The Female Male ID "Wars"... or Great Divide

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants?
Because we ARE a mixed group of participants and that makes us awesome.

Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them?
Those sites exist. That SPACE, however, ALSO exists on this site and that also makes us awesome.

Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there?
This website IS a home that honors those identities and yours. Because so many Transpeople have roots in Butch/Femme culture, they have a home here. Not a tolerated home, a home. No qualifier. Full stop.


Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community.
And you have that here if you choose to embrace it. There are a LOT of people who identify as "Lesbian" on this site...that includes a few Transpeople who identify as a Lesbian. Are you shocked? Or did you think that only women born women identify as Lesbians?
When you say you fought to be a Lesbian, did you mean that you fought for women-only space? When you said that you wanted a Lesbian community, did you mean a "women only" community?

What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own?
They have and they do. Right here. That doesnt make us a "Trans" website or a "Male" website, it means we are an inclusive website and that makes us awesome.


Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home?
I think I read you saying that Trans people and Male -identified people are just here to "get some pussy".
If that is indeed what you are saying, it's problematic on a couple of levels. First off, it implies that Transpeople or Male-identified people are vultures coming to pick the bones of the hoards of willing pussies clean. Not. So. Much.
Secondly, it implies that we Femmes are so automated, so "Stepford Pussied" that we cant discern for ourselves what we are attracted to.
There are a lot of very attractive Transmen and Male-identified people up in this space. When I was single, I didn't run right out and get me one of those fancy Trans models or play "Penelope Peril" on the railroad tracks of "prey" and "predator" simply because Thinker or Linus or Dylan EXISTED. Why? Because my desires arent that shallow.

Why mess up a good thing?

What's the "good thing" Kobi? A community without any sort of male-identified or Male presence at all? Im trying to understand the last part?

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Kobi,

My responses in red.

Thanks.

And just to be clear, Im not irritated or angry in this post. Not at all. Im just conversational and want to understand where you are coming from.

[Kobi]

Kobi,

My responses in red.

Thanks.

And just to be clear, Im not irritated or angry in this post. Not at all. Im just conversational and want to understand where you are coming from.[/QUOTE]

Medusa,

I appreciate you time and energy. I will try and help you understand where I am coming from but need to warn you at the moment I dont know if I am on foot or horseback.

And I want to reiterate, I am not dissing, dismissing or bashing anyones identity or right to be here. I am trying to understand where visible female id'd butches fit in this mix, if they fit in this mix.

And I apologize if I inadvertently offend someone. Im not trying to do so. Im trying to get my head around something that does not fit with my experiences.

I can understand mixed group and how that can be awesome. I dont understand how you can say this is a home for my identity if I had to ask where my zone was, cuz your choices for me didnt fit my identity. The mere fact I had to ask should have been the first clue.

I understand how trans folk have their roots in the butch-femme community. Not quite THAT dense. LOL.

I do not see a lot of visible lesbians here. Perhaps they choose go in areas or participate in threads I dont read.

I dont know what a transperson identifying as lesbian means. Does this mean biological males trans to females?

When I say I fought to be a lesbian I mean I am from the time when gay/trans folks were not as free as they are today to express their identities, nor did they have the concepts/fluidity to developed these or pursue them with as great a regularity as now.

And I mean when lesbian referred to women having the right to be visible in loving other women. It was a time when lesbian presupposed a gender of female. I never remember a gender issue except when it came to a male patriarchy and how it affects women and women as lesbians.

And it meant a space where women developed themselves as women and as lesbians within a male oriented, patriarchal society.

I think to reduce it to a lesbian thing only without addressing the male/female thing is a mistake. People can easily call me a misantrophe. But until you walked in my shoes, had my experiences and understand where my mistrust of male comes from, you have no right to judge me. I have a real hard time embracing that which continues to oppress me. Does that mean I dont think some of the males/male id's are not ok people? Of course not. Does that mean some impress me as priveleged, macho shitheads.....yeah.
I think it is great that I can say yea, I have a mistrust of things male and I have a dang good reason for it.

When I hear some male acknowledgement of this built in problem in our society and how it can impact on communities like this, I am willing to listen. When I get dismissed by females or males because they are not aware of or willing to admit this exists, I have a problem with it.

If this helps and it wont cuz my examples never do, my brother is gay. When I asked him and his partner about these issues and got passed the boy you women sure like to make things difficult comment.....it was very clear to me, from their perspective that trans/male id means nothing to them. At the moment, they see a mtf as a female, they see a ftm as a female. Neither is a threat because they arent real males. Not a representative sampling but an illustration of the thinking of the patriarchy.

I am not going to even address the transmen here for p***. That is incredible sexist to both male and female to objectify one for the mere purpose of a sex act. I am not trans so I was not aware there were trans communities.

What's the "good thing" Kobi? A community without any sort of male-identified or Male presence at all? Im trying to understand the last part?

Wow how to answer that one. I am a lesbian. I am a woman id lesbian. My world is women and lesbians. I live in a partiarchial world where I have to deal with male stuff every day. I like my female place and the energy it has and the energy it gives me. Is this an outdated concept? Is that wrong?
Are gay men flocking to spend time with me cuz I am a woman? Naw. Do I want to spend my free time with them.....depends who they are but not a lot of time. Do I perpetuate a separatist ideology....no....male kids have great toys and trucks and sports stuff and I like playing with them. Its the bigger ones who have this image and expectation of me as a woman and them as the ones in charge that bug me.

Try this on....if someone told you that we had to deconstruct femme because it is sexist and separatist and we must find a male counterpart to it and integrate it into our community would that detract from being a femme?

Anyone have any prevacid?








[/QUOTE]

[Medusa]

Responding in a darker red this time

Originally Posted by Kobi

Kobi,

My responses in red.

Thanks.

And just to be clear, Im not irritated or angry in this post. Not at all. Im just conversational and want to understand where you are coming from.

Medusa,

I appreciate you time and energy. I will try and help you understand where I am coming from but need to warn you at the moment I dont know if I am on foot or horseback.

And I want to reiterate, I am not dissing, dismissing or bashing anyones identity or right to be here. I am trying to understand where visible female id'd butches fit in this mix, if they fit in this mix.

And I apologize if I inadvertently offend someone. Im not trying to do so. Im trying to get my head around something that does not fit with my experiences.

I can understand mixed group and how that can be awesome. I dont understand how you can say this is a home for my identity if I had to ask where my zone was, cuz your choices for me didnt fit my identity. The mere fact I had to ask should have been the first clue.

I see what you are saying but I didnt understand why you asked where your zone was when I feel like this entire website is a zone for lesbians. This is a Queer website encompassing all of the spectrum and ways of being Queer. Lesbian fits there with equal and accessible space.
I think where you and I are misunderstanding each other is that I personally do not define "Lesbian" as a gender identity. I *do* define Butch and Femme as a gender identity. Hence, the Zones for each *gender* identity to commune with one another.
If you identify as a Butch Lesbian or a Femme Lesbian, one of those Zones should work for you. See what I'm saying?


I understand how trans folk have their roots in the butch-femme community. Not quite THAT dense. LOL.

I do not see a lot of visible lesbians here. Perhaps they choose go in areas or participate in threads I dont read.

Oooh, look harder! There are a lot of Lesbian-identified Butches and Femmes here. I do think that a lot of people on this site define "Lesbian" as a political identity and not a gender identity. Not all, mind you, but at least several people that I have talked to and seen write about it at length. If you want to see visible Lesbians, look at anything that I write, or anything that anyone else who identifies in any way as a Lesbian writes.
I don't necessarily identify as a Lesbian first or even in the same way as you; it's not my gender identity but I do embrace some of the politics that make up "Lesbian" as I see it.


I dont know what a transperson identifying as lesbian means. Does this mean biological males trans to females?

It can but it can also mean that a Female who has transitioned to Male who is now known as a Transman has chosen to hang on to their identity as a Lesbian.


And I mean when lesbian referred to women having the right to be visible in loving other women. It was a time when lesbian presupposed a gender of female. I never remember a gender issue except when it came to a male patriarchy and how it affects women and women as lesbians.

I think that in most cases, "Lesbian" still does presuppose a gender of female.

And it meant a space where women developed themselves as women and as lesbians within a male oriented, patriarchal society.

That happens here. Women develop themselves as women. Women develop themselves as Butches, Femmes, and sometimes Trans people.

I have a real hard time embracing that which continues to oppress me. Does that mean I dont think some of the males/male id's are not ok people? Of course not. Does that mean some impress me as priveleged, macho shitheads.....yeah.
I think it is great that I can say yea, I have a mistrust of things male and I have a dang good reason for it.

This might be the root of it. The mistrust of "all things male" can and does translate into a mistrust of all things Trans and all things male-identified. It summarily categorizes as "male" people who are often NOT summarily male and who most definitely do not have a summarily male experience.


Wow how to answer that one. I am a lesbian. I am a woman id lesbian. My world is women and lesbians. I live in a partiarchial world where I have to deal with male stuff every day. I like my female place and the energy it has and the energy it gives me. Is this an outdated concept? Is that wrong?

It's not outdated or wrong and you aren't alone. A great many of us on this website like our female places and revel in female energy.

Try this on....if someone told you that we had to deconstruct femme because it is sexist and separatist and we must find a male counterpart to it and integrate it into our community would that detract from being a femme?

I don't think it would detract from Femme. At least not mine. I don't see how identifying as Femme could ever be sexist since it is the very heart of embracing the feminine and Queering it up in fucking amazing ways. If someone asked me to find a male counterpart to it, I would be at a loss since Femme doesn't need anything male to exist. It's a standalone identity. Even if it fucks other women. Even if it fucks men.


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[/QUOTE]

[Kobi]

QUOTE=Medusa;116167]Responding in a darker red this time



Medusa,


[
I can understand mixed group and how that can be awesome. I dont understand how you can say this is a home for my identity if I had to ask where my zone was, cuz your choices for me didnt fit my identity. The mere fact I had to ask should have been the first clue.

I see what you are saying but I didnt understand why you asked where your zone was when I feel like this entire website is a zone for lesbians. This is a Queer website encompassing all of the spectrum and ways of being Queer. Lesbian fits there with equal and accessible space.


I think where you and I are misunderstanding each other is that I personally do not define "Lesbian" as a gender identity. I *do* define Butch and Femme as a gender identity. Hence, the Zones for each *gender* identity to commune with one another.
If you identify as a Butch Lesbian or a Femme Lesbian, one of those Zones should work for you. See what I'm saying?
I see exactly what you are saying. You are saying I must fit my identity into what you predetermined were my choices based on your perception of what my choices should be. After all, a butch is a butch is a butch. That is sexist, homophobic and misandriatic.


I do not see a lot of visible lesbians here. Perhaps they choose go in areas or participate in threads I dont read.

Oooh, look harder! There are a lot of Lesbian-identified Butches and Femmes here. I do think that a lot of people on this site define "Lesbian" as a political identity and not a gender identity. Not all, mind you, but at least several people that I have talked to and seen write about it at length. If you want to see visible Lesbians, look at anything that I write, or anything that anyone else who identifies in any way as a Lesbian writes.
I don't necessarily identify as a Lesbian first or even in the same way as you; it's not my gender identity but I do embrace some of the politics that make up "Lesbian" as I see it.

I dont see many visible lesbians. I will look harder but I see a reluctance of lesbians to come forth.
I dont know what a transperson identifying as lesbian means. Does this mean biological males trans to females?

It can but it can also mean that a Female who has transitioned to Male who is now known as a Transman has chosen to hang on to their identity as a Lesbian.
A transman who transition only to retain his identity as a lesbian? Doesnt that defeat the purpose of transitioning?

And I mean when lesbian referred to women having the right to be visible in loving other women. It was a time when lesbian presupposed a gender of female. I never remember a gender issue except when it came to a male patriarchy and how it affects women and women as lesbians.

I think that in most cases, "Lesbian" still does presuppose a gender of female. If in most cases, lesbian still presupposes a gender of female, why are you trying to tell me to fit myself into a femme, butch or trans or queer gender? That doesnt make sense.

And it meant a space where women developed themselves as women and as lesbians within a male oriented, patriarchal society.

That happens here. Women develop themselves as women. Women develop themselves as Butches, Femmes, and sometimes Trans people.
Agreed, all persons at any given time are works in progress.

I have a real hard time embracing that which continues to oppress me. Does that mean I dont think some of the males/male id's are not ok people? Of course not. Does that mean some impress me as priveleged, macho shitheads.....yeah.
I think it is great that I can say yea, I have a mistrust of things male and I have a dang good reason for it.

This might be the root of it. The mistrust of "all things male" can and does translate into a mistrust of all things Trans and all things male-identified. It summarily categorizes as "male" people who are often NOT summarily male and who most definitely do not have a summarily male experience.

You misunderstood me. I am not addressing the experience a male summarily might have or not. I am addressing how male privelege, whether is is appreciated or not, is a given. Sexism and misogyny can not be ignored whether it comes from a male perspective or a female perspective.
[

Try this on....if someone told you that we had to deconstruct femme because it is sexist and separatist and we must find a male counterpart to it and integrate it into our community would that detract from being a femme?

I don't think it would detract from Femme. At least not mine. I don't see how identifying as Femme could ever be sexist since it is the very heart of embracing the feminine and Queering it up in fucking amazing ways. If someone asked me to find a male counterpart to it, I would be at a loss since Femme doesn't need anything male to exist. It's a standalone identity. Even if it fucks other women. Even if it fucks men.

You misunderstood. I said we deconstruct femme. Femme doesnt exist anymore. There is no femme as the very heart of feminine. Gone. Poof. Doesnt exist.
We need to reconceptualize the entire thing and add a masculine/male component in order to recognize your male counterpart. It is no longer the heart of feminine, it is a merge of female/male. YOU as a gender cease to exist, replaced with something more acceptable to a broader group of ids.

Femme doesnt need anything male to exist? And here I thought someone might see me as a separatist. But lesbian needs something male to exist?Whats good for the goose is good for the gander yes?
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[Daryn]

ugh.. edited because of accidentally duplication ... next post is it

[Daryn]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Kobi,

My responses in red.

Thanks.

And just to be clear, Im not irritated or angry in this post. Not at all. Im just conversational and want to understand where you are coming from.

Medusa, my dear, you (and Jack) are wonderful..... and thanks for your commitment to inclusivity.