Men with boobs.

[Jett]

It's interesting, would it be as acceptable and defended if Cynthia had said "one of the things I love about him is his trans-ness" - "he's a short woman without boobs".

If you find that offensive, but are defending her about the "short man with boobs" crappola... well that to me is a problem.

Because I know... everyone would be all over that like fly's on shit.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Heart

Gemme - but do you see my point? Why does her masculinity make her a man? Why not a masculine woman? Why do we persist in assuming that masculinity belongs to men? This is how male gets privileged over female constantly in queer communities.

Heart

It doesn't, necessarily, but maybe it does. We've apparently beat the poor horse several times since I logged in earlier about this, so I won't go into why our perception of her relationship makes no difference and that she, as one entertainer in this world who happens to be a member of our community, is not responsible for teaching the masses about gender identity, male privilege or anything beyond or in between.

Originally Posted by EzeeTiger

As we all know how someone id's varies greatly. Maybe her partner wants that as her id, who knows? Maybe Nixon was just trying to be funny. The thing is just because someone is in the public eye it doesn't make them the spokesperson for all queers, but yet at the same time it does draw a lot of attention to us. For good or bad.

Originally Posted by Linus

I think the more important question is: does it bother her butch? For all we know, this is a term of endearment between them.

Agreed. To both.

Originally Posted by Heart

Actually Linus, I don't think that's the most important question. I don't think each and every personal story and id necessarily takes precidence over cultural expressions of sexism, misogyny, and homophobia towards butch women. And that's how this reads to me. If nothing else, Nixon's language was careless and dismissive towards masculine women, whether her partner identifies as male or female, (and as far as I know, she ids as female), is irrelevant.

I agree that the wording is awkward at best. Luckily, no one else has ever misspoken or had their words twisted or misquoted by folks not in the slightest bit involved in the discussion at hand.

To me, she was extolling a particular virtue or group of virtues or traits of her partner. I, personally, connected the term she used to mean "my partner has a masculinity (very similar to that of a man) and a femininity (physically) that I enjoy". Does that mean that masculinity always equals man? No. But for many, it does.

Originally Posted by Heart

I find it interesting that in this instance, many are so willing to shrug and say, "well, who knows? Maybe that's how she identifies, that's all that matters, etc." Why is that all that matters? That is NOT something we would say if the comment was in reference to someone's ethnicity or ability, for example. You wouldn't refer to someone as a "crip," or "white trash" even if they refer to themselves that way. The exact point I am making here is that we tolerate comments like this about women, shrug them off, make it a personal thing, instead of having a community standard that says it's not okay to refer to butches as "men with boobs."

But what if Christine likes being addressed as such? What if she's okay with her partner saying that about HER? Who are we to judge?

Originally Posted by BullDog

LOL, I've never heard of a butch describing themselves as a short man with boobs. Is this a new gender identity?

It could be. Or not.

Originally Posted by BullDog

When someone makes a public comment that many would construe as transphobic- that's what it's called- transphobic. People don't bend their ass over backwards trying to find something clever or cute about it.

What is said or shared between a couple in private is between them.

Private..until hundreds or thousands find out about it and then deconstruct it and assign the blame of hundreds of years of phobias and lynchings to it.

I'm sure Cynthia wishes she said something different or added to the comment. Well, I would think she would, but I don't really know, because I'm not her and my perception of her words and relationship don't really mean anything to anyone but myself.

Originally Posted by Medusa

I think Im getting stuck on the intimacy.

I asked myself how I would feel if the person making this comment was a random stranger on the street.

I'd be pissed.

The fact that it is her partner making this comment makes me feel as if there is intimate knowledge and intimate boundaries between them that I dont have a right to impose upon.
Where is the line? Is there an intersection between fighting for the visibility of masculine women by calling out comments such as these and taking comments such as these as intimate words to and about people who are partnered no matter their gender?

..

I'd probably be confused. I might even ask for clarity (and yes, I do do that with strangers some times).

We can't pick and choose how our community is presented. Honestly, I think that is why some of those who have posted are truly pissed. It may be tied up with male privilege and genuine offense at the term, but who are we to impose (thanks for that...it's exactly what I feel) on their relationship. Did she come to our home and say it? Nope.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

It's interesting, would it be as acceptable and defended if Cynthia had said "one of the things I love about him is his trans-ness" - "he's a short woman without boobs".

If you find that offensive, but are defending her about the "short man with boobs" crappola... well that to me is a problem.

Because I know... everyone would be all over that like fly's on shit.

Unlike everyone is all over what she actually said?

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Unlike everyone is all over what she actually said?

Everyone's not actually...

ETA: Not that everyone should be... I was making a comparison in the severity of reaction to the hypothetical situation I put forth and the situation at hand.

I stand by what I said, the reactions to the situation of a woman (to which Cynthia refers to her partner as) being called a man, as opposed to a male being referred to as a woman, in the context of these discussions in our community aren't comparable.

Metro

[SassyLeo]

When I read the front page of the article... my initial thought is... WOW she could use some education!

She specifically said that she was not attracted to or dated women until she met her partner. How long have they been together (did it say...I cannot remember)? Now because she has been with her partner for X number of years, she is supposed to be an expert on all things butch & femme; in terms of what kind of "language" to use?

My point is this...while I totally agree that her comments are archaic in regards to the language of "gender spectrum" and playing into the male/female roles that society has forced upon every relationship dynamic, I am not convinced she is "sophisticated" and/or even has the level of information/awareness that we all do.

Years ago when I first came to this community, I had little knowledge about butch/femme dynamics, gender politics, etc (aside from my own growing up with gay parents in the 80's/90's which was still early for alot of this...). I learned by reading and dialoguing with ALL OF YOU!

That doesn't mean I think it is ok; in terms of how she used the gender role language. I guess I choose to look at it like, hey...we still have alot of work to do; to educate...and especially those who are fore front to the media.

It makes me want to write her a letter