privilege in certain arenas...

I am sorry that its getting heated and defensive/aggressive in our discussions, but I think its worthy, necessary and highly educational to have them...at least it is for me...

Yes masculine has privilege! That is exactly what BBP is all about! It is working for gender justice and responsible masculinities in communities of color.