Changing last names

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

i've never changed my name... even when i married my ex husband i never changed my name. For *me* it feels like part of the lump of other misogynistic traditions that women were required to do just because we are women.

i appreciate that others do not feel this way and i think it's great that we have the choice!

Dee, help me understand...total sincerity here. Explain how you being a submissive, deferring to your Sir/Syr 24/7 is not more deferential than simply taking a person's name? I mean, that IS the dynamic, no? You submit (defer), to her.

Of course, I see nothing wrong with your relationship/dynamic, I am just trying to understand why you would see taking your Syr/Sir's name (if you married) as fitting in with being a "misogynistic tradition" (and therefore problematic), when your daily dynamic includes your deferring to her?

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Dee, help me understand...total sincerity here. Explain how you being a submissive, deferring to your Sir/Syr 24/7 is not more deferential than simply taking a person's name? I mean, that IS the dynamic, no? You submit (defer), to her.

Of course, I see nothing wrong with your relationship/dynamic, I am just trying to understand why you would see taking your Syr/Sir's name (if you married) as fitting in with being a "misogynistic tradition" (and therefore problematic), when your daily dynamic includes your deferring to her?

Do you equate a femme taking the butches name as being deferential to that butch?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

Do you equate a femme taking the butches name as being deferential to that butch?

Not at all. That is what I assumed that was what you were saying. Or perhaps you only see it that way in terms of biological males? I thought you were saying this is why you did not take your ex-husband's name? Or perhaps I didn't understand your post?

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Not at all. That is what I assumed that was what you were saying. Or perhaps you only see it that way in terms of biological males? I thought you were saying this is why you did not take your ex-husband's name? Or perhaps I didn't understand your post?

i am an individual. i've felt this way no matter what the relationship, even in my Master/slave relationship, even more so.

For *me*, changing my name feels like i am giving up who i am, and i am not willing to do that.

i love how some see this ritual, i just do not feel that way.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

i am an individual. i've felt this way no matter what the relationship, even in my Master/slave relationship, even more so.

For *me*, changing my name feels like i am giving up who i am, and i am not willing to do that.

i love how some see this ritual, i just do not feel that way.

Thank you for explaining. :-)

[Martina]

I think it's generational in part. The pendulum seems to have swung back some. I think it's too bad if someone is pressured to change her name when she doesn't want to. Worse than too bad. But if you want to, if it means something to you to change it, I say go for it. It can mean a lot of good things, mostly that we are forming a family. We are not just lovers, we are kin. We share our property, our place in this world, our fates.

Speaking of property, I know happily married people who have never even merged their finances. LONG married folks. One of my best friend's best friend -- she and her husband cover the expenses 50-50 and have separate accounts. I have no idea if they are even each other's beneficiaries. I assume so. And I really don't have a judgement because it works for them.

But for me, the ideal is for people to pull together. It's a long road, and it is good to know that other person is all in.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think it's generational in part. The pendulum seems to have swung back some. I think it's too bad if someone is pressured to change her name when she doesn't want to. Worse than too bad. But if you want to, if it means something to you to change it, I say go for it. It can mean a lot of good things, mostly that we are forming a family. We are not just lovers, we are kin. We share our property, our place in this world, our fates.

Speaking of property, I know happily married people who have never even merged their finances. LONG married folks. One of my best friend's best friend -- she and her husband cover the expenses 50-50 and have separate accounts. I have no idea if they are even each other's beneficiaries. I assume so. And I really don't have a judgement because it works for them.

But for me, the ideal is for people to pull together. It's a long road, and it is good to know that other person is all in.

Yes, I have noticed more and more the separate account approach. I think that whatever feels comfortable for the couple (assuming it is comfortable for both), is ok. We all define the choices we make differently. For one person, changing their name is heteronormative, for another, it creates a feeling of unity.

[imperfect_cupcake]

but the husband changing his name to the wife's is not heteronormative. that's kinda my point. that's really a big fat option that men don't really do very often. and neither do the butches on this board. am I wrong?

I'm starting to feel like I'm speaking Russian here...

people say its just to come together, to have a common bond, a common name. OK. then butches can obviously take femmes names. soooo why is that the much rarer option? hello? if its ONLY a matter of sharing a name, then why is it so rare for butches here to take the femmes name? I'm not buying that "its a common name" is the *only* reason." it is*a* reason, but its not the only one or there would be far more butches with femme's last names.

OK. this was silly to try and come back to. I'm going to turn off phone and sit on hands and go to school.

[MsTinkerbelly]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

but the husband changing his name to the wife's is not heteronormative. that's kinda my point. that's really a big fat option that men don't really do very often. and neither do the butches on this board. am I wrong?

I'm starting to feel like I'm speaking Russian here...

people say its just to come together, to have a common bond, a common name. OK. then butches can obviously take femmes names. soooo why is that the much rarer option? hello? if its ONLY a matter of sharing a name, then why is it so rare for butches here to take the femmes name? I'm not buying that "its a common name" is the *only* reason." it is*a* reason, but its not the only one or there would be far more butches with femme's last names.

OK. this was silly to try and come back to. I'm going to turn off phone and sit on hands and go to school.

Part of your frustration (correct me if i'm wrong) seems to be that we are all ignoring your very valid question and defending our position whether for or against names changes. When i feel judged and ridiculed (my feeling whether valid or not) i want to do my very best to put my point of view out there as clearly as possible and explain why the collective you can't possibly be right.

Sigh...what a lot of wasted energy!

I do not see butches changing names as often as femmes changing names...most butches probably would laugh at you or be highly offended were you to suggest it. It is "normal" in our culture for women to take the males names, and in our efforts for acceptance in this society we "ape" what we see and are brought up living (most of us) in our own homes. Most see butches as the "male" partner, right or wrong, good or bad...and if i'm honest i do defer to Kasey in many things.

You know that commercial "we've come a long way baby"? Maybe not so much.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly

I do not see butches changing names as often as femmes changing names...most butches probably would laugh at you or be highly offended were you to suggest it. It is "normal" in our culture for women to take the males names, and in our efforts for acceptance in this society we "ape" what we see and are brought up living (most of us) in our own homes. Most see butches as the "male" partner, right or wrong, good or bad...and if i'm honest i do defer to Kasey in many things.

You know that commercial "we've come a long way baby"? Maybe not so much.

So are you saying that's a good thing or a bad thing? Are you proud and happy that it's that way? Or just okay with it? Or not so happy, maybe resigned to it, because "that's the way it's always been," which seems to be your point?

To "ape" something has negative connotations, so that's why I'm asking.

[MsTinkerbelly]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

So are you saying that's a good thing or a bad thing? Are you proud and happy that it's that way? Or just okay with it? Or not so happy, maybe resigned to it, because "that's the way it's always been," which seems to be your point?

To "ape" something has negative connotations, so that's why I'm asking.

I've been thinking about your questions all day, and i'll try to be clear in my answers.

I'm not certain that it is a good or bad thing to to enjoy the status quo...certainly if there is harm being done by the continuing of "tradition" then it should be looked at and modified where necessary. In *my* opinion no one is being harmed by changing their names unless somehow forced into doing so. I personally love having the same last name as my wife, i love the feeling of "us" that it gives me.

You know, several people have stated that they wouldn't be with someone that would change their name or ask for their partner/spouse to change theirs...i personally wouldn't be with someone that wouldn't

To each his/her own.

As far as the "aping" i referenced, please filter with whatever word you prefer for mimic or what have you. I'm not going to get into a pissing match about negative sounding words.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

but the husband changing his name to the wife's is not heteronormative. that's kinda my point. that's really a big fat option that men don't really do very often. and neither do the butches on this board. am I wrong?

I'm starting to feel like I'm speaking Russian here...

people say its just to come together, to have a common bond, a common name. OK. then butches can obviously take femmes names. soooo why is that the much rarer option? hello? if its ONLY a matter of sharing a name, then why is it so rare for butches here to take the femmes name? I'm not buying that "its a common name" is the *only* reason." it is*a* reason, but its not the only one or there would be far more butches with femme's last names.

OK. this was silly to try and come back to. I'm going to turn off phone and sit on hands and go to school.

My thoughts and feelings on this particular question are this: But first before I type it all out I want to clarify that these *ARE MY THOUGHTS* and they do not reflect nor are they are general blanket statement to all things marriage, butch, femme, queer, etc.


Unless femmes start taking a more aggressive approach on how they want to be viewed in the relationship be it marriage/dating/fucking the feminine part of the equation is going to automatically assumed to be less than and the props/achillades are going to be given to the masculine part of the relationship. Until Femmes/ Feminine folk start saying "hey, I don't want to follow the antiquated ritual of taking on your last name, and insist that thing go their way with their name sake or any other kind of thing then things won't change... Butches/Men/Guys are going to balk at the idea and their machismo isn't going to allow them to see beyond the *I gotta have it, own it, it's mine,* mentality. Until Femme/Women/Feminine folk start insisting that their lineage is just as important if not MORE important than their counterparts this isn't going to change. I feel butches/men/guiys/male identified folk balk at the idea or don't even consider it because we (femmes/women/femininefolk) aren't valued enough and we don't set a standard to how valuable we are. *I* personally do not care how people marry, bond, make a family. It's what makes them happy. As long as it works for them then it's all good in the hood!


I also don't think that butches/guys/men want to take on the Femme's name because it's not deemed as important/ valued/ mainstream and sometimes people don't want to stand out more than they already do so we become complacent.

As Ms Tinkerbelly pointed out, the Latino community doesn't do the last name thing much because women keep their family name, their own name and it's not shaming or looked upon as less than. I am glad I had that choice when coming into my own...

[Gráinne]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

My thoughts and feelings on this particular question are this: But first before I type it all out I want to clarify that these *ARE MY THOUGHTS* and they do not reflect nor are they are general blanket statement to all things marriage, butch, femme, queer, etc.


Unless femmes start taking a more aggressive approach on how they want to be viewed in the relationship be it marriage/dating/fucking the feminine part of the equation is going to automatically assumed to be less than and the props/achillades are going to be given to the masculine part of the relationship. Until Femmes/ Feminine folk start saying "hey, I don't want to follow the antiquated ritual of taking on your last name, and insist that thing go their way with their name sake or any other kind of thing then things won't change... Butches/Men/Guys are going to balk at the idea and their machismo isn't going to allow them to see beyond the *I gotta have it, own it, it's mine,* mentality. Until Femme/Women/Feminine folk start insisting that their lineage is just as important if not MORE important than their counterparts this isn't going to change. I feel butches/men/guiys/male identified folk balk at the idea or don't even consider it because we (femmes/women/femininefolk) aren't valued enough and we don't set a standard to how valuable we are. *I* personally do not care how people marry, bond, make a family. It's what makes them happy. As long as it works for them then it's all good in the hood!


I also don't think that butches/guys/men want to take on the Femme's name because it's not deemed as important/ valued/ mainstream and sometimes people don't want to stand out more than they already do so we become complacent.

As Ms Tinkerbelly pointed out, the Latino community doesn't do the last name thing much because women keep their family name, their own name and it's not shaming or looked upon as less than. I am glad I had that choice when coming into my own...

Lady Snow sees what HoneyBarbara was trying to say and speaks fearlessly. I too thought it was a valid and great question, one we're hesitant to face.

This isn't going to be an issue for me (as I know now), but I had another thought: If I were to marry into another culture or background, Latino, Chinese, etc., I'd be concerned that my partner's last name would have meaning and significance that I should not take on for myself. I hope someone understands what I'm getting at. Of course, were I to hypothetically consider marriage with anyone, that might be a moot point anyway. And, as HB and Snow said, why automatically my name in the hopper?

I reluctantly changed my name when I got married. Now, my kids, my career, and my life are all in that name. I haven't had my maiden name for 20 years, and I haven't "been" that woman for even longer, so I don't feel a need to "go back".

[bright_arrow]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

My thoughts and feelings on this particular question are this: But first before I type it all out I want to clarify that these *ARE MY THOUGHTS* and they do not reflect nor are they are general blanket statement to all things marriage, butch, femme, queer, etc.


Unless femmes start taking a more aggressive approach on how they want to be viewed in the relationship be it marriage/dating/fucking the feminine part of the equation is going to automatically assumed to be less than and the props/achillades are going to be given to the masculine part of the relationship. Until Femmes/ Feminine folk start saying "hey, I don't want to follow the antiquated ritual of taking on your last name, and insist that thing go their way with their name sake or any other kind of thing then things won't change... Butches/Men/Guys are going to balk at the idea and their machismo isn't going to allow them to see beyond the *I gotta have it, own it, it's mine,* mentality. Until Femme/Women/Feminine folk start insisting that their lineage is just as important if not MORE important than their counterparts this isn't going to change. I feel butches/men/guiys/male identified folk balk at the idea or don't even consider it because we (femmes/women/femininefolk) aren't valued enough and we don't set a standard to how valuable we are. *I* personally do not care how people marry, bond, make a family. It's what makes them happy. As long as it works for them then it's all good in the hood!


I also don't think that butches/guys/men want to take on the Femme's name because it's not deemed as important/ valued/ mainstream and sometimes people don't want to stand out more than they already do so we become complacent.

As Ms Tinkerbelly pointed out, the Latino community doesn't do the last name thing much because women keep their family name, their own name and it's not shaming or looked upon as less than. I am glad I had that choice when coming into my own...

So to sort of sum it up: Unless we (femmes) voice and take a stand against something that's been ingrained in most of us since we were young, we basically "default" to it?

In psychology we were discussing how there are things we "know" that we can't say how we know, things that were ingrained in us when we were young that we never question. This thread reminds me of that reading.

I obviously can't answer for why butches "laugh" at the option of taking their partner's name. I think it just depends on the person. Same way there are femme's that would prefer to keep their last name. Perhaps some butches view themselves as masculine and equate masculinity in part with retaining their own identity. I can call my wife Daddy all I want and we can have sex using toys resembling phallic symbols that some would scoff at (lesbians? toys that looks like dicks? oh my, say it isn't so! imo - i rather use one that looks like a dick instead of a dolphin, but i regress..), but she is female-identified at the end of day and okay with that. Does that explain why she would consider the option of taking my last name had I suggested it? I don't know. I don't think being masculine-identified automatically means you won't change your last name, but does it mean the majority of masculine-identified won't? I don't have an answer for that.

I think there are other factors to take into account as well, such as if they have a connection to their last name (only sibling with it, family has strong roots and is proud of their name, it's a cultural 'thing'- could not think of the appropriate word here). I just don't think it's as cut and dry as "you're butch/transman/masculine-identified/whatever" and that is why you're less likely to take your partner's name. That might be part of it, might not, but I think there are other factors to look at too.

That is the extent of my picking it apart.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Conditioning, we've all been conditioned that male = superior. The engrained lack of value in women is normal and we somehow have become accepting. Blood lineage to some folks is important, if you ask a group of women what sex they would prefer if they had a child most would say "a boy" because it's thought and believed that male carries more weight in the passing of the name, which to me makes zero sense since women are givers of life.

There are probably hundreds of factors as to why we take on the name of the spouse but the one I keep coming back to is that whole primal Clan of the Cavebear stuff where women mean nothing unless someone/something else is attached to them be it via marriage, child bearing or feminine presentation...

Great dialogue!



P.S. - I'm still on camp do what makes you and your family feel good, the other stuff is going to take lifetimes to change/pick apart/ examine/etc

[stepfordfemme]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

but the husband changing his name to the wife's is not heteronormative. that's kinda my point. that's really a big fat option that men don't really do very often. and neither do the butches on this board. am I wrong?

I'm starting to feel like I'm speaking Russian here...

people say its just to come together, to have a common bond, a common name. OK. then butches can obviously take femmes names. soooo why is that the much rarer option? hello? if its ONLY a matter of sharing a name, then why is it so rare for butches here to take the femmes name? I'm not buying that "its a common name" is the *only* reason." it is*a* reason, but its not the only one or there would be far more butches with femme's last names.

OK. this was silly to try and come back to. I'm going to turn off phone and sit on hands and go to school.

I'm not going to speak for anyone beside myself here. There are plenty of butch identified people that have previously posted that they have felt attached to their last name, some femmes like myself have posted that they have little attachment to a last name. My reasons were more than unification of family.
Also, when I may not be able to share biology between my partner and my children. My Society at large will recognize the significance of them
Sharing a name.

Even if my partner holds the tie to his/her last name based in his/her masculinity, that's his/her personal choice. If I choose to give up my last name based in my understanding of my femininity, again choice.
Whether people like it or not, most of our traditional understanding of marriage is steeped in patriarchy and misogyny, but it's still a default social institution

I don't think anyone would deny that there is a trend between masculinity and the desire to keep a last name. I mean, there are many things within the butch/femme community that are based in strong identification with traditional notions of masculinity and femininity. I feel that people like to repeatedly declare "heteronormative" and I feel like this is being used as some kind of measuring stick of feminism. I feel if I make the "societal norm" choice, I get dismissed as being submissive or accepting of some kind of patriarchal influence..

Many of my feminist sisters before me have fought for my rights to choose. Many of my fellow queers have fought for my rights in my country to marry.
My people have fought for my rights to have babies/ not have babies/ fuck /ditch/ marry-- to live my true life. If I choose one that seems "heteronormative"
That's a judgement call placed on me within my own oppressed community. Really folks?

The reality is for some people on these boards, the rights and freedoms associated with marriage are new (especially in the US).You're not going to gain a representative view of trends for years because I would dare to say many of the people who get married right now or have legal name changes are people with strong ties to their feelings around marriage and family and tradition. Also, let's be honest we are all still navigating the waters around legalities behind family and name changes. Some people think that giving butch last names to families especially with children, they ensure more rights in any future court battles. There may be a belief that they will have to fight less against societal institutions if people see them as the traditional society approved type of family.

Lemme just say, no matter how many traditional roles I keep, I'm still queer, still opinionated, still a rocking feminist. I can't toss those away because I'm Mrs. "Xyz", even if I choose to be a stay at home soccer mom. I'm still a queer feminist soccer mom first.

Are these biases right? Not necessarily so. But dialogue to me
Is the first step in developing an understanding. When I am "measured", I don't feel heard. Much like in your previous post, it seems like you feel unheard because butches are not defending their viewpoint (please correct me if I'm wrong).

We are looking at a subcommunity of the greater GBLTQ community --the data and the norms are going to be skewed. It is my hope that we, as a butch femme community, can to allow for different expressions of masculinity and femininity without dismissing them as heteronormative.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

but the husband changing his name to the wife's is not heteronormative. that's kinda my point. that's really a big fat option that men don't really do very often. and neither do the butches on this board. am I wrong?

You are asking a valid question. I think some of us butches have answered it indirectly.

If you need a direct response.....I would not take a femmes name for the same reasons I would not want a femme to take my name. To recap, marriage and the symbols of it have historically been derogatory to women. As a butch and a woman, that chaffs me.

In addition, women of my generation were socialized to believe that you could accomplish a multitude of things but until you are partnered, you have not accomplished your "role" as prescribed by society. And, you were validated as having fulfilled your "role" by a very public declaration of your partnership i.e. marriage, name changes or modifications. This also chaffs me.

Above any other id, I am a woman and a feminist. And, as a woman, I have a really hard time playing into anything that is symbolic of the sexism and misogyny of our society. And, I have a really hard time trying to romanticize something that directly or indirectly symbolizes the oppression of women.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

My thoughts and feelings on this particular question are this: But first before I type it all out I want to clarify that these *ARE MY THOUGHTS* and they do not reflect nor are they are general blanket statement to all things marriage, butch, femme, queer, etc.


Unless femmes start taking a more aggressive approach on how they want to be viewed in the relationship be it marriage/dating/fucking the feminine part of the equation is going to automatically assumed to be less than and the props/achillades are going to be given to the masculine part of the relationship. Until Femmes/ Feminine folk start saying "hey, I don't want to follow the antiquated ritual of taking on your last name, and insist that thing go their way with their name sake or any other kind of thing then things won't change... Butches/Men/Guys are going to balk at the idea and their machismo isn't going to allow them to see beyond the *I gotta have it, own it, it's mine,* mentality. Until Femme/Women/Feminine folk start insisting that their lineage is just as important if not MORE important than their counterparts this isn't going to change. I feel butches/men/guiys/male identified folk balk at the idea or don't even consider it because we (femmes/women/femininefolk) aren't valued enough and we don't set a standard to how valuable we are.

Snow, I love your passion and exuberance and always have, even when I don't agree with the content.

I appreciate when you give your feminist pep talks. However, I have a hard time when you put butches/men/guys in one big masculine glop and make generalizations about who we are and what we think.

It irks me (excessive chaffing) when I, as a woman, feminist, and butch are seen as part of a group that undervalues or sees femmes/women as something less than.

It irks me when I am addressing sexism and misogyny, internal and external and women are taking issue with me as tho I cant possibly know what the woman experience is like. Hello?

It is disheartening to advocate for my people i.e. women and to be put down or turned into fillet de butch for doing so.

Just once, you know, it would be nice to be appreciated for being a woman, a butch, and for speaking to sexism, misogyny, and stuff. Cuz, it affects me too.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Just once, you know, it would be nice to be appreciated for being a woman, a butch, and for speaking to sexism, misogyny, and stuff. Cuz, it affects me too.

I do appreciate that you are a butch speaking to sexism and misogyny.

I think there is a tacit vibe going on during this conversation, and that is, that if you are a "real" butch or a "real" femme, you embrace the butch-name-dominance model.

Maybe I'm being paranoid?

Anyway, when a butch speaks out in this discussion against butch-name-dominance, it defuses that vibe, at least for me, and even if it's just in my head.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Kobi, I'm not purposely trying to irk you, nor was I "giving a feminist pep talk", matter of fact I wasn't even posting from any kind of feminist thought in mind, my post came from thinking about it and reading all the posts. My post and participation in this thread is like everyone else just thoughts and opinions on th subject matter. As for the reasoning as to why I used *Butches/Men/Guys* , well I did that cause this particular online venue caters to all of those identities and more... I ALSO stated in my post that "My thoughts and feelings on this particular question are this: But first before I type it all out I want to clarify that these *ARE MY THOUGHTS* and they do not reflect nor are they are general blanket statement to all things marriage, butch, femme, queer, etc."

So you see I was very clear upfront about how I wasn't making blanket statements about anyone.


And now I'm out, I enjoyed the dialogue and will continue reading

[Soft*Silver]

I married heterosexually this past July. I did not change my last name. It has caused so much confusion for everyone in my family and my friends. Everyone wants to address me as Mrs.....and I am still MsTia. We were given checks, addressed to Mr and Mrs.... and we both had to sign them. Both our banks wanted ID for these checks. We had to ask our friends to redo the checks. People have even said this was my way of passive aggressively not wanting to be married.
I have been MsTia for a long long time (29 years) and I dont think I need to change things

chrissy's last name is not one he IDs with. He just recently changed it to this last name, because of a legal loophole. His mother informally changed his name to her second husband's name and no one questioned it because he was so very young, but already in school.Somehow that wasnt an issue until he wanted a drivers license in a different state than his birth one.He had to go thru the legal process to change it back to his birth name. So, he could care less if I took his name.

We have considered finding a last name we both like and changing both of our last names.
but then, why the hassle?We are two old farts who just want to hang out until we die.So much drama involved,from the wedding to the name change to burial plots. I swear we are just 2 hippies passing the days together...