Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch/Femme Bottoms

[Toughy]

laughin.............

it's amazing what the statement 'bottoms run the fuck' will illicit from some folks.........

and the funny part is.............we actually are saying the same thing from a different perspective.............

sometimes I find the idea of 'humble' to be missing in a few Top/Dom/Domme/Master folks ...........

personally........as a Top/Dom.........I am ever humbled that anyone would give to Me the gift of their submission, the gift of their pain for My pleasure, their time for My pleasure and the trust that I will read her correctly and know when to crank it up and when to slow it down....I am the Conductor of the dance and power exchange of Top and bottom. I lead and you follow and together we create the journey.

[Toughy]

So many put my M/s relationships down--you don't really RUN THE FUCK, your slave could stop that at any time, well, you're still in a butch/femme relationship, we know who really runs the show----shut the fuck up, you don't really know what the dynamic is especially when you don't LIVE IT but rather read about it and philosphize about it, and can't even stay awake in a workshop about it.

I wanted to comment on this. First...........don't tell me to shut the fuck up because I live in the butch/femme world and I do D/s M/s differently than you do. I know exactly what My dynamic is..........and frankly I don't give a shit what your dynamic looks like. It's yours.

I live the dynamic for however long I want to live and if I only live it 12/6 it makes My dynamic no less valid than your dynamic.

This is a discussion about butch bottom, femme Top and kink and as such has no place for such derisive comments directed toward another viewpoint. A viewpoint that made no negative comments about other dynamics. Fact is we agree on most of those dynamics.

There are less derisive ways to talk about keyboard Tops/Dom(mes)/Masters. More constructive ways to talk about how us kink folk move forward in the internet age.

[adorable]

I know I shouldn't do this - this is one of those train wreck moments - but damn if it doesn't always happen in the good threads....

I don't believe that Rope was speaking to you directly Toughy. Unless you fell asleep in a workshop. How I read that was he was saying that is what he has heard OTHERS say about dynamics (specifically hys) that no one could understand because they don't actually live his lifestyle.

[Jess]

While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

I think that in the gender/ id spectrum aspect of this subject many folks in the b-f community are a tad rigid in what their minds eye creates relating to how butches and femmes "should" interact with one another. This goes all the way to their entire vision of what butch and femme mean to them. Adjective or noun? It goes to some very core issues for some folks and with terminology constantly evolving as we ( as a part of the greater LGBT community) are becoming more self aware and more socially conscious, we either buck the changes or roll with them and hopefully grow a little on that journey.

I don't particularly see the feminine partner in a relationship "leading" as something exclusive to BDSM relationships. We ( probably) ALL have people we know, where the "woman" in the relationship "pulls the strings", as it were. The old jokes of the "taming of the shrew" or poor uncle Jake... his wife keeps him on a short leash.

Frankly, in most relationships however the dynamic of decision making, nurturing, income earning etc., is based on who does what best and whatever works for each individual couple is just what works best. I don't see a man/ male id / masculine woman ( either of them) as "less than" for choosing to express the more a) nurturing b ) domestic c) gentle or d) ( insert any word that is usually a descriptive for the traditional "home maker" role) aspects of themselves. I think this is where we can often get really twisted in how we view our peers. Too often, it can really screw with how we view ourselves as well.

In my experience in the Leather/ BDSM communities, there was far more acceptance and APPRECIATION of the roles chosen by individuals and their dynamics as a "couple" or as part of a "family". That small portion of the greater community seems to have for the most part, worked through most of the possibilities of what relationships "can be" and do not in general "judge" another's kink ( or turn-on, or whatever floats their boat). They seem to get it, when it comes down to "whatever makes you guys happy". Of course, with that said... YES, there are folks even in that very small but diverse community who still need to one up someone else or make judgements about others to make themselves feel better. What I have come to realize about all of that, is that it really comes down to individuals and not the whole community.

Personally, when I see an obvious "power exchange" that has been "chosen" , I see far more than the gender preference. It makes no difference to me where the individuals fall on the spectrum of gender portrayal. Actually one of the most interesting aspects of it all for me, is "where" individuals find their power core and how it chooses to be expressed. Ex: I have a friend who is a dominant gay man who prefers to Top from a Dominant Female space and prefers to dominate/ top masculine id'ed female/boi bottoms. His love life, however, is more of a "vanilla" gay man. He also maintains a Daddy/ girl relationship with a straight woman ( who happens to be a Femme Top) that is strictly platonic. So, where we find our, or express our "power exchange", can be and often is totally removed from where we "live", so to speak.

I dropped the Syr from my nickname here as I wanted to be able to discuss a wider range of subjects without being judged or pigeonholed as being "one of those Leather folks". I also dropped it because I am no longer as active as was in the Leather community. I no longer needed to "define" myself as primarily residing in that realm. While the exchange of power energy is still a huge turn-on , it does not limit or shape my interactions in the rest of my world.

I see this issue as more of one of self acceptance and finding your "bliss" as it goes. If you are happy, then have at it!!! Devil be damned if others feel a need to judge your path to happiness and wholeness.

[Apocalipstic]

I had to take a step back in appearing in Public with Mr. Cynthia as my submissive. When she is in submissive space in public, it is on a leash and no one is allowed to talk to her except for Me unless I give permission and I seldom do. (this only happens in private spaces, not at the grocery store or restaurants, I feel everyone should consent to seeing that stuff, not just My submissive)

Yes, I agree with Isadora, at first people propositioned her and a few other Femme and Butch friends acted like she should submit to them, hold their chairs, wait on them. They teased her and made little comments. I shut that down immediately, and I just will not place her in the position ever again. She can handle it but it infuriates me.

When we go to parties, we go as a non BDSM couple, unless it is Slut Night or a PLANNED IN ADVANCE BDSM party with pre-arranged rules. Not a party where people drink too much and suddenly people are getting beat next to the birthday cake.

I know Cynthia can handle people acting like idiots, but for some reason it lights my temper up faster than just about anything when people think they can mess with her. Brain melting FURY happens, so I try to keep public appearances at a minimum and avoid parties where non pre-planned BDSM is likely to happen.

[weatherboi]

hi apocalipstic

thank You very much for sharing your experiences, feelings and solutions about You and Mr. Cynthia's personal dynamic. my Ms is very specific about public outings and planned events as well. it makes time out away from the home very relaxing and easy for us so i can solely concentrate on my service. like You she does not want to set us up for failure. thanks and please accept my apologies for not responding to this sooner.

Grant

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I had to take a step back in appearing in Public with Mr. Cynthia as my submissive. When she is in submissive space in public, it is on a leash and no one is allowed to talk to her except for Me unless I give permission and I seldom do. (this only happens in private spaces, not at the grocery store or restaurants, I feel everyone should consent to seeing that stuff, not just My submissive)

Yes, I agree with Isadora, at first people propositioned her and a few other Femme and Butch friends acted like she should submit to them, hold their chairs, wait on them. They teased her and made little comments. I shut that down immediately, and I just will not place her in the position ever again. She can handle it but it infuriates me.

When we go to parties, we go as a non BDSM couple, unless it is Slut Night or a PLANNED IN ADVANCE BDSM party with pre-arranged rules. Not a party where people drink too much and suddenly people are getting beat next to the birthday cake.

I know Cynthia can handle people acting like idiots, but for some reason it lights my temper up faster than just about anything when people think they can mess with her. Brain melting FURY happens, so I try to keep public appearances at a minimum and avoid parties where non pre-planned BDSM is likely to happen.

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Hi everybody!!

I am opening this thread to discuss a topic that keeps getting brought up in some form or fashion throughout various threads.

I am a trans/submissive/bottom/guy, that is in his second Femme led relationship. My first started over 20 years ago. I left that relationship without any instincts. I moved forward topping every aspect of my life and destroyed my own trustful nature. I got therapy and here I am.

The great thing about our community is we have all participated in evolving gender identity in our own way. This is why the spectrum is so wide.

I keep running into those "less than" conversations about energy exchange and how there seems to be a stigma with this type of intimate bond. My experience so far has been mostly from a corner watching others. I have been able to dodge the "belittle me bullet" from outsiders but it is just a matter of time before somebody addresses me as "less than" because of my relationship style. Sometimes I think it all revolves around misogyny and maybe even some mysandry. Any thoughts on this particular subject?? Any other subjects/experiences that will add value would be greatly appreciated!

hi jess

Originally Posted by Jess

While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

my reason for not originating this thread in a BDSM space is because this thread is not just about the kink and power exchange. it is about Femme led relationships and trans/butch bottoms. not all Femme led relationships are specific to BDSM. it is about discussing the day to day encounters we have in our spaces, living in relationships that are stigmatized in a gender specific way. i have left some experiences in posts. none of them were soley about the power exchange but mostly about gender questioning encounters.

I think that in the gender/ id spectrum aspect of this subject many folks in the b-f community are a tad rigid in what their minds eye creates relating to how butches and femmes "should" interact with one another. This goes all the way to their entire vision of what butch and femme mean to them. Adjective or noun? It goes to some very core issues for some folks and with terminology constantly evolving as we ( as a part of the greater LGBT community) are becoming more self aware and more socially conscious, we either buck the changes or roll with them and hopefully grow a little on that journey.

i can comfortably say from my heart as i constantly evolve that it is about more than this for me. being self aware will not work unles i live with my minds eye open.

I don't particularly see the feminine partner in a relationship "leading" as something exclusive to BDSM relationships. We ( probably) ALL have people we know, where the "woman" in the relationship "pulls the strings", as it were. The old jokes of the "taming of the shrew" or poor uncle Jake... his wife keeps him on a short leash.

well and that is exactly why it does not need to be in a BDSM forum.i always wonder why we have to default to those old misogynistic phrases in this kind of space?? having heard these before when describing my relationship by people who were not very wise or nice. but it clearly shows again why i decided to start this topic in the gender,labels,identities forum. this is why i need to talk about it and try to find a way to change this style of thinking.



Frankly, in most relationships however the dynamic of decision making, nurturing, income earning etc., is based on who does what best and whatever works for each individual couple is just what works best. I don't see a man/ male id / masculine woman ( either of them) as "less than" for choosing to express the more a) nurturing b ) domestic c) gentle or d) ( insert any word that is usually a descriptive for the traditional "home maker" role) aspects of themselves. I think this is where we can often get really twisted in how we view our peers. Too often, it can really screw with how we view ourselves as well.



In my experience in the Leather/ BDSM communities, there was far more acceptance and APPRECIATION of the roles chosen by individuals and their dynamics as a "couple" or as part of a "family". That small portion of the greater community seems to have for the most part, worked through most of the possibilities of what relationships "can be" and do not in general "judge" another's kink ( or turn-on, or whatever floats their boat). They seem to get it, when it comes down to "whatever makes you guys happy". Of course, with that said... YES, there are folks even in that very small but diverse community who still need to one up someone else or make judgements about others to make themselves feel better. What I have come to realize about all of that, is that it really comes down to individuals and not the whole community.

my experiences so far from my leather family and community has been acceptance and appreciation. i agree

Personally, when I see an obvious "power exchange" that has been "chosen" , I see far more than the gender preference. It makes no difference to me where the individuals fall on the spectrum of gender portrayal. Actually one of the most interesting aspects of it all for me, is "where" individuals find their power core and how it chooses to be expressed. Ex: I have a friend who is a dominant gay man who prefers to Top from a Dominant Female space and prefers to dominate/ top masculine id'ed female/boi bottoms. His love life, however, is more of a "vanilla" gay man. He also maintains a Daddy/ girl relationship with a straight woman ( who happens to be a Femme Top) that is strictly platonic. So, where we find our, or express our "power exchange", can be and often is totally removed from where we "live", so to speak.

i understand this and see it from the outside. my life is Femme led 24/7 and i am a trans guy boy bottom 24/7 so i am never removed. it is not a choice but something that just is.

I dropped the Syr from my nickname here as I wanted to be able to discuss a wider range of subjects without being judged or pigeonholed as being "one of those Leather folks". I also dropped it because I am no longer as active as was in the Leather community. I no longer needed to "define" myself as primarily residing in that realm. While the exchange of power energy is still a huge turn-on , it does not limit or shape my interactions in the rest of my world.

i can not drop anything from my name because that is not for me to do without permission, i am owned. my Femme led relationship, my D/s M/s relationship only aids in widening my boundaries and sharpening my interactions with those around me from day to day. if i am ever pigeon holed as one of those "leather folk" then that would be my honor.

I see this issue as more of one of self acceptance and finding your "bliss" as it goes. If you are happy, then have at it!!! Devil be damned if others feel a need to judge your path to happiness and wholeness.

what issue do you see is about self acceptance jess?? i need clarity please??

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Jess

While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

I think that in the gender/ id spectrum aspect of this subject many folks in the b-f community are a tad rigid in what their minds eye creates relating to how butches and femmes "should" interact with one another. This goes all the way to their entire vision of what butch and femme mean to them. Adjective or noun? It goes to some very core issues for some folks and with terminology constantly evolving as we ( as a part of the greater LGBT community) are becoming more self aware and more socially conscious, we either buck the changes or roll with them and hopefully grow a little on that journey.

I don't particularly see the feminine partner in a relationship "leading" as something exclusive to BDSM relationships. We ( probably) ALL have people we know, where the "woman" in the relationship "pulls the strings", as it were. The old jokes of the "taming of the shrew" or poor uncle Jake... his wife keeps him on a short leash.

Frankly, in most relationships however the dynamic of decision making, nurturing, income earning etc., is based on who does what best and whatever works for each individual couple is just what works best. I don't see a man/ male id / masculine woman ( either of them) as "less than" for choosing to express the more a) nurturing b ) domestic c) gentle or d) ( insert any word that is usually a descriptive for the traditional "home maker" role) aspects of themselves. I think this is where we can often get really twisted in how we view our peers. Too often, it can really screw with how we view ourselves as well.

In my experience in the Leather/ BDSM communities, there was far more acceptance and APPRECIATION of the roles chosen by individuals and their dynamics as a "couple" or as part of a "family". That small portion of the greater community seems to have for the most part, worked through most of the possibilities of what relationships "can be" and do not in general "judge" another's kink ( or turn-on, or whatever floats their boat). They seem to get it, when it comes down to "whatever makes you guys happy". Of course, with that said... YES, there are folks even in that very small but diverse community who still need to one up someone else or make judgements about others to make themselves feel better. What I have come to realize about all of that, is that it really comes down to individuals and not the whole community.

Personally, when I see an obvious "power exchange" that has been "chosen" , I see far more than the gender preference. It makes no difference to me where the individuals fall on the spectrum of gender portrayal. Actually one of the most interesting aspects of it all for me, is "where" individuals find their power core and how it chooses to be expressed. Ex: I have a friend who is a dominant gay man who prefers to Top from a Dominant Female space and prefers to dominate/ top masculine id'ed female/boi bottoms. His love life, however, is more of a "vanilla" gay man. He also maintains a Daddy/ girl relationship with a straight woman ( who happens to be a Femme Top) that is strictly platonic. So, where we find our, or express our "power exchange", can be and often is totally removed from where we "live", so to speak.

I dropped the Syr from my nickname here as I wanted to be able to discuss a wider range of subjects without being judged or pigeonholed as being "one of those Leather folks". I also dropped it because I am no longer as active as was in the Leather community. I no longer needed to "define" myself as primarily residing in that realm. While the exchange of power energy is still a huge turn-on , it does not limit or shape my interactions in the rest of my world.

I see this issue as more of one of self acceptance and finding your "bliss" as it goes. If you are happy, then have at it!!! Devil be damned if others feel a need to judge your path to happiness and wholeness.

I read this again and took some time really thinking about it. As you know the "scene" was a very large part of my life some years ago. Traditional relationships were not enough for me and I stepped into a reality I created based on female domination which was a combination of my sexual and spiritual needs. For whatever reason I needed the healing of power exchange and that shaped me to be the woman I am today.

I've stepped into several dynamics and lived many lives just in this lifetime. Although I sexually open-minded and experienced in all level of physical and mental types of play- bdsm, role-play, sm, I honestly never really placed myself totally into the bdsm lifestyle, per se. They were elements of it I found exciting but it was the exchange of power, the mental dynamics of "feminine power exchange" that kept me interested. Even when I started dating in the BF community I found myself drawn to those who accepted my natural dominance and was ok with me maintaining general control over our day to day. I am a strong woman who wakes up calculating my every move and use to making decisions and taking most of responsibility. Normally I am also the one that earns the most income and feel more comfortable making most of the decisions for our home. The only time I don't need to be in control if the bedroom. This is not to say I can't swing into almost any direction. I can, but now I am finding that I don't need the kinky games as much as I did when I was younger. It's more about the day to day dynamic and when it comes to intimacy I want it to be soft, bonding and comfortable for both of us. If my partner needs something I am happy to give it to them no matter what it is but my needs are fairly simple when it comes to having an orgasm.

But you're right... we all travel across that polarity. My base energy may be one way but I swing in different directions based on my needs at the moment. Perhaps this is what makes relationships so difficult? The expectation and counting on someone to always be the same rather then being able to ride and shift with them? Perhaps there is a special chemistry that allows us to accept each other no matter what the moment unfolds.

I have always been and will always be a natural alpha femme. Although you can attempt to keep me somewhat bridled it would be a shame to do this. My passions and creativity lie in my natural dominance. If you learn to feed it, seduce it you unleash the most amazing woman. This I have learn and shall not forget.

There is a huge misconception that a masculine butch can not be with an alpha femme. The truth is that the strongest people I know prefer allowing someone else to be in control. Not because they can't step up to it but prefer not to. They don't really give a shit what people think and they know who they are. A warrior fights for his Queen and subjugates himself because he adores her not because he is weak or emasculated.

Reading your post made me think a lot about the past and this has all been very reflective. There were quite a few gay men I had femdom interaction with. It was funny walking into a gay leather bar and seeing a select few groveling around me as if I was royalty. They needed this exchange as much as I did. We all need to really tune into our frequencies rather then allowing our heads to force round pegs into square holes.

[Sachita]

Today I was talking to an ex. This is a very masculine butch alpha type person. We talk every few months and have kept a great friendship going. This person is not submission, by no means but....

After posting in this thread I asked hym today if hy felt I was too dominant or too aggressive and if that was ever a power struggle for hym. We ended things mainly because hy had serious control issues and this constantly became an issue. Hy wanted to always be with me, plan what we did, etc etc and I needed a lot of space. I just don't require being around another human all the time. Hy wanted that perfect little world with wife, kids and white picket fence. That's just not me. but....

hy said that although I was very strong I was the first woman to really seduce hym as a femme. That hy always felt strong and masculine. I was sexually aggressive to a point. I knew what I wanted and how I wanted it. I called it "daddy duty". So even on my back I was in control. Hy said that looking back it was all extremely hot and that today it has shaped hys thinking and hy looks for strong feminine women. Still hy won't let go of the control issue and for us it's like oil and water. I could deal with an alpha type person as long as they weren't that way towards me. I think this is why I'm more drawn to the daddy types because I enjoy a strong partner but I'm like the spoiled little brat girl that always gets her way. I prefer to lead as well.

[Toughy]

by Angelika
Ah yes, dressed in pantyhose, a dark suit where the skirt stops just above the knees, pencil kind, the blouse almost sheer, hinting, but not showing; stilettos that make you afraid you will step on your boobage at age 60 if you do not wear a bra now; hair piled up, loosely cascading, inviting yet with a 'hands off' sign invisibly attached; small half mooned glasses perched at the end of the nose, looking over them at some unsuspecting Butch ... and not saying a word. Perhaps leaning against the doorway of a car repair shop, or standing casually in a boardroom setting, or waking up to sunlight streaming through my window and the smell of coffee assaulting my nostrils ... waiting, and knowing.

Ah yes...............damn woman

[weatherboi]

hi Toughy-

for me, the term 'bottoms run the fuck' illicits a 'slap in the face' so to speak to traditional kink values. it to me 'dumb downs' the idea of the power exchange. an oxymoron in phrase and theory. from my own perspective which is not the same perspective you come from. this works well in my relationship.

from my knees i say i can't/don't equate the theories my Ms or her Peers have to the level of humbleness in their hearts. my experience is they shine with great strength and that humbles me.

Originally Posted by Toughy

laughin.............

it's amazing what the statement 'bottoms run the fuck' will illicit from some folks.........

and the funny part is.............we actually are saying the same thing from a different perspective.............

sometimes I find the idea of 'humble' to be missing in a few Top/Dom/Domme/Master folks ...........

personally........as a Top/Dom.........I am ever humbled that anyone would give to Me the gift of their submission, the gift of their pain for My pleasure, their time for My pleasure and the trust that I will read her correctly and know when to crank it up and when to slow it down....I am the Conductor of the dance and power exchange of Top and bottom. I lead and you follow and together we create the journey.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Jess

While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

Hi, Jess. I can't speak to most of your post, but I can tell you that I appreciate this thread being out in the wider forums, so to speak, since I don't read the BDSM forums and would have missed out on it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I've been Mama in several relationships with boys, one a Transman, several of them Butches; I've also informally been Mama to several bois/boys and girls/grrls, not as part of a sexual relationship but in an extended family way during times that they needed extra support. I am most decidedly not Leather, nor a part of the BDSM community; none of my Mama/b/g relationships have been about Leather, BDSM, or kink (not even the sexual ones).

The gender issues I as a Mama have run into in the community have been from Butches and Transmen, all of them Daddies or Syrs/Sirs who were... oh, a polite way to describe their reactions to me... um... highly threatened by the idea that anyone at all might think they would allow a woman (interestingly, they ALL insisted on referring to me as a woman even when I said I preferred to be called a femme) to dominate them in any way. The impression I got was that it was extremely threatening to them to allow themselves even to seem to be vulnerable to strong female energy; they were only comfortable if they were clearly in control of and dominating that energy.

I always took this to be an issue that was individual to the people in question, rather than an issue that was widespread in the butch/femme community. I see from reading this thread that I may have been wrong, and that there seem to be way more people (of all gender IDs) who are threatened than I previously realized.

In my experience, put-downs and disrespect usually come from people trying to mask their own vulnerabilities and fears behind scathing derision. I'm sorry that any of us ever has to endure that... and I'm also sorry that anyone has to feel so threatened, so insignificant and frightened, that they would only feel safe by putting others down and treating their relationships with disrespect. That's really sad that so many of us might be so badly hurt in that way, yanno?

About switching, it's been my personal experience that my relationships are received easily and treated with respect by people who know that we switch between Daddy/girl and Mama/boy. I suspect, having read the thread, that it might not be such an easy thing if Gryph and I were to say that Gryph was only my boy and that I was the dominant one in the relationship.

The truth is that we're both dominant and--at the same time--we're both equals. I know that sounds complicated but actually it's the simplest relationship I've ever had. We both check in quite frequently to make sure the other's needs are met, and we're both always willing to compromise to make the other happy.

I think maybe what makes other people comfortable with our relationship structure is that we meet not just one but two stereotypes at once: some people see the dominant butch, and some see the equal feminist lesbians.

We just see each other.

[Jess]

Hi there weatherboi,

When I made the statement regarding "where" to place this thread, it was because at that point in this thread it was very obviously being geared toward a "power exchange" relationship and every response made reflected the M/s D/s variance in those relationships. It also seemed very "vanilla" unfriendly in that a couple statements were made referring to "vanilla" folks and felt kinda "othering". The use of the terms "led", "bottom" are specific terms stemming from the Leather/ BDSM world, hence why it feels geared toward that.

Any relationship ( in my opinion) that reads as "led" as opposed to equal is one of some degree of dominance and submission. It can be called M/s, Daddy/girl, Mommy/boy, monkey/ banana. The difference is in the varying degrees of submission and accepted dominance. My hope was to perhaps open this discussion up to an audience who may share the interest in the gender dismissive specific aspect of relationships and not make it only comfortable to Leather and BDSM folks. I hope that makes sense. It was never intended to disregard it, as I DO believe it a very timely and important discussion for some of us to be having.

I am sorry to have used those old "mysogynistic" phrases to have illustrated the point I think we were both trying to make. THOSE are the types of responses it sounds like you have been receiving that really suck. I simply used them to help you understand that I do get what you are saying.

The reason I thought it about self acceptance is in the viewing of our lives by others, we may never ever find a time or place where folks ( in general) do just "get it", moreover, honor and respect us. I find it highly unlikely that anyone can " change this style of thinking", when others are so dead set in how they view themselves in the order of things. They only see "you" as some skewed reflection of how they see their own "role" in life.

Here is what I see, if I may. I see you as a strong, intelligent, masculine female/trans energy who "lives" to serve, respect and honor a strong intelligent feminine woman . I see nothing at all "less than" in how you choose to express those desires, in either the Leather world or the "rest of the world". I just see a person who has felt slighted by someone who doesn't get what you have with your partner or your Ms.

I think ALL relationships have some degree of an exchange of "power" within them. I think there is a clear equality in chosen M/s and D/s relationships ( if they are healthy and negotiated and lived wholly). I do not think a bottom runs the fuck, nor do I think a Top runs the fuck. If there aren't expressly negotiated boundaries ( do's and don'ts) then it is no longer consensual. It is simply one person being domineering over another. One can be a top or bottom without having the other present, however, without the other fulfilling their chosen role, it makes for a pretty boring scene. Either party can stop a scene just as quickly as the other. In that, they are equal and equally necessary to creating that space. This thought can be extrapolated to the power exchange dynamic in the larger relationship, not just scene specific.

For me personally, it becomes tricky to have discussions relating to Leather/ BDSM dynamics in non Leather/ BDSM spaces as it is neither safe nor respectful of non BDSM folks. For some folks, for example, even the use of the phrase "without permission" regarding what one person in a relationship can do, can be seen as very offensive or abusive. This can very quickly shut them down to the deeper issue being discussed ( which is about gender and roles within a relationship). It's akin to going to a public restaurant and using your slave as an ashtray. It becomes neither safe for you or your slave and definitely non-consensual for anyone else trying to just have dinner. Does that make sense? Most old school ( Old Guard) Leather folk I know actually never make public display of their proclivities unless in Leather space. It is part of a long history of abuse that they have evolved into compartmentalizing different aspects of their lives safely and respectfully.

I truly hope that this makes sense and I hope you will know I am not attempting to do anything here other than honestly say, I do get where you are coming from regarding how the role you "choose" to live in with your partner. My role in my relationship shifts hats a hell of a lot. We DO compartmentalize the different aspects of who and what we are to one another and quite fluidly most of the time. Our "kink" is private. Our "power exchange" is private and honored. Our public display in the world at large is very respectful of one another in whatever manner is deemed appropriate for the setting. Read: "when in Rome.... etc" I as a Dominant do not place a submissive in a position to have to defend herself( himself) to unlearned people. Meaning, I don't introduce her to non-BDSM/Leather folk as my "girl" or allow for any discomfort or disrespect to be subjected by people who do not get it. There truly is a time and place for everything and there is a reason that folks who have been around a very long time will less and less frequently subject themselves to the admonishment of others who lack deeper understanding of the dynamic.

I guess what it comes down to for me is that if you want to live as an openly submissive boi or slave then you may have to accept that not everyone is going to get it and consider more carefully where you choose to reveal this information. Sometimes, I think that aspect has more to do with being understood than the gender/ role aspect or non-traditional roles within a relationship. It can be very off-putting to people who see S/m or any aspect of it as still stemming from abusive maligned relationships.

If you are able to hear the genuine respect I have for you and this subject, I would love to talk more about what non-traditional roles in relationships look like and how the evolution of relationships sometimes seems left behind in the b-f world even outside the M/s aspect.

Thanks, Jess






hi jess

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jess
While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

my reason for not originating this thread in a BDSM space is because this thread is not just about the kink and power exchange. it is about Femme led relationships and trans/butch bottoms. not all Femme led relationships are specific to BDSM. it is about discussing the day to day encounters we have in our spaces, living in relationships that are stigmatized in a gender specific way. i have left some experiences in posts. none of them were soley about the power exchange but mostly about gender questioning encounters.

I think that in the gender/ id spectrum aspect of this subject many folks in the b-f community are a tad rigid in what their minds eye creates relating to how butches and femmes "should" interact with one another. This goes all the way to their entire vision of what butch and femme mean to them. Adjective or noun? It goes to some very core issues for some folks and with terminology constantly evolving as we ( as a part of the greater LGBT community) are becoming more self aware and more socially conscious, we either buck the changes or roll with them and hopefully grow a little on that journey.

i can comfortably say from my heart as i constantly evolve that it is about more than this for me. being self aware will not work unles i live with my minds eye open.

I don't particularly see the feminine partner in a relationship "leading" as something exclusive to BDSM relationships. We ( probably) ALL have people we know, where the "woman" in the relationship "pulls the strings", as it were. The old jokes of the "taming of the shrew" or poor uncle Jake... his wife keeps him on a short leash.

well and that is exactly why it does not need to be in a BDSM forum.i always wonder why we have to default to those old misogynistic phrases in this kind of space?? having heard these before when describing my relationship by people who were not very wise or nice. but it clearly shows again why i decided to start this topic in the gender,labels,identities forum. this is why i need to talk about it and try to find a way to change this style of thinking.



Frankly, in most relationships however the dynamic of decision making, nurturing, income earning etc., is based on who does what best and whatever works for each individual couple is just what works best. I don't see a man/ male id / masculine woman ( either of them) as "less than" for choosing to express the more a) nurturing b ) domestic c) gentle or d) ( insert any word that is usually a descriptive for the traditional "home maker" role) aspects of themselves. I think this is where we can often get really twisted in how we view our peers. Too often, it can really screw with how we view ourselves as well.



In my experience in the Leather/ BDSM communities, there was far more acceptance and APPRECIATION of the roles chosen by individuals and their dynamics as a "couple" or as part of a "family". That small portion of the greater community seems to have for the most part, worked through most of the possibilities of what relationships "can be" and do not in general "judge" another's kink ( or turn-on, or whatever floats their boat). They seem to get it, when it comes down to "whatever makes you guys happy". Of course, with that said... YES, there are folks even in that very small but diverse community who still need to one up someone else or make judgements about others to make themselves feel better. What I have come to realize about all of that, is that it really comes down to individuals and not the whole community.

my experiences so far from my leather family and community has been acceptance and appreciation. i agree

Personally, when I see an obvious "power exchange" that has been "chosen" , I see far more than the gender preference. It makes no difference to me where the individuals fall on the spectrum of gender portrayal. Actually one of the most interesting aspects of it all for me, is "where" individuals find their power core and how it chooses to be expressed. Ex: I have a friend who is a dominant gay man who prefers to Top from a Dominant Female space and prefers to dominate/ top masculine id'ed female/boi bottoms. His love life, however, is more of a "vanilla" gay man. He also maintains a Daddy/ girl relationship with a straight woman ( who happens to be a Femme Top) that is strictly platonic. So, where we find our, or express our "power exchange", can be and often is totally removed from where we "live", so to speak.

i understand this and see it from the outside. my life is Femme led 24/7 and i am a trans guy boy bottom 24/7 so i am never removed. it is not a choice but something that just is.

I dropped the Syr from my nickname here as I wanted to be able to discuss a wider range of subjects without being judged or pigeonholed as being "one of those Leather folks". I also dropped it because I am no longer as active as was in the Leather community. I no longer needed to "define" myself as primarily residing in that realm. While the exchange of power energy is still a huge turn-on , it does not limit or shape my interactions in the rest of my world.

i can not drop anything from my name because that is not for me to do without permission, i am owned. my Femme led relationship, my D/s M/s relationship only aids in widening my boundaries and sharpening my interactions with those around me from day to day. if i am ever pigeon holed as one of those "leather folk" then that would be my honor.

I see this issue as more of one of self acceptance and finding your "bliss" as it goes. If you are happy, then have at it!!! Devil be damned if others feel a need to judge your path to happiness and wholeness.
what issue do you see is about self acceptance jess?? i need clarity please??

[weatherboi]

[QUOTE=Jess;108730]Hi there weatherboi,

When I made the statement regarding "where" to place this thread, it was because at that point in this thread it was very obviously being geared toward a "power exchange" relationship and every response made reflected the M/s D/s variance in those relationships. It also seemed very "vanilla" unfriendly in that a couple statements were made referring to "vanilla" folks and felt kinda "othering". The use of the terms "led", "bottom" are specific terms stemming from the Leather/ BDSM world, hence why it feels geared toward that.

this is where our individual perspectives lead us to difference, so here we our in genders, labels and identities. i also know my intent was for people from all places on the spectrum to be involved,because that is the only way to gain awareness, knowledge, and progression.

Any relationship ( in my opinion) that reads as "led" as opposed to equal is one of some degree of dominance and submission. It can be called M/s, Daddy/girl, Mommy/boy, monkey/ banana. The difference is in the varying degrees of submission and accepted dominance. My hope was to perhaps open this discussion up to an audience who may share the interest in the gender dismissive specific aspect of relationships and not make it only comfortable to Leather and BDSM folks. I hope that makes sense. It was never intended to disregard it, as I DO believe it a very timely and important discussion for some of us to be having.

this is the thing jess...when i thought about opening this thread i realized the balance may tip the scale but it was important for me to include all. just because you hadn't read it yet doesn't make it so. if only one couple showed up in here that sees themselves not into any kind of leather/bdsm/kink dynamic then i am happy happy they are here and can't wait for them to share.

I am sorry to have used those old "mysogynistic" phrases to have illustrated the point I think we were both trying to make. THOSE are the types of responses it sounds like you have been receiving that really suck. I simply used them to help you understand that I do get what you are saying.

having heard these before when describing my relationship by people who were not very wise or nice. < this is what i said.

let me be more clear. i have heard these statements before in the past when describing my first femme led relationship, by my father and his friends. i just didnt feel the need to get that detailed in my post because i did not want to seem like i was disrespecting my father or his friends to my Ms or her Peers. She and They read this also. my point is your example sounded very ooogy to me in a mysandric kind of way. you do id as butch correct? i took the time to visit your side bar and saw "other" as preferred pronoun how would you feel if i started to assume your gender for you?

The reason I thought it about self acceptance is in the viewing of our lives by others, we may never ever find a time or place where folks ( in general) do just "get it", moreover, honor and respect us. I find it highly unlikely that anyone can " change this style of thinking", when others are so dead set in how they view themselves in the order of things. They only see "you" as some skewed reflection of how they see their own "role" in life.

again this is where our individual perspectives differ. i accept myself. when a person doesn't respect my dynamic, or my gender i think...sheesh that person has alot of work to do. its on them not me. i feel everybody should respect my choices and my space. they may not like it but they can respect it. honor for me is an entirely different ballgame. honor is earned. i don't need people to "get it" to respect my choices and my space. limit.

Here is what I see, if I may. I see you as a strong, intelligent, masculine female/trans energy who "lives" to serve, respect and honor a strong intelligent feminine woman . I see nothing at all "less than" in how you choose to express those desires, in either the Leather world or the "rest of the world". I just see a person who has felt slighted by someone who doesn't get what you have with your partner or your Ms.

jess ...not that it would be a bad thing because i know it will help me be a better man, but female energy i dont have.. i pose a challenge to you... go find a post where you read this female energy i have and let me know cause i would like to be in on it. when i want to "see" one of my online community members i go to there profile page. if i want to further "see" them then i go to their posting history. i have taken the time out to go "see" your page and your history before addressing this post. i also stepped into some threads that i remember we had interaction and you were active. all i will say about how i see you is this...clearly you waffle on issues hiding behind devils advocacy and are confused. i am not slighted jess...i am determined to learn the most i can in the short amount of time i got.

I think ALL relationships have some degree of an exchange of "power" within them. I think there is a clear equality in chosen M/s and D/s relationships ( if they are healthy and negotiated and lived wholly). I do not think a bottom runs the fuck, nor do I think a Top runs the fuck. If there aren't expressly negotiated boundaries ( do's and don'ts) then it is no longer consensual. It is simply one person being domineering over another. One can be a top or bottom without having the other present, however, without the other fulfilling their chosen role, it makes for a pretty boring scene. Either party can stop a scene just as quickly as the other. In that, they are equal and equally necessary to creating that space. This thought can be extrapolated to the power exchange dynamic in the larger relationship, not just scene specific. uh huh

For me personally, it becomes tricky to have discussions relating to Leather/ BDSM dynamics in non Leather/ BDSM spaces as it is neither safe nor respectful of non BDSM folks. For some folks, for example, even the use of the phrase "without permission" regarding what one person in a relationship can do, can be seen as very offensive or abusive. This can very quickly shut them down to the deeper issue being discussed ( which is about gender and roles within a relationship). It's akin to going to a public restaurant and using your slave as an ashtray. It becomes neither safe for you or your slave and definitely non-consensual for anyone else trying to just have dinner. Does that make sense? Most old school ( Old Guard) Leather folk I know actually never make public display of their proclivities unless in Leather space. It is part of a long history of abuse that they have evolved into compartmentalizing different aspects of their lives safely and respectfully.

jess i do not feel anyone has been inappropriate here when discussing this topic.. my Ms and her Peers have and i trust will always treat the public eye with respect. your scenario above will never be my life. if it is somebody else's life then i am sorry for them and hope these words help. what proclivities do you speak of?? i am not sure why you are bringing Old Guard into this, do you?(i have permission from my Ms to ask you to contact me through PM in regards to Old Guard out of respect for protocol and respect for this thread, i will only discuss Old Guard with you nothing else)



I truly hope that this makes sense and I hope you will know I am not attempting to do anything here other than honestly say, I do get where you are coming from regarding how the role you "choose" to live in with your partner. My role in my relationship shifts hats a hell of a lot. We DO compartmentalize the different aspects of who and what we are to one another and quite fluidly most of the time. Our "kink" is private. Our "power exchange" is private and honored. Our public display in the world at large is very respectful of one another in whatever manner is deemed appropriate for the setting. Read: "when in Rome.... etc" I as a Dominant do not place a submissive in a position to have to defend herself( himself) to unlearned people. Meaning, I don't introduce her to non-BDSM/Leather folk as my "girl" or allow for any discomfort or disrespect to be subjected by people who do not get it. There truly is a time and place for everything and there is a reason that folks who have been around a very long time will less and less frequently subject themselves to the admonishment of others who lack deeper understanding of the dynamic.

i am not sure where you are coming from. you say your kink is private yet you have revealed some of it throughout this website. so i am wondering why you contradict yourself? ? i have not once felt i am defending myself to "unlearned" people in here, and feel you are putting people down who don"t live in kink. again my public outings with my Ms and her Peers have never caused me discomfort or to feel disrespected. if someone we know or a stranger acts like an asshat it is on them not my Ms. will she defend me??...yes. again this is where our perspectives differ...i see the retreat of folks who have been around a long time as just being natural...there may be a small percentage of people that "retire" feels this what you say to be true for them. when i read this section of your post i see you bragging about your privacy and putting "unlearned" people (your words not mine) and retired kink folk in a place where they see themselves as victim. not really sure how it relates to the thread.



I guess what it comes down to for me is that if you want to live as an openly submissive boi or slave then you may have to accept that not everyone is going to get it and consider more carefully where you choose to reveal this information. Sometimes, I think that aspect has more to do with being understood than the gender/ role aspect or non-traditional roles within a relationship. It can be very off-putting to people who see S/m or any aspect of it as still stemming from abusive maligned relationships.

well then i would say to you...lucky for you, you are not an openly submissive boi or slave because you would have to settle with that attitude about it. i choose to take a different route in life, because i don't settle. again i will ask...what is going on in here that makes you believe to be offputting to people??

If you are able to hear the genuine respect I have for you and this subject, I would love to talk more about what non-traditional roles in relationships look like and how the evolution of relationships sometimes seems left behind in the b-f world even outside the M/s aspect.

jess have you read this thread???? the title??? cause we have been talking about that.you just don't seem to ever add anything...for me it feels like you just keep coming in here and picking certain details apart that hold no merit.

Thanks, Jess

Thanks for taking the time to read this,
Grant

[Jess]

[QUOTE=weatherboi;109229][QUOTE=Jess;108730]Hi there weatherboi,

When I made the statement regarding "where" to place this thread, it was because at that point in this thread it was very obviously being geared toward a "power exchange" relationship and every response made reflected the M/s D/s variance in those relationships. It also seemed very "vanilla" unfriendly in that a couple statements were made referring to "vanilla" folks and felt kinda "othering". The use of the terms "led", "bottom" are specific terms stemming from the Leather/ BDSM world, hence why it feels geared toward that.

this is where our individual perspectives lead us to difference, so here we our in genders, labels and identities. i also know my intent was for people from all places on the spectrum to be involved,because that is the only way to gain awareness, knowledge, and progression.

Any relationship ( in my opinion) that reads as "led" as opposed to equal is one of some degree of dominance and submission. It can be called M/s, Daddy/girl, Mommy/boy, monkey/ banana. The difference is in the varying degrees of submission and accepted dominance. My hope was to perhaps open this discussion up to an audience who may share the interest in the gender dismissive specific aspect of relationships and not make it only comfortable to Leather and BDSM folks. I hope that makes sense. It was never intended to disregard it, as I DO believe it a very timely and important discussion for some of us to be having.

this is the thing jess...when i thought about opening this thread i realized the balance may tip the scale but it was important for me to include all. just because you hadn't read it yet doesn't make it so. if only one couple showed up in here that sees themselves not into any kind of leather/bdsm/kink dynamic then i am happy happy they are here and can't wait for them to share.

I am sorry to have used those old "mysogynistic" phrases to have illustrated the point I think we were both trying to make. THOSE are the types of responses it sounds like you have been receiving that really suck. I simply used them to help you understand that I do get what you are saying.

having heard these before when describing my relationship by people who were not very wise or nice. < this is what i said.

let me be more clear. i have heard these statements before in the past when describing my first femme led relationship, by my father and his friends. i just didnt feel the need to get that detailed in my post because i did not want to seem like i was disrespecting my father or his friends to my Ms or her Peers. She and They read this also. my point is your example sounded very ooogy to me in a mysandric kind of way. you do id as butch correct? i took the time to visit your side bar and saw "other" as preferred pronoun how would you feel if i started to assume your gender for you?

The reason I thought it about self acceptance is in the viewing of our lives by others, we may never ever find a time or place where folks ( in general) do just "get it", moreover, honor and respect us. I find it highly unlikely that anyone can " change this style of thinking", when others are so dead set in how they view themselves in the order of things. They only see "you" as some skewed reflection of how they see their own "role" in life.

again this is where our individual perspectives differ. i accept myself. when a person doesn't respect my dynamic, or my gender i think...sheesh that person has alot of work to do. its on them not me. i feel everybody should respect my choices and my space. they may not like it but they can respect it. honor for me is an entirely different ballgame. honor is earned. i don't need people to "get it" to respect my choices and my space. limit.

Here is what I see, if I may. I see you as a strong, intelligent, masculine female/trans energy who "lives" to serve, respect and honor a strong intelligent feminine woman . I see nothing at all "less than" in how you choose to express those desires, in either the Leather world or the "rest of the world". I just see a person who has felt slighted by someone who doesn't get what you have with your partner or your Ms.

jess ...not that it would be a bad thing because i know it will help me be a better man, but female energy i dont have.. i pose a challenge to you... go find a post where you read this female energy i have and let me know cause i would like to be in on it. when i want to "see" one of my online community members i go to there profile page. if i want to further "see" them then i go to their posting history. i have taken the time out to go "see" your page and your history before addressing this post. i also stepped into some threads that i remember we had interaction and you were active. all i will say about how i see you is this...clearly you waffle on issues hiding behind devils advocacy and are confused. i am not slighted jess...i am determined to learn the most i can in the short amount of time i got.

I think ALL relationships have some degree of an exchange of "power" within them. I think there is a clear equality in chosen M/s and D/s relationships ( if they are healthy and negotiated and lived wholly). I do not think a bottom runs the fuck, nor do I think a Top runs the fuck. If there aren't expressly negotiated boundaries ( do's and don'ts) then it is no longer consensual. It is simply one person being domineering over another. One can be a top or bottom without having the other present, however, without the other fulfilling their chosen role, it makes for a pretty boring scene. Either party can stop a scene just as quickly as the other. In that, they are equal and equally necessary to creating that space. This thought can be extrapolated to the power exchange dynamic in the larger relationship, not just scene specific. uh huh

For me personally, it becomes tricky to have discussions relating to Leather/ BDSM dynamics in non Leather/ BDSM spaces as it is neither safe nor respectful of non BDSM folks. For some folks, for example, even the use of the phrase "without permission" regarding what one person in a relationship can do, can be seen as very offensive or abusive. This can very quickly shut them down to the deeper issue being discussed ( which is about gender and roles within a relationship). It's akin to going to a public restaurant and using your slave as an ashtray. It becomes neither safe for you or your slave and definitely non-consensual for anyone else trying to just have dinner. Does that make sense? Most old school ( Old Guard) Leather folk I know actually never make public display of their proclivities unless in Leather space. It is part of a long history of abuse that they have evolved into compartmentalizing different aspects of their lives safely and respectfully.

jess i do not feel anyone has been inappropriate here when discussing this topic.. my Ms and her Peers have and i trust will always treat the public eye with respect. your scenario above will never be my life. if it is somebody else's life then i am sorry for them and hope these words help. what proclivities do you speak of?? i am not sure why you are bringing Old Guard into this, do you?(i have permission from my Ms to ask you to contact me through PM in regards to Old Guard out of respect for protocol and respect for this thread, i will only discuss Old Guard with you nothing else)



I truly hope that this makes sense and I hope you will know I am not attempting to do anything here other than honestly say, I do get where you are coming from regarding how the role you "choose" to live in with your partner. My role in my relationship shifts hats a hell of a lot. We DO compartmentalize the different aspects of who and what we are to one another and quite fluidly most of the time. Our "kink" is private. Our "power exchange" is private and honored. Our public display in the world at large is very respectful of one another in whatever manner is deemed appropriate for the setting. Read: "when in Rome.... etc" I as a Dominant do not place a submissive in a position to have to defend herself( himself) to unlearned people. Meaning, I don't introduce her to non-BDSM/Leather folk as my "girl" or allow for any discomfort or disrespect to be subjected by people who do not get it. There truly is a time and place for everything and there is a reason that folks who have been around a very long time will less and less frequently subject themselves to the admonishment of others who lack deeper understanding of the dynamic.

i am not sure where you are coming from. you say your kink is private yet you have revealed some of it throughout this website. so i am wondering why you contradict yourself? ? i have not once felt i am defending myself to "unlearned" people in here, and feel you are putting people down who don"t live in kink. again my public outings with my Ms and her Peers have never caused me discomfort or to feel disrespected. if someone we know or a stranger acts like an asshat it is on them not my Ms. will she defend me??...yes. again this is where our perspectives differ...i see the retreat of folks who have been around a long time as just being natural...there may be a small percentage of people that "retire" feels this what you say to be true for them. when i read this section of your post i see you bragging about your privacy and putting "unlearned" people (your words not mine) and retired kink folk in a place where they see themselves as victim. not really sure how it relates to the thread.



I guess what it comes down to for me is that if you want to live as an openly submissive boi or slave then you may have to accept that not everyone is going to get it and consider more carefully where you choose to reveal this information. Sometimes, I think that aspect has more to do with being understood than the gender/ role aspect or non-traditional roles within a relationship. It can be very off-putting to people who see S/m or any aspect of it as still stemming from abusive maligned relationships.

well then i would say to you...lucky for you, you are not an openly submissive boi or slave because you would have to settle with that attitude about it. i choose to take a different route in life, because i don't settle. again i will ask...what is going on in here that makes you believe to be offputting to people??

If you are able to hear the genuine respect I have for you and this subject, I would love to talk more about what non-traditional roles in relationships look like and how the evolution of relationships sometimes seems left behind in the b-f world even outside the M/s aspect.

jess have you read this thread???? the title??? cause we have been talking about that.you just don't seem to ever add anything...for me it feels like you just keep coming in here and picking certain details apart that hold no merit.

Thanks, Jess


Ya know what grant, i tried to have a conversation with you. It is obviously not going to work. Have a nice day, hope ya figure it out.

[Jess]

Thank you Little Duck for your very considerate rep comment.

[SuperFemme]

WeatherBoi: I don't want you to walk away from this thread feeling like you have to hide who you are. That bugs me, and it feels like victim blaming to me.

I am proud of you for being your authentic self. That is the most we can hope for from any individual. Authenticity.

It does not matter if the demoralizing comes from folks who live a leather lifestyle or not. At the end of the day what is demoralizing is just that.

To *me* the dismissive way you are sometimes treated is deeply rooted in sexism and misogyny. People as a whole are socialized to believe that anything on the male spectrum equals powerful, strong, dominant, assertive and well, manly. Female equals demur, submissive, weak and a supporting role. Turning that learned thinking upside down on it's head is wildly subversive (and quite sexy to me).

I've seen that which you speak of in action. I am happy that you've not only started a thread about it, but that you've stuck it out thus far. Not because I don't think you can stick it out, but because it must get tiresome.

How do you think your community can best support you and be inclusive? What can I do? And what can anyone do on a person by person basis?

[christie]

I think that perhaps the obvious disconnect is that your inability/unwillingness to hear what Jess is trying to say to you is more of a personality conflict more than anything.

That being said, I think that this thread is more about power exchange from the very title: Femme LED and trans/butch bottom. Leading implies power and bottom is an obvious not in power BDSM term. I don’t think that you were implying sexual preferences and you went on to clarify that wasn’t the case. To use one of my favorite phrases, “Hell, even Ronnie Milsap could see that.”

Further, the thread was pointed in a power exchange direction in the very usage of words and the space/experience from which folks have responded.

If your intent was to bring awareness to feeling not supported or appreciated for your contribution and your relationship to others outside the BDSM world, I am hopeful you accomplish that. It is a dynamic that we don’t often see and its probably not what we think of when we hear/read “butch/femme”.

In reference to the issues of private vs. public and our kink, I think the intent was very clear. Since there seems to be a question, lets see if I can break it down more simply.

There are things about BDSM that are not for the public eye. If it were true that it was for public space, we would see people ottomans at fine dining restaurants and leashed folks at WalMart and Trader Joe’s. We might see a parent taking a child to school dressed in fetish wear and a ball gag while crawling across the pavement ushered by the crossing guard who happens to be in sissymaid attire.

As Jen mentioned in her post, there are some things you just don’t parade around the streets. Here and in other online communities that are kink friendly, we feel its safe to express, embrace and connect with like-minded folk and allies. While yes, the internet is a public place, there are BDSM forums where it is appropriate, neither Jess nor I feel that the nonBDSM forums are a place to fly that freak flag and that its akin to busting up in the local diner in a corset and thigh boots, while eversohot, might not be appreciated, supported or accepted or even welcome. To us, its about being as respectful of the “vanilla space” as much as we want our kink space respected.

I think perhaps you are making a concerted effort to not get what Jess is trying to say to you in that hy appreciates and supports both your role in your relationship AND that hy doesn’t see you as “less than”.

Perhaps one of the reasons that hy appreciates this is that hy is partnered with a strong woman who leads most anything she wants to lead, given that the first and foremost dynamic of our relationships is as partners – equals. I have always said it takes a helluva butch, strong and confident in self to NOT be intimidated by celebrating and encouraging hys/her/hyr partner/spouse/lover (pick a word) to be that strong, vibrant being she just inherently is.

One of Jess’s closest friends is a Femme Master. Her slave is her biomale hubby. They are former M/s title holders and I can assure you that neither of us see her slave as “less than” a man, or less than anything the hell else. He is probably one of the most incredibly intelligent, strong individuals I have ever encountered and is a completely, inherently devoted slave I have ever been privileged to know. Their relationship is a thing of beauty to bear witness to and I can’t possibly imagine being anything less than supportive of anyone in however they find their bliss.

In closing, I think that we don’t really need to continue to worry about the world in general “othering” us and making us feel less than because we seem to do a damn fine job in doing that to one another. We manage to pick one another apart and expend a great deal of energy rather than finding a common ground and supporting one another, in whatever relationship dynamic we choose

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

WeatherBoi: I don't want you to walk away from this thread feeling like you have to hide who you are. That bugs me, and it feels like victim blaming to me.
i can't/won't walk away Ms #2...lol...i had to go look up victim blaming...i don't feel the this is happening...i think in threads like this it is hard to keep the topic on point...so i push forward learning what i can.

I am proud of you for being your authentic self. That is the most we can hope for from any individual. Authenticity.
this makes me wanna cry. thank You...i appreciate your perspective on this topic and it is valuable to me.

It does not matter if the demoralizing comes from folks who live a leather lifestyle or not. At the end of the day what is demoralizing is just that.

To *me* the dismissive way you are sometimes treated is deeply rooted in sexism and misogyny. People as a whole are socialized to believe that anything on the male spectrum equals powerful, strong, dominant, assertive and well, manly. Female equals demur, submissive, weak and a supporting role. Turning that learned thinking upside down on it's head is wildly subversive (and quite sexy to me).

in therapy when addressing my trans and misogyny/sexism it revolves around experiences i had with a very misogynistic father and how that comes into play with how i hear women...and when discussing my Femme led relationship we discuss mysandry/ misogyny and sexism...it is hard for me to openly talk about my own misogyny...not so much about the misogyny/mysandry i endure...my therapist pointed this out to me and the only conclusion i could come to for myself was lack of not wanting to be accountable for my stuff...

I've seen that which you speak of in action. I am happy that you've not only started a thread about it, but that you've stuck it out thus far. Not because I don't think you can stick it out, but because it must get tiresome.

How do you think your community can best support you and be inclusive? What can I do? And what can anyone do on a person by person basis?

my community has supported me by giving a space for support to a type of relationship that also needs examination. my intention was to have this space be for anybody and everybody.

Ms#2 look at all You do already...lobster anyone??

i can't really say what people can do per say but i would like to ask people keep an open mind when posting in here.

thank you thank you

[Jess]

[QUOTE=Bit;108693]Hi, Jess. I can't speak to most of your post, but I can tell you that I appreciate this thread being out in the wider forums, so to speak, since I don't read the BDSM forums and would have missed out on it.

Bit, I agree. I think it is a great conversation and have received quite a few notes from other folks not into Leather/ BDSM who had felt they didn't really have a place to talk about it ( gender and relationship roles) and thought this was more for BDSM folks.

Thanks for what you shared. It makes perfect sense to me!