"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

Unndunn · 11-23-2009, 09:18 AM

I think it's perfectly natural to talk about a lot of things here that took place or are taking place on the hyphen site (how I think of b-f.com). It's where we're all from, right? Maybe there are a few people who found this planet site on a google search but I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of members of this new site share a history and relationships that didn't just start here. I welcome the rules of this site. It's freeing and healthy in my opinion to be able to talk about where we're from and in many cases why we left. I like PapaC's analogy of immigrants, or refugees.

I'm sure some people have strong connections to the hypen site and feel loyalty to it, and/or to its owner. However, I'm not one of those people. Not being allowed to talk about a place that we all came from or still belong to just furthers the things that I didn't like about that other site, especially recently. The thread on the hyphen site about butch and femme possibly being old and outdated terms was just one more thing that made me feel "less than." I completely agree that communities need to find ways to be more welcoming and accessible. But, and this is a big one, I don't think that the way to court new members is by devaluing the contributions and identities of the current members.

My 19 year old niece has a lot of different terms for things than I do. When I like something I say it's cool. When she likes something it's "sick." We both know we're talking about the same emotion, but we are using different words to describe it. Younger people and others with different reference points, such as urban people, and/or poc use a lot of different, new terms. I need to know what those terms mean so that I'm able to communicate effectively, but those terms don't change who I am. How would losing myself or denying my identity and worth really be a good thing for any community?

I'm a butch and that's not going to change. It's the responsibility of all people, from all points of reference to seek out and learn about how others feel and identify. It's not a one way street in either direction.

Unn/the 40+ year old butch from CT

Words · 11-23-2009, 09:52 AM

IF Dusa were hell bent on 'trashing' B/F.com, then I'm sure that she is more than capable of coming up with something far more damning than what she supposedly came up with here.

Not being confrontational, simply stating what, to me, seems fairly obvious.

Words

Words · 11-23-2009, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unndunn

I think it's perfectly natural to talk about a lot of things here that took place or are taking place on the hyphen site (how I think of b-f.com). It's where we're all from, right? Maybe there are a few people who found this planet site on a google search but I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of members of this new site share a history and relationships that didn't just start here. I welcome the rules of this site. It's freeing and healthy in my opinion to be able to talk about where we're from and in many cases why we left. I like PapaC's analogy of immigrants, or refugees.

I'm sure some people have strong connections to the hypen site and feel loyalty to it, and/or to its owner. However, I'm not one of those people. Not being allowed to talk about a place that we all came from or still belong to just furthers the things that I didn't like about that other site, especially recently. The thread on the hyphen site about butch and femme possibly being old and outdated terms was just one more thing that made me feel "less than." I completely agree that communities need to find ways to be more welcoming and accessible. But, and this is a big one, I don't think that the way to court new members is by devaluing the contributions and identities of the current members.

I couldn't agree more.

SuperFemme · 11-23-2009, 09:56 AM

I think the devaluing of Butch and Femme often comes from within our own community (The GLBTQ one). I was researching and found this pearl of an article

As for young people using Queer and GenderQueer? I find that to be true. I also don't think that anyone has touched on the fact that using the word Queer is reclaiming a word.

Is is too much to think that in the next few decades that if we hear Butch and Femme being used less that it too will end up being reclaimed in another generation?

NJFemmie · 11-23-2009, 10:01 AM

They are all old words given new meaning. They'll never go away, just have a slight variance in definition and meaning with each generation.

Apocalipstic · 11-23-2009, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I think the devaluing of Butch and Femme often comes from within our own community (The GLBTQ one). I was researching and found this pearl of an article

As for young people using Queer and GenderQueer? I find that to be true. I also don't think that anyone has touched on the fact that using the word Queer is reclaiming a word.

Is is too much to think that in the next few decades that if we hear Butch and Femme being used less that it too will end up being reclaimed in another generation?

Got to agree here. My straight friends are fine with me being Femme and having Butch partners..they get it.

My gay/queer friends think I am out there in the lunatic fringe...which cracks me up.

I think this is a great subject for this Website. It is relevant and stands alone.

SuperFemme · 11-23-2009, 10:12 AM

Interesting Article:

The death of femme
The butch-femme dynamic is dead for women under 30, who only want to date tranny bois like them.

FEMMES ARE OUT of fashion. So posits my friend Coya, and I wonder if she might be right.

When she says “out of fashion,” she means that feminine lesbians are now being marginalized in a new way. The gold standard, of course, has long been butch. Since I came out 13 years ago, most lesbians try to be butch, especially when they first come out.

Some women were just always tomboys, and lesbians welcome them the way they are. But even women who love lace and frills often try out butchness.

Partly I think that’s because being butch, even for a little while, is a good way to shake off the many chains that women wear. It’s a good way to learn that you don’t have to be vulnerable to be valuable, that you don’t have to be pretty to be attractive, that you can be smart and strong and loud, and women will not only be OK with that, but they’ll want to sleep with you.

Also, short hair, a boyish way of walking, an eschewing of make-up, jewelry and high heels, makes us more recognizable to each other, and so it is not surprising that single lesbians might aim to proclaim their lesbianism as loudly as possible.

BUT FOR THE first time that Coya or I can remember, not only don’t most younger lesbians want to be femmes — but they don’t want to date them, either.

The butch-femme dynamic is all but dead for women under 30. I’m not crying about that. I myself always felt trapped when I was the femme half of a butch-femme couple.

It’s not easy being the one who is always expected to be weaker, more emotionally savvy, less able to protect herself, more easily moved to tears. It was hard to keep my temper when women called me “Bambi” or compared me to various porn stars just because I happen to be well endowed.

These things are cyclical, of course. Another friend who came of age in the androgynous 1980s says she was horrified by how butch-femme couples dominate the lesbian scene. It seemed to her an aping of heterosexual conventions, a trend that bought into the idea that only masculine people could be paired with feminine ones.

Yet with the demise of the butch-femme couple comes the general idea that femmes aren’t dating material.

YOUNG WOMEN WHO once called themselves butch now call themselves tranny bois, and these tranny bois are mostly dating each other. This is interesting, and I wonder why.

Are femmes not trangressive enough in our new gender queer era? Are they not playful enough with gender roles? Are tranny bois and androgynous lesbians worried that femmes are a trap that would force them into more traditional butch roles? Or is it really that young lesbians are simply not attracted to women who are feminine?

Let’s face it: When it comes to curvy, feminine women, lesbians may preach acceptance. We may pay lip service to it. After all, we have been acculturated to accept all body types, at least theoretically.

We celebrate thin women, boyish women, curvy women, chubby women, stocky women, butch women, femme women, androgynous women. Every woman’s body, every woman’s gender identity, is OK with us.
Only it’s not. Neither Coya nor I are immune from this general social pressure. Coya, a self-described femme, prefers boyish women. I tend to date more androgynous women — usually women with boyish bodies who wear lipstick, or who slide easily between femme-ish and butch-ish. Think Alice on “The L Word.” Or really, any of the women of “The L Word,” who are too butch to be femme and too femme to be butch.

We might say that any woman’s body is OK with us, but what we say is not who we date. We might have an aesthetic that says that curvy women are beautiful, but we are attracted to women who don’t have curves or who play them down.

The gender queer contingent among lesbians are our current taste-makers; where they go, so go we all.

Femmes, I’m sure, will come back into fashion some day. But until they do, I wonder if we will continue to make room for all the ways we express gender.

http://www.sovo.com/2005/5-27/view/columns/femme.cfm

Apocalipstic · 11-23-2009, 10:13 AM

I totally agree that Femme is out of style. I just wonder when it ever was?

SuperFemme · 11-23-2009, 10:16 AM

The author of the article has some interesting points, but she has one huge point she is missing; what a Femme IS.

Selenay · 11-23-2009, 10:36 AM

It's very interesting that when I come in as a 20 year old and discuss my experiences, and comment that, butch/femme is dead or dying in the community that I'm part of, I'm railroaded.

It never fails to amuse me when my experiences, opinions and beliefs are dismissed automatically because, "Oh, well, you're too young to understand. When you're older/wiser/have more lovers under your belt you'll see things sooooo differently."

Usually I can swallow that kind of dismissive behavior, but it's particularly offensive when it's occurring in a thread that holds such relevance to me, as the next generation of b/f.

I don't think I (or my generation) invented sex, or drugs, or queer, or war, or hate, but I am aware enough to be cognizant that a dramatic shift is going on, and we can stick our heads in the sand or we can discuss where we think it's going.

Butch/femme will never be gone; it'll always be out there in some new incarnation, but take a look for a second at the demographics of the butch-femme websites as an example.

What do YOU think the median age is? When you can name off butch/femme people in their 20's without having to pause and think about it, that's when you'll see the same kind of demographic equality that you have for other age groups, and that's when you'll be certain that b/f will never be gone.

Boots13 · 11-23-2009, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I totally agree that Femme is out of style. I just wonder when it ever was?

Hey Apoc ~
If I've never told you how much I like your screen name, every time I see
it (and I've seen it for years!) I chuckle.
Nothing like a little chaos with color !
Boots

Anyway...this statement kinda made me sad. Are we really that "antiquated',
becoming "invisible", or outdated? I wonder what the now generation thinks when
they see a Butch/Femme couple, out and about.

I remember terms like bull-dagger, lipstick lez, sporty dyke...and now Butch and Femme
are falling by the wayside. For some reason this conversation has awakened me.

I had no clue that while we've been arguing, debating, defining ourselves , that the
descriptors of Butch and Femme are falling by the wayside. It makes sense, everything evolves.

I'm really interested in this and wish more of the younger generation was on this thread to
share their experiences and thoughts.

SuperFemme · 11-23-2009, 10:53 AM

I'm really bothered that Selenay is not feeling us being receptive.
I HEAR her saying b/f will never be dead, that it is simply evolving.

Perhaps that is the crux of the way we are answering?

Butch and Femme are genders to many of us. Identities we've carved out. To hear they are dead gives a mass gut reaction of NO WAY!

Now that I am meandering along thinking about this I realize that is how I have felt during this conversation. In my head I experienced a little fear along the lines of "Please don't erase us". In answering along the lines of that thinking am I erasing a younger generation? I fear I may be, but I don't want to do that.

I want to embrace the evolution of Queer however that may look. That doesn't mean my identity is in jeopardy.

Apocalipstic · 11-23-2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selenay

It's very interesting that when I come in as a 20 year old and discuss my experiences, and comment that, butch/femme is dead or dying in the community that I'm part of, I'm railroaded.

It never fails to amuse me when my experiences, opinions and beliefs are dismissed automatically because, "Oh, well, you're too young to understand. When you're older/wiser/have more lovers under your belt you'll see things sooooo differently."

Usually I can swallow that kind of dismissive behavior, but it's particularly offensive when it's occurring in a thread that holds such relevance to me, as the next generation of b/f.

I don't think I (or my generation) invented sex, or drugs, or queer, or war, or hate, but I am aware enough to be cognizant that a dramatic shift is going on, and we can stick our heads in the sand or we can discuss where we think it's going.

Butch/femme will never be gone; it'll always be out there in some new incarnation, but take a look for a second at the demographics of the butch-femme websites as an example.

What do YOU think the median age is? When you can name off butch/femme people in their 20's without having to pause and think about it, that's when you'll see the same kind of demographic equality that you have for other age groups, and that's when you'll be certain that b/f will never be gone.

I apologize if I sounded like my posts are railroading you, I was commenting on the OP's post, not you.

I agree that my younger friends are mostly andro and call themselves queer rather than Butch or Femme...

Thank you for trying to keep us up to date!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boots13

Hey Apoc ~
If I've never told you how much I like your screen name, every time I see
it (and I've seen it for years!) I chuckle.
Nothing like a little chaos with color !
Boots

Anyway...this statement kinda made me sad. Are we really that "antiquated',
becoming "invisible", or outdated? I wonder what the now generation thinks when
they see a Butch/Femme couple, out and about.

I remember terms like bull-dagger, lipstick lez, sporty dyke...and now Butch and Femme
are falling by the wayside. For some reason this conversation has awakened me.

I had no clue that while we've been arguing, debating, defining ourselves , that the
descriptors of Butch and Femme are falling by the wayside. It makes sense, everything evolves.

I'm really interested in this and wish more of the younger generation was on this thread to
share their experiences and thoughts.

Thank you! My screen name cracks me up too.

When I came out back in my 20's, it was scandalous to be Femme and it seems to still be (I kind of like being scandalous so no prob for me). Yes, there have been times where it seemed really cool to be Butch...but that just may be because to me Butches have always been cool and fun to be around.

I also did not take this as a fighting subject. I am fine with however people want to ID as long as there is somewhere I can feel welcome being me. It has been my experience that andro Queers/Lesbians have looked down on girls like me. Giggled when walking in the bar. Talked about. Asked when I was going to grow up, etc.

11-23-2009, 09:18 AM	#1
Unndunn Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Preferred Pronoun?: doesn't matter to me Relationship Status: single Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Connecticut Posts: 122 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 149 Thanked 166 Times in 48 Posts Rep Power: 676964	know your history or you will be doomed to repeat it I think it's perfectly natural to talk about a lot of things here that took place or are taking place on the hyphen site (how I think of b-f.com). It's where we're all from, right? Maybe there are a few people who found this planet site on a google search but I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of members of this new site share a history and relationships that didn't just start here. I welcome the rules of this site. It's freeing and healthy in my opinion to be able to talk about where we're from and in many cases why we left. I like PapaC's analogy of immigrants, or refugees. I'm sure some people have strong connections to the hypen site and feel loyalty to it, and/or to its owner. However, I'm not one of those people. Not being allowed to talk about a place that we all came from or still belong to just furthers the things that I didn't like about that other site, especially recently. The thread on the hyphen site about butch and femme possibly being old and outdated terms was just one more thing that made me feel "less than." I completely agree that communities need to find ways to be more welcoming and accessible. But, and this is a big one, I don't think that the way to court new members is by devaluing the contributions and identities of the current members. My 19 year old niece has a lot of different terms for things than I do. When I like something I say it's cool. When she likes something it's "sick." We both know we're talking about the same emotion, but we are using different words to describe it. Younger people and others with different reference points, such as urban people, and/or poc use a lot of different, new terms. I need to know what those terms mean so that I'm able to communicate effectively, but those terms don't change who I am. How would losing myself or denying my identity and worth really be a good thing for any community? I'm a butch and that's not going to change. It's the responsibility of all people, from all points of reference to seek out and learn about how others feel and identify. It's not a one way street in either direction. Unn/the 40+ year old butch from CT

11-23-2009, 10:01 AM	#5
NJFemmie Senior Member How Do You Identify?: The original lime-twisted femme Preferred Pronoun?: I answer to most things, especially lesbian. Relationship Status: Still loving my Mare ;) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 4,683 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,343 Thanked 11,419 Times in 2,976 Posts Rep Power: 21474855	They are all old words given new meaning. They'll never go away, just have a slight variance in definition and meaning with each generation. __________________

11-23-2009, 10:36 AM	#10
Selenay Member How Do You Identify?: A soul for a compass and a heart for a pair of wings. Preferred Pronoun?: All I ask of living is to have no chains on me. Relationship Status: All I own are the strides I spend to the finish line. Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Somewhere in between here and gone. Posts: 662 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 110 Thanked 1,447 Times in 369 Posts Rep Power: 6344716	It's very interesting that when I come in as a 20 year old and discuss my experiences, and comment that, butch/femme is dead or dying in the community that I'm part of, I'm railroaded. It never fails to amuse me when my experiences, opinions and beliefs are dismissed automatically because, "Oh, well, you're too young to understand. When you're older/wiser/have more lovers under your belt you'll see things sooooo differently." Usually I can swallow that kind of dismissive behavior, but it's particularly offensive when it's occurring in a thread that holds such relevance to me, as the next generation of b/f. I don't think I (or my generation) invented sex, or drugs, or queer, or war, or hate, but I am aware enough to be cognizant that a dramatic shift is going on, and we can stick our heads in the sand or we can discuss where we think it's going. Butch/femme will never be gone; it'll always be out there in some new incarnation, but take a look for a second at the demographics of the butch-femme websites as an example. What do YOU think the median age is? When you can name off butch/femme people in their 20's without having to pause and think about it, that's when you'll see the same kind of demographic equality that you have for other age groups, and that's when you'll be certain that b/f will never be gone. __________________ Two or three things I know for sure, And one is that I would rather go naked Than wear the coat the world has made for me.

11-23-2009, 09:52 AM	#2
Words Member How Do You Identify?: Queer femme submissive Relationship Status: Married Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: UK Posts: 969 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,449 Thanked 4,258 Times in 677 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	IF Dusa were hell bent on 'trashing' B/F.com, then I'm sure that she is more than capable of coming up with something far more damning than what she supposedly came up with here. Not being confrontational, simply stating what, to me, seems fairly obvious. Words

11-23-2009, 09:56 AM	#4
SuperFemme Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Permanently Banned 10/24/2010 Preferred Pronoun?: She. Relationship Status: Married (one of 18,000) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Atascadero, CA Posts: 4,933 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,309 Thanked 7,108 Times in 2,327 Posts Rep Power: 0	I think the devaluing of Butch and Femme often comes from within our own community (The GLBTQ one). I was researching and found this pearl of an article As for young people using Queer and GenderQueer? I find that to be true. I also don't think that anyone has touched on the fact that using the word Queer is reclaiming a word. Is is too much to think that in the next few decades that if we hear Butch and Femme being used less that it too will end up being reclaimed in another generation?

11-23-2009, 10:12 AM	#7
SuperFemme Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Permanently Banned 10/24/2010 Preferred Pronoun?: She. Relationship Status: Married (one of 18,000) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Atascadero, CA Posts: 4,933 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,309 Thanked 7,108 Times in 2,327 Posts Rep Power: 0	Interesting Article: The death of femme The butch-femme dynamic is dead for women under 30, who only want to date tranny bois like them. FEMMES ARE OUT of fashion. So posits my friend Coya, and I wonder if she might be right. When she says “out of fashion,” she means that feminine lesbians are now being marginalized in a new way. The gold standard, of course, has long been butch. Since I came out 13 years ago, most lesbians try to be butch, especially when they first come out. Some women were just always tomboys, and lesbians welcome them the way they are. But even women who love lace and frills often try out butchness. Partly I think that’s because being butch, even for a little while, is a good way to shake off the many chains that women wear. It’s a good way to learn that you don’t have to be vulnerable to be valuable, that you don’t have to be pretty to be attractive, that you can be smart and strong and loud, and women will not only be OK with that, but they’ll want to sleep with you. Also, short hair, a boyish way of walking, an eschewing of make-up, jewelry and high heels, makes us more recognizable to each other, and so it is not surprising that single lesbians might aim to proclaim their lesbianism as loudly as possible. BUT FOR THE first time that Coya or I can remember, not only don’t most younger lesbians want to be femmes — but they don’t want to date them, either. The butch-femme dynamic is all but dead for women under 30. I’m not crying about that. I myself always felt trapped when I was the femme half of a butch-femme couple. It’s not easy being the one who is always expected to be weaker, more emotionally savvy, less able to protect herself, more easily moved to tears. It was hard to keep my temper when women called me “Bambi” or compared me to various porn stars just because I happen to be well endowed. These things are cyclical, of course. Another friend who came of age in the androgynous 1980s says she was horrified by how butch-femme couples dominate the lesbian scene. It seemed to her an aping of heterosexual conventions, a trend that bought into the idea that only masculine people could be paired with feminine ones. Yet with the demise of the butch-femme couple comes the general idea that femmes aren’t dating material. YOUNG WOMEN WHO once called themselves butch now call themselves tranny bois, and these tranny bois are mostly dating each other. This is interesting, and I wonder why. Are femmes not trangressive enough in our new gender queer era? Are they not playful enough with gender roles? Are tranny bois and androgynous lesbians worried that femmes are a trap that would force them into more traditional butch roles? Or is it really that young lesbians are simply not attracted to women who are feminine? Let’s face it: When it comes to curvy, feminine women, lesbians may preach acceptance. We may pay lip service to it. After all, we have been acculturated to accept all body types, at least theoretically. We celebrate thin women, boyish women, curvy women, chubby women, stocky women, butch women, femme women, androgynous women. Every woman’s body, every woman’s gender identity, is OK with us. Only it’s not. Neither Coya nor I are immune from this general social pressure. Coya, a self-described femme, prefers boyish women. I tend to date more androgynous women — usually women with boyish bodies who wear lipstick, or who slide easily between femme-ish and butch-ish. Think Alice on “The L Word.” Or really, any of the women of “The L Word,” who are too butch to be femme and too femme to be butch. We might say that any woman’s body is OK with us, but what we say is not who we date. We might have an aesthetic that says that curvy women are beautiful, but we are attracted to women who don’t have curves or who play them down. The gender queer contingent among lesbians are our current taste-makers; where they go, so go we all. Femmes, I’m sure, will come back into fashion some day. But until they do, I wonder if we will continue to make room for all the ways we express gender. http://www.sovo.com/2005/5-27/view/columns/femme.cfm

11-23-2009, 10:13 AM	#8
Apocalipstic Pink Confection How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her, Ma'am Relationship Status: Dating Myself Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Nashville Posts: 4,266 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 17,195 Thanked 11,362 Times in 2,838 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	I totally agree that Femme is out of style. I just wonder when it ever was?

11-23-2009, 10:16 AM	#9
SuperFemme Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Permanently Banned 10/24/2010 Preferred Pronoun?: She. Relationship Status: Married (one of 18,000) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Atascadero, CA Posts: 4,933 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,309 Thanked 7,108 Times in 2,327 Posts Rep Power: 0	The author of the article has some interesting points, but she has one huge point she is missing; what a Femme IS.

11-23-2009, 10:53 AM	#12
SuperFemme Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Permanently Banned 10/24/2010 Preferred Pronoun?: She. Relationship Status: Married (one of 18,000) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Atascadero, CA Posts: 4,933 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,309 Thanked 7,108 Times in 2,327 Posts Rep Power: 0	I'm really bothered that Selenay is not feeling us being receptive. I HEAR her saying b/f will never be dead, that it is simply evolving. Perhaps that is the crux of the way we are answering? Butch and Femme are genders to many of us. Identities we've carved out. To hear they are dead gives a mass gut reaction of NO WAY! Now that I am meandering along thinking about this I realize that is how I have felt during this conversation. In my head I experienced a little fear along the lines of "Please don't erase us". In answering along the lines of that thinking am I erasing a younger generation? I fear I may be, but I don't want to do that. I want to embrace the evolution of Queer however that may look. That doesn't mean my identity is in jeopardy.