Masculine of Center -- the term

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

i can't speak to that, since the only butch folks i've seen argue against the term masculine of center have been white. when i see a large number of folks of color start speaking out against the term masculine of center and say that they feel marginalized by younger folks of color, then i will be concerned by that. nevertheless that's a discussion that is internal to the poc community, and white folks leveraging the experiences of older butches of color to support their arguments is in my opinion not appropriate.

How likely do you think these women are to even be at a venue where you'd have the discussion? And how likely will they be if they are by definition excluded?

Even the use of the term "boy" in that quote excludes quite a few people.

"Leveraging" -- I am not using anyone's experience. I haven't cited a single person. I have speculated.
Good god.

I was making a point about gender. I get to do that. That the author of that piece quoted in the race thread and perhaps you too think that because this term comes from the organizing of progressive PoC, it gets to go unexamined -- wishful thinking.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

How likely do you think these women are to even be at a venue where you'd have the discussion? And how likely will they be if they are by definition excluded?

Even the use of the term "boy" in that quote excludes quite a few people.

"Leveraging" -- I am not using anyone's experience. I haven't cited a single person. I have speculated. Good god.

well, considering that i'm pretty involved in various intergenerational lesbian and queer spaces for poc and indigenous folks, i have the feeling i wouldn't be completely oblivious. it's always a possibility, though.

from my experiences with bbp, i have the feeling that if any older butches of color brought these concerns to them, or had any advice for how to improve their work with young people of color, they would be very receptive to listening.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

well, considering that i'm pretty involved in various intergenerational lesbian and queer spaces for poc and indigenous folks, i have the feeling i wouldn't be completely oblivious. it's always a possibility, though.

from my experiences with bbp, i have the feeling that if any older butches of color brought these concerns to them, or had any advice for how to improve their work with young people of color, they would be very receptive to listening.

I have no idea what BBP is. This could be as you say. I can't say that it's not true. But I do think that the objections to the term are re the gender politics. The writer of the article in the race thread did not imply otherwise. He simply suggested backing down off one's privileged horse and allowing others to get the opportunity to name for once.

Not an argument that resonates for me when the gender politics are so fucked up. SO FUCKED UP.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

I have no idea what BBP is. This could be as you say. I can't say that it's not true. But I do think that the objections to the term are re the gender politics. The writer of the article in the race thread did not imply otherwise. He simply suggested backing down off one's privileged horse and allowing others to get the opportunity to name for once.

Not an argument that resonates for me when the gender politics are so fucked up. SO FUCKED UP.

http://brownboiproject.org/ - the person who coined "masculine of center" is the founder of brown boi project and is on the advisory board of butch voices.

i'd be interested to actually see refutations of the way brown boi project understands and discusses masculinity/"masculine of center" rather than general statements that the gender politics of "masculine of center" and "feminine of center" are fucked up.

also generalization that the gender politics are "so fucked up" - so are all of us who use these terms just wrong about gender? i mean? that is kind of overreaching.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

also generalization that the gender politics are "so fucked up" - so are all of us who use these terms just wrong about gender? i mean? that is kind of overreaching.

If you use them about yourselves, no. If you argue for it as an umbrella term, then yes, fucked up -- on this issue.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

I was making a point about gender. I get to do that. That the author of that piece quoted in the race thread and perhaps you too think that because this term comes from the organizing of progressive PoC, it gets to go unexamined -- wishful thinking.

you get to make points about gender. i get to make points about race. i have not let anything go unexamined, but thanks for accusing me of not being able to think critically about issues related to an issue in my own community. i have never in any discussion i've participated in on bfp tried to get out of thinking critically about anything. i might be wrong and fuck up but i do not let anything go unexamined. i'm really insulted that you are accusing me of that.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

you get to make points about gender. i get to make points about race. i have not let anything go unexamined, but thanks for accusing me of not being able to think critically about issues related to an issue in my own community. i have never in any discussion i've participated in on bfp tried to get out of thinking critically about anything. i might be wrong and fuck up but i do not let anything go unexamined. i'm really insulted that you are accusing me of that.

Read what I said. I said -- or meant to say -- that anyone who expects others -- the world -- to not examine the term, take it apart, look at it, see if it works -- just because it came out of a progressive movement of PoC is engaging in some wishful thinking.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

Read what I said. I said -- or meant to say -- that anyone who expects others -- the world -- to not examine the term, take it apart, look at it, see if it works -- just because it came out of a progressive movement of PoC is engaging in some wishful thinking.

OH MY EFFING GOD.

martina, i have NOT SAID ONCE that people should not examine the term or take it apart.

i HAVE tried to introduce context for how the term came about and how and why it is used.

my point is trying to have an abstract discussion about a term that is not rooted in its history and context is hella fucked up. pretty much all the posts in this thread are against the term being used. few have bothered to acknowledge where the term came from, why it came about in the first place, or bothered to try to understand why other people might find it useful. ZERO context whatsoever.

oh, and i did read what you said. you out and out said that i am arguing against examining something critically JUST because it came out of progressive poc community. that is DISGUSTING and minimizing and if anyone here thinks that about me then clearly y'all don't know me all that well.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

oh, and i did read what you said. you out and out said that i am arguing against examining something critically JUST because it came out of progressive poc community. that is DISGUSTING and minimizing and if anyone here thinks that about me then clearly y'all don't know me all that well.

You said that you wouldn't lose much sleep if some folks felt excluded. That is opting out of the discussion. The author of the article quoted in the race thread used the argument that because of the provenance of the term -- progressive PoC -- it should not be opposed. He said things like we spend too much time fighting amongst ourselves and said that the reason that some folks are upset is the lost privilege of naming (could be true). He also had this poetic final paragraph encouraging people to just ACCEPT it.

No. The gender politics are objectionable. Provenance is not all. Sorry.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

You said that you wouldn't lose much sleep if some folks felt excluded. That is opting out of the discussion. The author of the article quoted in the race thread used the argument that because of the provenance of the term -- progressive PoC -- it should not be opposed. He said things like we spend too much time fighting amongst ourselves and said that the reason that some folks are upset is the lost privilege of naming (could be true). He also had this poetic final paragraph encouraging people to just ACCEPT it.

No. The gender politics are objectionable. Provenance is not all. Sorry.

one function of white privilege is getting to have a contextless, supposedly ahistorical, abstract discussion dominated by white folks about the gender politics of a term central to the poc community. i don't agree with everything in that article, but i do agree with that. this thread is proof of it.

and i still haven't seen any discussion of the gender politics that actually takes into context how b. cole and bbp define and understand the "masculine" part of "masculine-of-center." i'd like to see someone actually argue with how masculine is understood in that term rather than just claiming it is fucked up.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

one function of white privilege is getting to have a contextless, supposedly ahistorical, abstract discussion dominated by white folks about the gender politics of a term central to the poc community. i don't agree with everything in that article, but i do agree with that. this thread is proof of it.

The term is not intended to be used only by the PoC community. Is it?

I disagree with Julie too.

If the term gains currency, will anyone KNOW who created it? Where it came from?

No. They will know that masculinity is the defining characteristic of the people included. They will know that lots and lots of people believe there is a center and all that implies. They will know that. And that's all.

The term promotes binary thinking. It valorizes masculinity as the quality without which there is no ID, no community, no solidarity. The thing that defines and unites.

[Corkey]

OFFS. Look if the term is to include Butch, Transmen Boy and Boi, then those who are said identity do have a say as to the use as it pertains TO them. White or not, MoC does not make that distinction in its term. If they want to be inclusive then BE inclusive and stop with the nastiness. I'm out one almost white guy down.

[Toughy]

I went through a huge learning curve about this term in a 3 day time frame at the BV conference. There is a thread on this site that goes through that entire episode. Find it if you want to see how it went and you will get to see my process in it. I did suggest BV tweak the verbiage a bit so the white butch folk would calm down. There was a lot of un-examined racism on the part of many involved.

The term MoC, like the term Stud comes from communities of color. If white folk 'feel it' then good. If white folk don't feel it, then don't claim it. If you only spend time in white non-academic culture you most likely will not ever hear MoC or Stud. I have seen huge amounts of outrage from white folk over calling a butch a stud.

Communities and conferences get to define themselves as they see fit and sometimes it's damn hard when white folk are not in charge of how that definition comes about.

I'm done......this brings up painful stuff for me...didn't know I had not resolved all of it.....that was a damn hard painful weekend and at the same time one of the most uplifting experiences I ever had.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by aishah

OH MY EFFING GOD.

martina, i have NOT SAID ONCE that people should not examine the term or take it apart.

i HAVE tried to introduce context for how the term came about and how and why it is used.

my point is trying to have an abstract discussion about a term that is not rooted in its history and context is hella fucked up. pretty much all the posts in this thread are against the term being used. few have bothered to acknowledge where the term came from, why it came about in the first place, or bothered to try to understand why other people might find it useful. ZERO context whatsoever.

oh, and i did read what you said. you out and out said that i am arguing against examining something critically JUST because it came out of progressive poc community. that is DISGUSTING and minimizing and if anyone here thinks that about me then clearly y'all don't know me all that well.

Aishah, I am glad to see you posting a bit more again. What I am going to say may offend you, I hope not. Many people here from this site were at the first BV conference here in the SF Bay Area. Some of the people that are founders of BV and/or Board Members are members from this site and/or the old DASH site. Brown Bois is not BV but Brown Bois and BV do have members/participants active in both groups. Here on this site when BV first started to use this term MOC there was much discussion on this site. Maybe someone who has the technical savy will provide the link for you.

I am an older POC Butch and I am not fond of the MOC for my own identity. I came out and of age in the early 70s primarily in a B-F POC community in Los Angeles. There were many of us that used the term Butch for our self identity. It was not a popular or venerated label/identity back then with white lesbians. Mind you, this is my experience. We do have female identified butches here that have another experience.

I have had brief communication with Cole about MOC and she knows how I feel about the term MOC. Cole is younger then me and said this is how it was for her growing up in Oakland. POC not being comfortable with the term Butch.

What I don't understand is I see many people claiming the right to ID as they desire but yet when they see someone that may not see the identity of Butch as they do for themselves, all of a sudden it is not okay to "self identity." ( I am not inferring this is your bias.)

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Aishah, I am glad to see you posting a bit more again. What I am going to say may offend you, I hope not. Many people here from this site were at the first BV conference here in the SF Bay Area. Some of the people that are founders of BV and/or Board Members are members from this site and/or the old DASH site. Brown Bois is not BV but Brown Bois and BV do have members/participants active in both groups. Here on this site when BV first started to use this term MOC there was much discussion on this site. Maybe someone who has the technical savy will provide the link for you.

I am an older POC Butch and I am not fond of the MOC for my own identity. I came out and of age in the early 70s primarily in a B-F POC community in Los Angeles. There were many of us that used the term Butch for our self identity. It was not a popular or venerated label/identity back then with white lesbians. Mind you, this is my experience. We do have female identified butches here that have another experience.

I have had brief communication with Cole about MOC and she knows how I feel about the term MOC. Cole is younger then me and said this is how it was for her growing up in Oakland. POC not being comfortable with the term Butch.

What I don't understand is I see many people claiming the right to ID as they desire but yet when they see someone that may not see the identity of Butch as they do for themselves, all of a sudden it is not okay to "self identity." ( I am not inferring this is your bias.)

thanks for your input, greyson...it definitely helped me understand more about the history. i am not that familiar with the history of butch voices but am with bbp.

one thing that has occurred to me is that i wonder if anyone has ever brought up the fact that the "butch" in "butch voices" could be excluding a lot of people who don't feel that the term butch includes them because they've been pushed out of butch spaces for being poc?

which leads me back to the issue of - everyone's going to find something to hate about every term. (the generational issues with masculine-of-center make me think a lot of the generational issues with the terms queer and dyke.)

i am wondering - you brought up people being biased about who gets to self-identify and when. i have not personally ever seen anyone who uses the term "masculine-of-center" pushing it on others or disagreeing with others' self-identities. i do know that bbp's way of understanding/constructing masculinity is probably not something everyone agrees with. but i have never seen them say that people cannot do it in other ways...?

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by aishah

thanks for your input, greyson...it definitely helped me understand more about the history. i am not that familiar with the history of butch voices but am with bbp.

one thing that has occurred to me is that i wonder if anyone has ever brought up the fact that the "butch" in "butch voices" could be excluding a lot of people who don't feel that the term butch includes them because they've been pushed out of butch spaces for being poc?

which leads me back to the issue of - everyone's going to find something to hate about every term. (the generational issues with masculine-of-center make me think a lot of the generational issues with the terms queer and dyke.)

i am wondering - you brought up people being biased about who gets to self-identify and when. i have not personally ever seen anyone who uses the term "masculine-of-center" pushing it on others or disagreeing with others' self-identities. i do know that bbp's way of understanding/constructing masculinity is probably not something everyone agrees with. but i have never seen them say that people cannot do it in other ways...?

Aishah, I'm sorry. My post was not clear. I was referring to "Butches" that monitor, the use of the label Butch. I have never felt pushed by people using the label MOC that it is a "must." It did sadden me to learn there are younger POC Butches, Studs, Aggressives that are unaware that there were older POC during the years immediatley following Stonewall that did ID as Butch and were proud of it. There were also many Lesbians that now ID as Butch that would not claim Butch back in the day.

I strongly believe it is up to the individual to ID themselves as they choose, and sometimes their ID is something they grow into.

[Boots13]

So, in my rep to aishah I stated that I had NO idea that MoC was coined by a butch POC. And yet my reluctance to accept the term MoC was centrifugal to CENTER and fbecause of bias I've been subjected to or seen, Center has WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE connotations...

In mainstream, center is white. Center is patriarchal. Center is biased, Center is privilege...and that is why I have a hard time with MoCenter...I dont want to perpetuate the privilege...but then in my discussion last night I was politely and diplomatically informed that MASCULINE HAS PRIVILEGE...that my presentation as masculine perpetuates privilege in certain arenas...

I am sorry that its getting heated and defensive/aggressive in our discussions, but I think its worthy, necessary and highly educational to have them...at least it is for me...

[JustBeingMe]

Just to clarify something I said in my post above. I wasn't saying don't discuss it. I do think it needs to have some clarity added to it and see how others feel about it. I just hope it doesn't get that heated in here with pov's being stated or anything else. I was also saying it wouldn't hurt to have more clarity from the person that actually coined the term MoC., that's all.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Boots13

So, in my rep to aishah I stated that I had NO idea that MoC was coined by a butch POC. And yet my reluctance to accept the term MoC was centrifugal to CENTER and fbecause of bias I've been subjected to or seen, Center has WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE connotations...

In mainstream, center is white. Center is patriarchal. Center is biased, Center is privilege...and that is why I have a hard time with MoCenter...I dont want to perpetuate the privilege...but then in my discussion last night I was politely and diplomatically informed that MASCULINE HAS PRIVILEGE...that my presentation as masculine perpetuates privilege in certain arenas...

I am sorry that its getting heated and defensive/aggressive in our discussions, but I think its worthy, necessary and highly educational to have them...at least it is for me...

Yes masculine has privilege! That is exactly what BBP is all about! It is working for gender justice and responsible masculinities in communities of color.

[nowandthen]

I posted in the red zone a post of a friend, I did so in my on going effort to talk about whiteness,not BV or the history of the term MoC. The post for me help me see more ways I need to self-reflect. Then this thread pop up, so I want to be in it since it is my lived and life's work.

I find it interesting that the term masculinity or masculine are not exposed for also being part of the language of the western medical system. I am asked all the time what pronoun I use, I now answer the question this way, "why don;t you pick one because it is not about how I see me it is how you see me" meaning I am guilty as well of categorization, butch's do this, men do that, etc. we live in a world that needs difference to place a value on something, race,gender and sex are no different. I am learning to unlearn everything I thought was truth. It is hard and ideas and beliefs die hard as well in me. That said, I support and respect those who like gender roles as they define them no one needs my approval.

I think I used the term masculinity for lack of language to name myself. The markers that have come to be known as masculine are just that markers to police that others, social and political enforce, starting with our birth certificate. Masculinity is a made up category made by a structural system to exclude more than include. Patriarchy and its need for misogyny , specifically white patriarchy has made its self center. So, I like many used the language available to me to name myself. The history we are taught comes from and through White supremacy and that is always where I find the conversation struggles the most about gender representation. The is no universal narrative, no history that is the same in relation to race,gender,sex, and nation. I find the limitations of language is also born from this same genealogy.

I come to this like most of us from a very personnel place, often my first response to someones visibility is my fear of invisibility. The Medical Industrial complex has reduce the human experience to two kinds, Female and male. That is the truth, I did not make it up but I work to destroy it. I had many years of reparative therapy as a child, I had many lesbians shame me for not being what the named to be a dyke, I have white privilege, First Nation status, I am mostly able-bodied with a few ouch here and there. What I do not have is a mental illness and all the gender language we use stems from that, what is normal and deviant, what can be measured can be controlled and changed.

Race is always in the conversation because it is, the material conditions of difference have real human cost. Gender is also always a factor, if you ask me how I see myself, again I always say white why, because it matters race is not about the [I]other it is about self first. Anyway, I must walk the dog chow for now