Men with boobs.

[Bad_boi]

I think she was kidding.

I have jokingly referred to myself as a guy with boobs. Lets face it, butches are just like men in many ways. Its kind of like saying she is a guy and a girl rolled into one.

[AtLast]

ARGH!!!

Who said it and why she did IS NOT THE FUCKING POINT!

I had high hopes for this discussion and feel frustrated as hell that we can't have a conversation about the underlying meaning of the statement in terms of what it says about women and especially butch women. And i believe we can do this without any negative assumptions about male identified butches or transmen. In fact, they just might have some good things to say as well in looking at narrow definitions of women in general as well as butch identity. Not all of us buy into butch-wars and hate each other.

You know, this isn't about taking sides.... honoring differences can make a powerfully strong bridge to understanding.

[Lynn]

Who says something, and why it's said does matter because it speaks to context. Seeing what CN said, in print, raised some bile for me. I didn't think that she meant anything negative. In fact, what I thought she was doing, by saying, "basically," was explaining. Who knows? Maybe she struggles with accepting herself and trying to figure out where she fits in, like me. Like a lot of us. Maybe it was an awkward, "Oh shit. Did I just say that?" moment. I have them fucking all the time. Good thing I obsessively edit what I write on line, or you would see my foot in my mouth pretty often. What she said is relevant to me. Not because I give a crap about her, especially. It's just that her comments (obviously) hit a nerve because they reflect the underbelly of emotion that is more difficult to deal with. That SHE said something like "men with boobs" doesn't really bother me. That it was said at all does cause me some discomfort. If it's a springboard for self-examination and discussion, why is it so upsetting when some of us find it relevant to reference? Why does a discussion have to go in a particular way in order for it to be legitimate?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Bad_boi

I think she was kidding.

I have jokingly referred to myself as a guy with boobs. Lets face it, butches are just like men in many ways. Its kind of like saying she is a guy and a girl rolled into one.

See I have to disagree with you here Bad Boi... Butches ARE NOT just like men, now mind you there are some ass munchers who will play out the guy role, be jerky, an ass clown, have a touch of misogyny but they are NOT men.. Now, I am not a butch so perhaps I speak out of line, I do however have friends from both ends of the spectrum and in between, who would take offense at the fact that they are looked upon as the *men* of our community. They aren't and they should not have that expectation put on them by their allies or their own brethren.


It's clear and simple, for some unknown fucked up reason *men* even in our own fold is used first, as if woman was a lower than descriptor, heaven forbid a butch be in touch with their cunt or breasts because not only is it going to *squick* their future dating scene it's going to get alot of jabs from their own (other butches)

Female Identified butches have been screaming this out over and over since hell I can remember on any of these sites..


I am butch...........I am not man nor do I want to be one or compared to one.

Ms Potty gave a good example, if she had said this to her partner

Nick is not a man. But, for some reason, most of this online community would be squicked out if I were to "yes, ma'am!" and click my heels at Nick.

There would of been some kind of rant because Nick was feminized. THAT makes me crazy!!!

I can't stand and I get how frustrating it is to have being *woman* turned into something less than or icky.

It's not... I don't experience this kind of gender wars as much on the outside as I do on here, I meet someone and I get to know them and if they say hey I prefer *hy, he, she, shym zi" then I will use it, other than that they are *Al* I don't assume that their gender id is male regardless of what they wear or what scent they have on. *I* don't want anyone to slap a label on me without asking so therefore I try not to do it to anyone else.

Anyways, my point is Bad Boi, NO I will not face it, butches are not like men.

End of my rant.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Bad_boi

I think she was kidding.

I have jokingly referred to myself as a guy with boobs. Lets face it, butches are just like men in many ways. Its kind of like saying she is a guy and a girl rolled into one.

First I did not mean to thank you............I clicked the wrong button.

Let me be perfectly clear..............

I am NOT like a man in any way period. full stop. I am a masculine woman. Not a man.

It's stuff like this that really chaps my ass..............makes me wonder if you actually read the thread............

[JustJo]

I promised myself I was gonna stay out of this thread *sigh*

I have read every single post here, and given this a great deal of thought and, as usual, am not entirely sure what I think about all of this. It's not just about this thread...that's my normal state of being.

Truly, I do get that the conversation isn't about what CN said or the context or whatever. I think we can all agree that partners say things about each other in affection or jest that could be taken as disrespectful or even misogynistic by those outside of the relationship. Scoote calls me a hot little bitch...among other things...and while I would not tolerate that from anyone else on earth, from her it I like it...and it makes me giggle and get that warm, fuzzy thing going.

I'm rather new to this whole BF dynamic...hence the "newly hatched" in my profile...so I will apologize in advance if I unintentionally step on anyone's toes. My point of view comes from a whole adult lifetime spent in relationships with bio-men (I'm slow...took me for-freakin-ever to figure myself out), my relationship with a female-id'ed butch, and friendships both online and in real time with both male-id'ed and female-id'ed butches. So....perhaps like Cynthia Nixon, I'm a bit new to this community and these ideas....

I get hung up on the pronouns alot. I always try to remember who ID's in what way and use the appropriate she/he/hy....but admit that in my own head I default to she. I think the reason for that is that "masculine" and "butch" energy feel very, very different to me. I haven't yet met or spoken to a male-ID'ed butch that felt like a man to me. I'm willing to be wrong on this...it just hasn't happened yet. I don't look at the pic in this thread and say "man"....I look and say "butch" (and also "cute couple").

One of the (several) things that bothered me on the dash site was the automatic default to the male pronoun. My partner is not "he." She does not want to be a man, or any approximation of a man. She is, in my view, magnificent, gorgeous, female, and butch. She doesn't have "masculine" energy....she has butch energy. It feels different to me...and better.

I've got nothing at all against men, masculine energy, or anyone who chooses to identify male. That's their right and bravo for them. Just as it's my right to be femme in my own way....intelligent, headstrong, stubborn, silly and girly.

Long way around...sorry....I think we get hung up, as a community and as a larger society, because none of the words we have quite fit. If I am trying to describe "butch" to my mother or her friends or my straight co-workers who have never had any exposure to this community....I have a problem. If I say masculine, then they think male. Those two words are tied together in their brains...and in mine. If people don't understand "butch" then I run out of words to describe it to them. I've spent alot of time fumbling for the right words with friends...and many of them are probably still left with the idea that Scoote is some approximation of a man. It's not because they value maleness more highly (I guarantee they don't)...it's a lack of personal exposure on their part, and the words to describe it well on mine.

[Linus]

Warning: this post is being done without the influence of caffeine. If things seemed jumbled or rambled, I blame that.

Originally Posted by Bad_boi

I think she was kidding.

I have jokingly referred to myself as a guy with boobs. Lets face it, butches are just like men in many ways. Its kind of like saying she is a guy and a girl rolled into one.

I'm a man with boobs.

Now, you may be male-ID'd but I'd bet many female-ID'd butches would disagree with you. They are all woman and proud of it (rightful so). Sometimes there is too much emphasis in society on the masculine, particularly with placing it on the top of the societal food chain. If I think of a mainstream butch (for some reason, k.d. lang comes to mind), I can bet she's rather proud of the woman she is and all her parts. So why shouldn't a non-mainstream woman be proud of that?

Society will continue to place a hierarchical order to gender (e.g., male == strong; female == weak) because changes to that come gradually and only when the call out of behaviour is done to ALL of society. We can call it out here, debate it here but if it's only done here, then a large part of society misses it. And it gets lost.

Is it (the phrase in question) misogyny? Yes. Our language (english) is rather misogynistic in nature, even if one attempts to change it. The comments left in regards to the original news/blog piece need to be educated. Not by mashing them over the head but with a gentle nudge.



(Note: this isn't to diminish the "silencing" of the femaleness of a butch woman but a commentary on how society seems to be about, well.. everything): It is interesting how in society (both mainstream and here) we tell people to be their own individual self and yet, when enforce a specific singular label on them as the defining characteristic. And if my defining characteristic is slightly different than yours... well... seems to be the response (whether here or in mainstream society).

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Bad_boi

I think she was kidding.

I have jokingly referred to myself as a guy with boobs. Lets face it, butches are just like men in many ways. Its kind of like saying she is a guy and a girl rolled into one.

This is why this conversation deserves attention, why it's about concepts beyond what a celeb spews out a 1000 miles away from us. Why it was brought up and matters here.

It's not just a prob of some un-PC celeb, because I come to my community and hear it too, regularly. (don't mean to single you out Bad-boi it's just a good example in the moment)

Why it's all such a big deal? Well it's not because I think men are gross or hate them. It's because it's part of a vicious cycle that keeps the ball of sexism and misogyny rolling. NOT that every person who does it's motive is to implement those things. But it creates a system that says the masculinity, butch-ness that we value is not the product of female beings, and the credit literally in written record goes to man. "She" by default has thus become devalued... and set to a lower rung in that arena.

Female is not a "part" of me, I'm not a "guy and girl rolled into one", I'm not a freakin' candy bar. Female is not just my body, it's my mind and with that my butch-ness/masculinity as well. I don't "aspire" to be seen as a man. I wear all "male" clothing, etc but that's about who I am as a butch, my likes... my dislikes... it's one small piece of me.

These days, in MY life... I don't have time nor desire to spend my days worrying how anybody measures me as a butch, the true measure of me is my strengths, integrity, honesty, capacity for kindness and compassion. I don't worry about passing... I used to, but to me the more "male" you look has no bearing on anything. Truth, as of late I try not to pass, purposely, the core of butch-ness resides inside. Whether I'm wearing my tux, wrenching on my bikes engine or exercising the carpentry skills my Dad handed down to me that's all female 24/7... and if I decide to watch the Golden Girls while wearing eyeliner and drinking Mimosas... I'm still all butch 24/7.

If somebody wants to devalue my butch-ness because I look less like a man than Joe Blow Hard, they can eat me, and yes I said that.

And it's even more personal to me. This butch femme community is very very near and dear to my heart, I have beautiful friends here, and it really is a home away from home and always a port in the storm... something I truly cherish. If I didn't feel this way there'd be plenty of days I'd just walk away from the bullshit. But I believe we have the capacity to, and for the most part do pull together when it counts and lift each other and brush each other off.

And I don't just blow off the here and there bullshit because if we don't care enough to respect the validity and value of all our identities, who the hell will?

And actually... and lastly... about this female ID v.s. male ID butch war that's supposedly happening. I'll be perfectly frank, I've experienced more indifference, heard more side-swipes as to identity... more direct swipes, saw more "who the hell cares" attitudes and more pronoun defaulting from femmes... by far, then I've ever heard from other butches. I suspect this is because butches know well the sting of being on the other side of that stick. And my apologies to the vast majority of femmes, whom I've found very supportive and very respectful... you have my greatest respect in return as well. I truly treasure you.

Ok apparently I had some things to get off my chest... but still the gist to me is that sometimes it's bigger than just a celeb spewing shit and our own opinions of one poster or laziness on pronouns, and we look beyond our own noses and defer to our ears when many community members says, here's a prob, can we discuss it.

Whew, I may not speak again for a week.

Peace,
Metropolis

ETA: Truth if I ever thought this community, even a majority... didn't value and respect female and woman as a strong identity and presence, again I wouldn't be here... my bitch is about lets work on some of the stuff that slides and I think that goes for all identities, not just my own.

[betenoire]

I have a question. Do we really think that men and women are that different from one another? Cuz I don't. (and yes, this is relevant)

I dare you all to name me ONE quality/trait that "belongs" to either males or to females (but never to both). And I ain't talking about manufacturing sperm or eggs, here.

p/s - did I ever tell you all about the time I had to check the oil in my car on the side of the road and I wiped the dipstick on the bandana that was holding back my hair? the (trans)guy who was with me on that road trip said that I was soooooo Butch. I said that he was sooooo walking back to Vancouver if he didn't take it back.

Sometimes I wonder if there is even such a thing as Butch or Femme traits. This week I feel like there isn't.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I have a question. Do we really think that men and women are that different from one another? Cuz I don't. (and yes, this is relevant)

I dare you all to name me ONE quality/trait that "belongs" to either males or to females (but never to both). And I ain't talking about manufacturing sperm or eggs, here.

p/s - did I ever tell you all about the time I had to check the oil in my car on the side of the road and I wiped the dipstick on the bandana that was holding back my hair? the (trans)guy who was with me on that road trip said that I was soooooo Butch. I said that he was sooooo walking back to Vancouver if he didn't take it back.

Sometimes I wonder if there is even such a thing as Butch or Femme traits. This week I feel like there isn't.

I have sat here pondering for a while now. I've got nothing in the matching trait department since you nixed childbirth.

But are men and women really the same as each other? If they are not that different?

I don't think so.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I have sat here pondering for a while now. I've got nothing in the matching trait department since you nixed childbirth.

But are men and women really the same as each other? If they are not that different?

I don't think so.

I think men and women are the same. I mean there are no emotional/character traits that a person can say "women are" or "men are" without someone knowing several instances where a woman wasn't, or a man isn't - and finding that the trait that you attached to womanhood or manhood fits the opposite sex as well.

I just don't buy that men are from mars and women are from venus. I don't think we are hardwired differently from one another. SOCIALISED differently, yes. But hardwired? I just don't see it.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I think men and women are the same. I mean there are no emotional/character traits that a person can say "women are" or "men are" without someone knowing several instances where a woman wasn't, or a man isn't - and finding that the trait that you attached to womanhood or manhood fits the opposite sex as well.

I just don't buy that men are from mars and women are from venus. I don't think we are hardwired differently from one another. SOCIALISED differently, yes. But hardwired? I just don't see it.

I don't buy the whole venus/mars thing either. I guess I can agree with you that it boils down to socialization.

sorry for quoting myself. I am still trying to tease this apart in my head. If men and women are not different? Then how come when somebody is born into the wrong body it is about so much MORE than fixing the biological differences? That is where I am stuck.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I think men and women are the same. I mean there are no emotional/character traits that a person can say "women are" or "men are" without someone knowing several instances where a woman wasn't, or a man isn't - and finding that the trait that you attached to womanhood or manhood fits the opposite sex as well.

I just don't buy that men are from mars and women are from venus. I don't think we are hardwired differently from one another. SOCIALISED differently, yes. But hardwired? I just don't see it.

In a key way, I agree with this. Even if men and woman are different in some fundamental ways, the issue is not the difference, as much as it is the way those difference are valued. Society (socialization, culture, etc) decides what is male/man/masculine and then values that above what they decide is female/woman/feminine. That's the issue. And that's one of the reasons that masculine women risk erasure.

I actually think that masculine and feminine are distinct energies (modes of expression, performances, what-have-you) that can be embodied by male or female people.

But "man" and "woman" get rigidly constructed and defined along binary gender lines as man=masculine, woman=feminine. Ergo -- we get descriptions of butch women as "men with boobs."

Heart

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Heart

In a key way, I agree with this. Even if men and woman are different in some fundamental ways, the issue is not the difference, as much as it is the way those difference are valued. Society (socialization, culture, etc) decides what is male/man/masculine and then values that above what they decide is female/woman/feminine. That's the issue.

Heart

I think that there are some very fundamental ways in which masculine people differ from feminine people...and will also acknowlege that doesn't always split along biological gender lines.

I'm wondering though about the valuation of maleness as "better than" femaleness in our society now and in the near future. We're at a point in our society where women with higher education and advanced degreees now equal in number (and are soon to pass) men with the same education, and in which men are falling behind in the employment market faster than women. I read an article in the NY Times a few days ago that stated 1 in 5 males age 25-54 is now not working, and many have stopped looking. Even in a full economic recovery, some economists are predicting that figure will stay at 1 in 6.

What do we think will happen over the long term in an economy in which, on the whole, women are more educated and more employed than men?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I think men and women are the same. I mean there are no emotional/character traits that a person can say "women are" or "men are" without someone knowing several instances where a woman wasn't, or a man isn't - and finding that the trait that you attached to womanhood or manhood fits the opposite sex as well.

I just don't buy that men are from mars and women are from venus. I don't think we are hardwired differently from one another. SOCIALISED differently, yes. But hardwired? I just don't see it.

At this point, I would have to disagree with you.

A year or so ago, I probably would have agreed with you (to a point, because there just are biological differences). However, after having lived with both sets of hormones coursing thru my bloodstream I now wholeheartedly disagree with you. There are differences, and it's not all just socialized stuff (which obviously exists too).

*******
Medusa and getting he'd online:

I have a theory I've been working on/watching for years and years. Straight women and queer women tend to speak/act differently when in a public setting. I'm sure gay men and straight men do this too, but I've never bothered to notice, cuz I don't care so much.

Queer women tend to speak more assuredly and with more conviction. I rarely hear queer women using the 'straight girl lilt' when they're talking about something. That's one difference. I'm on my phone, so I don't have time to go into all the other differences I've noticed over the years, but I have more examples.

I think because of homophobia and sexism, if a person isn't acting in traditional 'catering to men' (read straight girl lilt, asking questions instead of just speaking plainly), people (online) are going to assume that means man (because naturally anyone who's not catering to a man, must be a het man, because queers aren't even thought of until someone points it out)


Gotta Get Back To Work,
Dylan

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Dylan

At this point, I would have to disagree with you.

A year or so ago, I probably would have agreed with you (to a point, because there just are biological differences). However, after having lived with both sets of hormones coursing thru my bloodstream I now wholeheartedly disagree with you. There are differences, and it's not all just socialized stuff (which obviously exists too).

It's totally none of my business, but I would be interested to hear what differences you're talking about.

However, I still don't think that speaks to men and women being inherently different. I think it speaks to you being a different person on "t" (I presume that's what we're talking about here? we're not besties, so I don't know a whole lot about your life) than you were beforehand. But I'd be willing to bet that some of the things that have changed about you are not necessarily qualities that are inherent in all men. Likewise, I would be willing to bet that there are loads of women who possess these new qualities that you have.

It might be apples and oranges (but I don't think it is - hormones and chemicals hanging out around brain receptors aren't that far off from each other in terms of how they effect our emotional/mental/social make-up) but I'm a different person off of Welbutrin than I am on it. (I am a much better, more stable person OFF it - just for the record. Holy crap that shit did a number on me.)

HEY COOL I found a Canadian Smiley!

[Medusa]

Met,

You bring up a PERFECT point that I was thinking about earlier.

Jack and I were having our own version of a "heated discussion" the other night in our home when this thread first started to take off. :P
Now, before anyone says "Oh God! The webmasters are fighting - RUN FOR THE HILLS BEFORE THEY SHUT THE WEBSITE DOWN OR SUE EACH OTHER!!!"
It wasnt like that - We tend to get passionate and loud but it's always because we desperately want to understand each other (and in turn, our community at large)

I had a lightbulb moment the other night. It isnt about who did what or said what, it's that the WORLD constructs this thing where there can be no "Female" without "Male". No (supposed) way to define "woman" without defining "man" first and always first. The causation of "Male can exist without Female but not the other way around."
I GET that!

Now, here is the other thought that Met just made me think of (forgive me for bouncing off of your points here, Met), but I do think that there is a very real congruency with how Butches and Femmes process their experiences in the world.

The congruency can be found in the invisibility that Femmes experience, "Oh, you are a straight woman because feminine women aren't lesbians and certainly wouldn't partner with a Butch or Transperson!!" and the forced invisibility of Butches, "Man with boobs" or "Wanna be a man" or "Chick with glued-on dick".

There is a dichotomy there too. I think my experience as a Femme in this world is layered with my experience as an "acceptable form of woman". I still receive sexism and misogyny from the world at large but I do wonder how the layer looks to a Butch.
Jack said that since she is not an "acceptable form of woman" to most of the world that she might receive more hostile forms of sexism.
That makes sense to me.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I had a lightbulb moment the other night. It isnt about who did what or said what, it's that the WORLD constructs this thing where there can be no "Female" without "Male". No (supposed) way to define "woman" without defining "man" first and always first. The causation of "Male can exist without Female but not the other way around."
I GET that!

I think this is absolutely the heart of the matter. Woman and female do not stand alone. It is always in comparison to man and male.

People even "compliment" women for "thinking like a man," etc. Um no she's a woman thinking like a human being because she has a human brain.

If you don't fall along socially accepted lines of what a woman is, then you are either man or man-like (i.e man with boobs), not a different sort of woman/female.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I think this is absolutely the heart of the matter. Woman and female do not stand alone. It is always in comparison to man and male.

People even "compliment" women for "thinking like a man," etc. Um no she's a woman thinking like a human being because she has a human brain.

If you don't fall along socially accepted lines of what a woman is, then you are either man or man-like (i.e man with boobs), not a different sort of woman/female.

The whole "thinking like a man" thing? OMGEEEE!
I think I talked about this in the "Sexism in Technology" thread but every time I sign up on a forum with a non-gender-specific name like " Me " or "Somebody" and start interacting on topics ranging from Internet Trolls to friggin' GARDENING, I am ALWAYS, ALWAYS referred to as "He".

One of the participants on another forum I frequent actually said they felt quite "suckered" because they felt that I "talked like a man" and was "assertive like a man" and "knew about things that only Men would know about" (Survival skills and guns? Really?)

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Medusa

but every time I sign up on a forum with a non-gender-specific name like " Me " or "Somebody" and start interacting on topics ranging from Internet Trolls to friggin' GARDENING, I am ALWAYS, ALWAYS referred to as "He".

A similar thing happened to me on these forums. I don't know if it's because of the way I phrase things, or because I swear, or what - but someone absolutely referred to me as "he" in that conversation. I let it go, but what I really wanted to do was climb through my monitor and beat her about the head with my underwire.