Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch/Femme Bottoms

[Jess]

While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

I think that in the gender/ id spectrum aspect of this subject many folks in the b-f community are a tad rigid in what their minds eye creates relating to how butches and femmes "should" interact with one another. This goes all the way to their entire vision of what butch and femme mean to them. Adjective or noun? It goes to some very core issues for some folks and with terminology constantly evolving as we ( as a part of the greater LGBT community) are becoming more self aware and more socially conscious, we either buck the changes or roll with them and hopefully grow a little on that journey.

I don't particularly see the feminine partner in a relationship "leading" as something exclusive to BDSM relationships. We ( probably) ALL have people we know, where the "woman" in the relationship "pulls the strings", as it were. The old jokes of the "taming of the shrew" or poor uncle Jake... his wife keeps him on a short leash.

Frankly, in most relationships however the dynamic of decision making, nurturing, income earning etc., is based on who does what best and whatever works for each individual couple is just what works best. I don't see a man/ male id / masculine woman ( either of them) as "less than" for choosing to express the more a) nurturing b ) domestic c) gentle or d) ( insert any word that is usually a descriptive for the traditional "home maker" role) aspects of themselves. I think this is where we can often get really twisted in how we view our peers. Too often, it can really screw with how we view ourselves as well.

In my experience in the Leather/ BDSM communities, there was far more acceptance and APPRECIATION of the roles chosen by individuals and their dynamics as a "couple" or as part of a "family". That small portion of the greater community seems to have for the most part, worked through most of the possibilities of what relationships "can be" and do not in general "judge" another's kink ( or turn-on, or whatever floats their boat). They seem to get it, when it comes down to "whatever makes you guys happy". Of course, with that said... YES, there are folks even in that very small but diverse community who still need to one up someone else or make judgements about others to make themselves feel better. What I have come to realize about all of that, is that it really comes down to individuals and not the whole community.

Personally, when I see an obvious "power exchange" that has been "chosen" , I see far more than the gender preference. It makes no difference to me where the individuals fall on the spectrum of gender portrayal. Actually one of the most interesting aspects of it all for me, is "where" individuals find their power core and how it chooses to be expressed. Ex: I have a friend who is a dominant gay man who prefers to Top from a Dominant Female space and prefers to dominate/ top masculine id'ed female/boi bottoms. His love life, however, is more of a "vanilla" gay man. He also maintains a Daddy/ girl relationship with a straight woman ( who happens to be a Femme Top) that is strictly platonic. So, where we find our, or express our "power exchange", can be and often is totally removed from where we "live", so to speak.

I dropped the Syr from my nickname here as I wanted to be able to discuss a wider range of subjects without being judged or pigeonholed as being "one of those Leather folks". I also dropped it because I am no longer as active as was in the Leather community. I no longer needed to "define" myself as primarily residing in that realm. While the exchange of power energy is still a huge turn-on , it does not limit or shape my interactions in the rest of my world.

I see this issue as more of one of self acceptance and finding your "bliss" as it goes. If you are happy, then have at it!!! Devil be damned if others feel a need to judge your path to happiness and wholeness.

[Apocalipstic]

I had to take a step back in appearing in Public with Mr. Cynthia as my submissive. When she is in submissive space in public, it is on a leash and no one is allowed to talk to her except for Me unless I give permission and I seldom do. (this only happens in private spaces, not at the grocery store or restaurants, I feel everyone should consent to seeing that stuff, not just My submissive)

Yes, I agree with Isadora, at first people propositioned her and a few other Femme and Butch friends acted like she should submit to them, hold their chairs, wait on them. They teased her and made little comments. I shut that down immediately, and I just will not place her in the position ever again. She can handle it but it infuriates me.

When we go to parties, we go as a non BDSM couple, unless it is Slut Night or a PLANNED IN ADVANCE BDSM party with pre-arranged rules. Not a party where people drink too much and suddenly people are getting beat next to the birthday cake.

I know Cynthia can handle people acting like idiots, but for some reason it lights my temper up faster than just about anything when people think they can mess with her. Brain melting FURY happens, so I try to keep public appearances at a minimum and avoid parties where non pre-planned BDSM is likely to happen.

[weatherboi]

hi apocalipstic

thank You very much for sharing your experiences, feelings and solutions about You and Mr. Cynthia's personal dynamic. my Ms is very specific about public outings and planned events as well. it makes time out away from the home very relaxing and easy for us so i can solely concentrate on my service. like You she does not want to set us up for failure. thanks and please accept my apologies for not responding to this sooner.

Grant

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I had to take a step back in appearing in Public with Mr. Cynthia as my submissive. When she is in submissive space in public, it is on a leash and no one is allowed to talk to her except for Me unless I give permission and I seldom do. (this only happens in private spaces, not at the grocery store or restaurants, I feel everyone should consent to seeing that stuff, not just My submissive)

Yes, I agree with Isadora, at first people propositioned her and a few other Femme and Butch friends acted like she should submit to them, hold their chairs, wait on them. They teased her and made little comments. I shut that down immediately, and I just will not place her in the position ever again. She can handle it but it infuriates me.

When we go to parties, we go as a non BDSM couple, unless it is Slut Night or a PLANNED IN ADVANCE BDSM party with pre-arranged rules. Not a party where people drink too much and suddenly people are getting beat next to the birthday cake.

I know Cynthia can handle people acting like idiots, but for some reason it lights my temper up faster than just about anything when people think they can mess with her. Brain melting FURY happens, so I try to keep public appearances at a minimum and avoid parties where non pre-planned BDSM is likely to happen.

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Hi everybody!!

I am opening this thread to discuss a topic that keeps getting brought up in some form or fashion throughout various threads.

I am a trans/submissive/bottom/guy, that is in his second Femme led relationship. My first started over 20 years ago. I left that relationship without any instincts. I moved forward topping every aspect of my life and destroyed my own trustful nature. I got therapy and here I am.

The great thing about our community is we have all participated in evolving gender identity in our own way. This is why the spectrum is so wide.

I keep running into those "less than" conversations about energy exchange and how there seems to be a stigma with this type of intimate bond. My experience so far has been mostly from a corner watching others. I have been able to dodge the "belittle me bullet" from outsiders but it is just a matter of time before somebody addresses me as "less than" because of my relationship style. Sometimes I think it all revolves around misogyny and maybe even some mysandry. Any thoughts on this particular subject?? Any other subjects/experiences that will add value would be greatly appreciated!

hi jess

Originally Posted by Jess

While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

my reason for not originating this thread in a BDSM space is because this thread is not just about the kink and power exchange. it is about Femme led relationships and trans/butch bottoms. not all Femme led relationships are specific to BDSM. it is about discussing the day to day encounters we have in our spaces, living in relationships that are stigmatized in a gender specific way. i have left some experiences in posts. none of them were soley about the power exchange but mostly about gender questioning encounters.

I think that in the gender/ id spectrum aspect of this subject many folks in the b-f community are a tad rigid in what their minds eye creates relating to how butches and femmes "should" interact with one another. This goes all the way to their entire vision of what butch and femme mean to them. Adjective or noun? It goes to some very core issues for some folks and with terminology constantly evolving as we ( as a part of the greater LGBT community) are becoming more self aware and more socially conscious, we either buck the changes or roll with them and hopefully grow a little on that journey.

i can comfortably say from my heart as i constantly evolve that it is about more than this for me. being self aware will not work unles i live with my minds eye open.

I don't particularly see the feminine partner in a relationship "leading" as something exclusive to BDSM relationships. We ( probably) ALL have people we know, where the "woman" in the relationship "pulls the strings", as it were. The old jokes of the "taming of the shrew" or poor uncle Jake... his wife keeps him on a short leash.

well and that is exactly why it does not need to be in a BDSM forum.i always wonder why we have to default to those old misogynistic phrases in this kind of space?? having heard these before when describing my relationship by people who were not very wise or nice. but it clearly shows again why i decided to start this topic in the gender,labels,identities forum. this is why i need to talk about it and try to find a way to change this style of thinking.



Frankly, in most relationships however the dynamic of decision making, nurturing, income earning etc., is based on who does what best and whatever works for each individual couple is just what works best. I don't see a man/ male id / masculine woman ( either of them) as "less than" for choosing to express the more a) nurturing b ) domestic c) gentle or d) ( insert any word that is usually a descriptive for the traditional "home maker" role) aspects of themselves. I think this is where we can often get really twisted in how we view our peers. Too often, it can really screw with how we view ourselves as well.



In my experience in the Leather/ BDSM communities, there was far more acceptance and APPRECIATION of the roles chosen by individuals and their dynamics as a "couple" or as part of a "family". That small portion of the greater community seems to have for the most part, worked through most of the possibilities of what relationships "can be" and do not in general "judge" another's kink ( or turn-on, or whatever floats their boat). They seem to get it, when it comes down to "whatever makes you guys happy". Of course, with that said... YES, there are folks even in that very small but diverse community who still need to one up someone else or make judgements about others to make themselves feel better. What I have come to realize about all of that, is that it really comes down to individuals and not the whole community.

my experiences so far from my leather family and community has been acceptance and appreciation. i agree

Personally, when I see an obvious "power exchange" that has been "chosen" , I see far more than the gender preference. It makes no difference to me where the individuals fall on the spectrum of gender portrayal. Actually one of the most interesting aspects of it all for me, is "where" individuals find their power core and how it chooses to be expressed. Ex: I have a friend who is a dominant gay man who prefers to Top from a Dominant Female space and prefers to dominate/ top masculine id'ed female/boi bottoms. His love life, however, is more of a "vanilla" gay man. He also maintains a Daddy/ girl relationship with a straight woman ( who happens to be a Femme Top) that is strictly platonic. So, where we find our, or express our "power exchange", can be and often is totally removed from where we "live", so to speak.

i understand this and see it from the outside. my life is Femme led 24/7 and i am a trans guy boy bottom 24/7 so i am never removed. it is not a choice but something that just is.

I dropped the Syr from my nickname here as I wanted to be able to discuss a wider range of subjects without being judged or pigeonholed as being "one of those Leather folks". I also dropped it because I am no longer as active as was in the Leather community. I no longer needed to "define" myself as primarily residing in that realm. While the exchange of power energy is still a huge turn-on , it does not limit or shape my interactions in the rest of my world.

i can not drop anything from my name because that is not for me to do without permission, i am owned. my Femme led relationship, my D/s M/s relationship only aids in widening my boundaries and sharpening my interactions with those around me from day to day. if i am ever pigeon holed as one of those "leather folk" then that would be my honor.

I see this issue as more of one of self acceptance and finding your "bliss" as it goes. If you are happy, then have at it!!! Devil be damned if others feel a need to judge your path to happiness and wholeness.

what issue do you see is about self acceptance jess?? i need clarity please??

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Jess

While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

I think that in the gender/ id spectrum aspect of this subject many folks in the b-f community are a tad rigid in what their minds eye creates relating to how butches and femmes "should" interact with one another. This goes all the way to their entire vision of what butch and femme mean to them. Adjective or noun? It goes to some very core issues for some folks and with terminology constantly evolving as we ( as a part of the greater LGBT community) are becoming more self aware and more socially conscious, we either buck the changes or roll with them and hopefully grow a little on that journey.

I don't particularly see the feminine partner in a relationship "leading" as something exclusive to BDSM relationships. We ( probably) ALL have people we know, where the "woman" in the relationship "pulls the strings", as it were. The old jokes of the "taming of the shrew" or poor uncle Jake... his wife keeps him on a short leash.

Frankly, in most relationships however the dynamic of decision making, nurturing, income earning etc., is based on who does what best and whatever works for each individual couple is just what works best. I don't see a man/ male id / masculine woman ( either of them) as "less than" for choosing to express the more a) nurturing b ) domestic c) gentle or d) ( insert any word that is usually a descriptive for the traditional "home maker" role) aspects of themselves. I think this is where we can often get really twisted in how we view our peers. Too often, it can really screw with how we view ourselves as well.

In my experience in the Leather/ BDSM communities, there was far more acceptance and APPRECIATION of the roles chosen by individuals and their dynamics as a "couple" or as part of a "family". That small portion of the greater community seems to have for the most part, worked through most of the possibilities of what relationships "can be" and do not in general "judge" another's kink ( or turn-on, or whatever floats their boat). They seem to get it, when it comes down to "whatever makes you guys happy". Of course, with that said... YES, there are folks even in that very small but diverse community who still need to one up someone else or make judgements about others to make themselves feel better. What I have come to realize about all of that, is that it really comes down to individuals and not the whole community.

Personally, when I see an obvious "power exchange" that has been "chosen" , I see far more than the gender preference. It makes no difference to me where the individuals fall on the spectrum of gender portrayal. Actually one of the most interesting aspects of it all for me, is "where" individuals find their power core and how it chooses to be expressed. Ex: I have a friend who is a dominant gay man who prefers to Top from a Dominant Female space and prefers to dominate/ top masculine id'ed female/boi bottoms. His love life, however, is more of a "vanilla" gay man. He also maintains a Daddy/ girl relationship with a straight woman ( who happens to be a Femme Top) that is strictly platonic. So, where we find our, or express our "power exchange", can be and often is totally removed from where we "live", so to speak.

I dropped the Syr from my nickname here as I wanted to be able to discuss a wider range of subjects without being judged or pigeonholed as being "one of those Leather folks". I also dropped it because I am no longer as active as was in the Leather community. I no longer needed to "define" myself as primarily residing in that realm. While the exchange of power energy is still a huge turn-on , it does not limit or shape my interactions in the rest of my world.

I see this issue as more of one of self acceptance and finding your "bliss" as it goes. If you are happy, then have at it!!! Devil be damned if others feel a need to judge your path to happiness and wholeness.

I read this again and took some time really thinking about it. As you know the "scene" was a very large part of my life some years ago. Traditional relationships were not enough for me and I stepped into a reality I created based on female domination which was a combination of my sexual and spiritual needs. For whatever reason I needed the healing of power exchange and that shaped me to be the woman I am today.

I've stepped into several dynamics and lived many lives just in this lifetime. Although I sexually open-minded and experienced in all level of physical and mental types of play- bdsm, role-play, sm, I honestly never really placed myself totally into the bdsm lifestyle, per se. They were elements of it I found exciting but it was the exchange of power, the mental dynamics of "feminine power exchange" that kept me interested. Even when I started dating in the BF community I found myself drawn to those who accepted my natural dominance and was ok with me maintaining general control over our day to day. I am a strong woman who wakes up calculating my every move and use to making decisions and taking most of responsibility. Normally I am also the one that earns the most income and feel more comfortable making most of the decisions for our home. The only time I don't need to be in control if the bedroom. This is not to say I can't swing into almost any direction. I can, but now I am finding that I don't need the kinky games as much as I did when I was younger. It's more about the day to day dynamic and when it comes to intimacy I want it to be soft, bonding and comfortable for both of us. If my partner needs something I am happy to give it to them no matter what it is but my needs are fairly simple when it comes to having an orgasm.

But you're right... we all travel across that polarity. My base energy may be one way but I swing in different directions based on my needs at the moment. Perhaps this is what makes relationships so difficult? The expectation and counting on someone to always be the same rather then being able to ride and shift with them? Perhaps there is a special chemistry that allows us to accept each other no matter what the moment unfolds.

I have always been and will always be a natural alpha femme. Although you can attempt to keep me somewhat bridled it would be a shame to do this. My passions and creativity lie in my natural dominance. If you learn to feed it, seduce it you unleash the most amazing woman. This I have learn and shall not forget.

There is a huge misconception that a masculine butch can not be with an alpha femme. The truth is that the strongest people I know prefer allowing someone else to be in control. Not because they can't step up to it but prefer not to. They don't really give a shit what people think and they know who they are. A warrior fights for his Queen and subjugates himself because he adores her not because he is weak or emasculated.

Reading your post made me think a lot about the past and this has all been very reflective. There were quite a few gay men I had femdom interaction with. It was funny walking into a gay leather bar and seeing a select few groveling around me as if I was royalty. They needed this exchange as much as I did. We all need to really tune into our frequencies rather then allowing our heads to force round pegs into square holes.

[Sachita]

Today I was talking to an ex. This is a very masculine butch alpha type person. We talk every few months and have kept a great friendship going. This person is not submission, by no means but....

After posting in this thread I asked hym today if hy felt I was too dominant or too aggressive and if that was ever a power struggle for hym. We ended things mainly because hy had serious control issues and this constantly became an issue. Hy wanted to always be with me, plan what we did, etc etc and I needed a lot of space. I just don't require being around another human all the time. Hy wanted that perfect little world with wife, kids and white picket fence. That's just not me. but....

hy said that although I was very strong I was the first woman to really seduce hym as a femme. That hy always felt strong and masculine. I was sexually aggressive to a point. I knew what I wanted and how I wanted it. I called it "daddy duty". So even on my back I was in control. Hy said that looking back it was all extremely hot and that today it has shaped hys thinking and hy looks for strong feminine women. Still hy won't let go of the control issue and for us it's like oil and water. I could deal with an alpha type person as long as they weren't that way towards me. I think this is why I'm more drawn to the daddy types because I enjoy a strong partner but I'm like the spoiled little brat girl that always gets her way. I prefer to lead as well.

[Toughy]

by Angelika
Ah yes, dressed in pantyhose, a dark suit where the skirt stops just above the knees, pencil kind, the blouse almost sheer, hinting, but not showing; stilettos that make you afraid you will step on your boobage at age 60 if you do not wear a bra now; hair piled up, loosely cascading, inviting yet with a 'hands off' sign invisibly attached; small half mooned glasses perched at the end of the nose, looking over them at some unsuspecting Butch ... and not saying a word. Perhaps leaning against the doorway of a car repair shop, or standing casually in a boardroom setting, or waking up to sunlight streaming through my window and the smell of coffee assaulting my nostrils ... waiting, and knowing.

Ah yes...............damn woman

[Soft*Silver]

I am in a femdom relationship with someone who is slowly transition MtF. It took me a long time to get over myself and deal with the boundaries I established for myself as a lesbian femme in order for me to accept this lovely relationship. Because he (and yes he still uses the H word) was born male and I am lesbian, people have been quite snotty regarding us. (not here) I have to argue my right to call myself a lesbian. These people mainly piss me off because they want our relationship to be pigeon holed under homophobic and transphobic conditions.

I found so much strength beating down my self inflicted barriers and claiming my right to be who I am. I LOVE packing. I LOVE B&D and have even started getting much more experienced in S&M as well. Physically I was waylaid for a time, but its amazing how creative one can get when one is hungry for power exchanges and all that goes with it.

my gurl has the additional stigma of being caught betwixt and between and having his identity and role questioned. He knows he is betwixt and between and thus, is his reason for keeping the H pronoun. I have never met a more honest and real person in my life.

I have had people call me closeted for being in this relationship. Really? How is this any different than all the other twists and turns of any other person in the LGBT family? I am a lesbian, involved with someone who is transitioning to becoming who he is, a female bodied person. Until then, we accept his male body that serves his femaleness. How is that hard to understand? If you can turn on a light switch, you can turn on your mind to accept this too. Calling me closeted was foundationally transphobic. And I wont accept it...

I have tried to be a submissive femme because thats what I thought would make me happy. It didnt. Once I became real and honest, I came out of my own closet and accepted the FemDom in me. I have never been happier...

I am a FemDom. I am no longer struggling with my own power struggles now that I have accepted who I am and have begun living in this life.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by softness

I am in a femdom relationship with someone who is slowly transition MtF. It took me a long time to get over myself and deal with the boundaries I established for myself as a lesbian femme in order for me to accept this lovely relationship. Because he (and yes he still uses the H word) was born male and I am lesbian, people have been quite snotty regarding us. (not here) I have to argue my right to call myself a lesbian. These people mainly piss me off because they want our relationship to be pigeon holed under homophobic and transphobic conditions.

I found so much strength beating down my self inflicted barriers and claiming my right to be who I am. I LOVE packing. I LOVE B&D and have even started getting much more experienced in S&M as well. Physically I was waylaid for a time, but its amazing how creative one can get when one is hungry for power exchanges and all that goes with it.

my gurl has the additional stigma of being caught betwixt and between and having his identity and role questioned. He knows he is betwixt and between and thus, is his reason for keeping the H pronoun. I have never met a more honest and real person in my life.

I have had people call me closeted for being in this relationship. Really? How is this any different than all the other twists and turns of any other person in the LGBT family? I am a lesbian, involved with someone who is transitioning to becoming who he is, a female bodied person. Until then, we accept his male body that serves his femaleness. How is that hard to understand? If you can turn on a light switch, you can turn on your mind to accept this too. Calling me closeted was foundationally transphobic. And I wont accept it...

I have tried to be a submissive femme because thats what I thought would make me happy. It didnt. Once I became real and honest, I came out of my own closet and accepted the FemDom in me. I have never been happier...

I am a FemDom. I am no longer struggling with my own power struggles now that I have accepted who I am and have begun living in this life.

fuck all the labels. We all move through many spaces to find ourself and enjoy this human experience. Do whatever floats your boat even if its in that moment.

Congrats! its an awesome journey and one you deserve.

[Sachita]

Additionally Softness I'd like to say....(was in a hurry before but feel this is important)

I happen to not only know quite a bit about female domination but MTF within all of its aspects- crossdressing, sissy, TS, full transitions. Men turn to dominant women because they feel trapped by their desires or confused about how they feel. They turn to a dominant mistress to guide them, relinquishing control in order to learn to love the feminine way. Of course many men don't see quite like that but its true. Sex is a very high frequency/vibration. Many men confuse love and sex because of it. In fact many sexual fetishes are much deeper issues or needs that are expressed sexually- masturbation and fantasy, because they just can't figure out the connection between spiritual and sexual. I'm not saying men are stupid, by no means, just that they suffer from the same thing we all do- a society that has taught us shame and taboos. The divine feminine is an essence present in everything we do. Much like yin and yang, we need this to find balance. You've heard the saying "feminine side"? This is a much deeper matter then most realize, at least in my opinion.

It's a wonderful thing to teach love and thats exactly what a well established mistress really does. She shapes and molds his desires to help him be the best human he can be and THEN he is that for her. She is artful at seduction and calculates her strategy even if it means reflecting his fears and constructive forms of manipulation. The privilege of power requires great responsibly and although many can attempt it only a select few ever really become masterful.

IMO a great mistress/goddess has a spiritual foundation. She must travel through so many spaces- light and dark, so ego must be in check and intentions for the good of all. Otherwise you have unbridled power that can harm everything in its path.

I've been queer all my life. I've had many males slaves and although I don't enjoy fucking them or having partner relationships with them I still loved and nurtured them. I'm just drawn to a feminine essence deep within and then sexually attracted to a masculine form. I have only been able to find this in butch women and transgendered 3rd sex humans. In fact many moons ago I met a boy who was born with a cock but every fiber of his being was feminine. He was submissive and one of the most amazing humans Ive ever met. This past little fling of mine was with a submissive ftm who has the tools to become everything he ever wanted but is trapped in depression. He constantly struggles with who he wants to be rather then who he really is. Unfortunately this is pretty common. As a Domina they are drawn to us because they need "permission" and to void the responsibility even if its really what they desire. Does that make sense?

I keep stepping in and out of the femdom world mainly because it just doesn;t encompass everything I need. BDSM and sexual alternatives is not my main motivation. This is not to say that I can't get kinky- I'm just seeking more of a dynamic then a "thing". The femdom/female led/feminine authority dynamic just works for me and somehow I need to just find the right balance. It's very hard to find the right submissive butch who isn't struggling with hys identity and is not only ok with a woman being in control but needs it just as much as I do.

But if it is any constellation you might feel relieved to know that the BDSM community doesn't get caught up in gender. It's easy to find community and acceptance there.

"Wise men still seek Her!"