The Female Male ID "Wars"... or Great Divide

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Sometimes, one has to be brutally honest and let the chips fall where they may. I am tired and weary from trying to be nice and respectful and accomodating and seeing things from others perspective. Im tired of being made to feel like I need to compromise for the sake of harmony and solidarity.



-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

YES. OMG YES. I am a female id butch lesbian and it pisses me off to be lumped into a butch category with people who do not id as a female butch lesbian. I like female/femme/woman energy. That is what makes me who I am.

A male butch or male id butch is who they are. No harm, no foul. But the two are not synonymous.

I come on this site and I see all the male id/energy categories in the forums. Within that category I see pages of threads and I say ok cool. I see the femme categories and within those categories I see pages of threads....ok cool. But where is the lesbian stuff? I see a butch category with pages of threads...I dont see anything specific to lesbians. There one 1 ONE UNO lesbian thread located in the gender category? What lesbians cant even have a freakin category? How long has this site been running?

I find it odd that to feel the female/woman/female energy that is who I am, I have to go peek in the femme zone cuz thats where the most visible aspect of who I am is. I feel comfortable there with female energy.

It pisses me off that the butch zone feels very male/masculine energy laden, that it makes me feel uncomfortable, that it make me feel like an outsider, that it makes me feel like a second class citizen.

There is a HUGE difference between female butch energy and male/male masculine energy. When someone tells me their brain is wired like a male, warning bells go off for me. Its called male privelege, male posturing, male stuff. It's not who I am or what I am about.

It pisses me off that my long hard fought id as a female id butch lesbian has to be compromised for the sake of male id/male anything. I fought NOT to be seen as a woman who wanted to be a man and here I am lumped in with the very thing I have fought for decades not to be seen as.

This does not mean I begrudge males /or male id's. I dont. Just as I do not begrudge bi's or gay men or anyone else. Feel free to be whatever and whomever you are. But where do I belong? Where are the lesbians who want the butch-femme dynamic in their lives?

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?



-

Kobi,

Gloves off. You sound bitter and stuck. Why does me being me take away you being you? It doesn't.
You're a lesbian. I'm a queer. Maybe you should start YOUR OWN site instead of telling others to do that if you're worried my ID takes away from yours or maybe you're just worried my queerness might contaminate you.
I've heard this before.

[UofMfan]

And these are two of my examples of what I was talking about earlier.

Originally Posted by EzeeTiger

Kobi,

Gloves off. You sound bitter and stuck. Why does me being me take away you being you? It doesn't.
You're a lesbian. I'm a queer. Maybe you should start YOUR OWN site instead of telling others to do that if you're worried my ID takes away from yours or maybe you're just worried my queerness might contaminate you.
I've heard this before.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Once again, butch/femme equals lesbian female women (even though even some femmes don't ID as lesbian or female or women), and male IDs shouldn't be here...they should be on their own site for their own kind

Because having to skip over 'so many' threads is just too damned hard

And apparently, it's also hard to start a lesbian/female/woman thread


Dylan

Met, here's one of those examples you were asking for earlier

[Medusa]

Kobi said: I come on this site and I see all the male id/energy categories in the forums. Within that category I see pages of threads and I say ok cool. I see the femme categories and within those categories I see pages of threads....ok cool. But where is the lesbian stuff? I see a butch category with pages of threads...I dont see anything specific to lesbians. There one 1 ONE UNO lesbian thread located in the gender category? What lesbians cant even have a freakin category? How long has this site been running?



I'll address this from my place as an Admin on this site.

When I built the structure of these forums, I made a Butch Zone, a Femme Zone, and a Trans Zone because those are *gender* categories that this site focuses on.

What you are suggesting about "lesbians cant have a freakin' category" is not really on par with the idea that the *gender zones* are a "category".

"Lesbian" is implied in the way that we say this is a "Queer" site, meaning ALL identities be they Lesbian/Gay/Queer/etc.


Edited to add: The last sentence BECAUSE we have Lesbian Butches, Lesbian Femmes, and Lesbian Transfolks. BECAUSE we ahve GAY Butches, GAY Femmes, GAY Transfolks. BECAUSE we have Queer Butches, Queer Femmes, Queer Transfolks.

[Kobi]

[I'll address this from my place as an Admin on this site.

When I built the structure of these forums, I made a Butch Zone, a Femme Zone, and a Trans Zone because those are *gender* categories that this site focuses on.

What you are suggesting about "lesbians cant have a freakin' category" is not really on par with the idea that the *gender zones* are a "category".

"Lesbian" is implied in the way that we say this is a "Queer" site, meaning ALL identities be they Lesbian/Gay/Queer/etc.


Edited to add: The last sentence BECAUSE we have Lesbian Butches, Lesbian Femmes, and Lesbian Transfolks. BECAUSE we ahve GAY Butches, GAY Femmes, GAY Transfolks. BECAUSE we have Queer Butches, Queer Femmes, Queer Transfolks.[/QUOTE]

Thank you explaining this but I still dont get it. This approach is all new to me, I dont know the vernacular and what it means. I have been out of the loop for 20 years. Someone says third gender and Im like there is a third gender?

And Im not trying to be a bitch, Im trying to understand something and everytime I think I got a piece of it, I realize I dont.

When you say butch, femme, and trans are the gender categories that this focuses on and the rest of us are lumped into queer....I have a problem with that. You can categorize your site anyway you want lol, Im just trying to put the pieces together so I understand what ya'll are talking about. I dont know if I fit here. Im trying to figure that out.

The larger community everyone seems to point to is the GLBTIQ one. So gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, trans, I dont know what I is and Queer. I dont see femme or butch here. I do see lesbian and trans.

Femmes are a gender? Butches are a gender? And lesbians are what? Other? Miscellaneous?

It is your site, you can define it anyway you like. But to me, to say butch, femme, trans are the genders we deal with and the rest of you are a fruit salad seems sexist and misogynistic and misandriatic (I think thats right), and homophobic to me. It doesnt feel like those of us in the fruit salad are seen on an equal par with the rest of the identities that we are supposed to respect, accept, tolerate, and maybe honor.

And if you wished to cater to butch-femme-trans genders why not call it that? I would not have joined that cuz Im not a butch-femme-trans.

On the one hand, I hear we need to be excepting of all id's, male, female, butch, femme, male id, female id etc but we decided to categorize you so you cant easily self identify even tho we want you to but it doesnt fit the plan so dont ask questions cuz it doesnt make sense but that the way it is.

Again, I am trying to understand something that is not making sense to me. This is not computing and maybe it wasnt meant. Maybe I just dont belong here. Cuz no one is gonna tell me I, as a lesbian, must fit myself into preconceived notions. That is homophobic.

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by Kobi

And if you wished to cater to butch-femme-trans genders why not call it that? I would not have joined that cuz Im not a butch-femme-trans.
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I've read your various replies a couple of times and there is quite a bit that I don't understand. I picked this quote because it confuses me the most.

Please don't take this as me trying to silence you or tell you that you don't belong here because both would be wrong. This is simply me questioning for clarification.

The name of the site makes it pretty clear what it's all about. If you are not any of things the site caters to, then why join the site?

If I pulled this out of context or just completely read it wrong, please let me know!

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by gayla

I've read your various replies a couple of times and there is quite a bit that I don't understand. I picked this quote because it confuses me the most.

Please don't take this as me trying to silence you or tell you that you don't belong here because both would be wrong. This is simply me questioning for clarification.

The name of the site makes it pretty clear what it's all about. If you are not any of things the site caters to, then why join the site?

If I pulled this out of context or just completely read it wrong, please let me know!

The site is named butch femme planet. I am a butch. I didnt know how butch was defined here when I joined. I should have probably read the TOS with a little more attention. Or at least kept more current with whats new in the LGBTIQ community eh?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Kobi

The site is named butch femme planet. I am a butch. I didnt know how butch was defined here when I joined. I should have probably read the TOS with a little more attention. Or at least kept more current with whats new in the LGBTIQ community eh?

Oh btw, the "I" is inter-sexed, or shouldn't they be here either? Me being sarcastic.

[Medusa]

Kobi,

I wanted to address the quote above as well as a quote from your last post to me.

Kobi said: "I see exactly what you are saying. You are saying I must fit my identity into what you predetermined were my choices based on your perception of what my choices should be. After all, a butch is a butch is a butch. That is sexist, homophobic and misandriatic. "


I wasn't actually saying that your identity needed to fit into a box. I was saying that this website is ButchFemmePlanet.com. It caters to Lesbians, Queers, Genderfuckers, and other colorful people who identify as Butch, Femme, Trans, Stud, Diva, etc. etc. etc.
You said you identify as a Butch - that means that you belong here.
When you were asking about a "Lesbian" Zone, I was trying to illustrate the thought process behind why I built the zones that I did when we first built the site.
Having a Lesbian zone is redundant to me. This IS a website for Lesbians who identify as Butch, Femme, Stud, Diva, etc, but nevertheless, we added a zone for people who identify as Lesbian. It's there, it's open, and people are posting there.

This website caters to a special set of people. Unlike Lesbianation.com or pinksofa.com or planetsappho.com or grrl2grrl.com or any of the other websites that cater specifically to Lesbian women in a women-only space, we cater specifically to a Butch and Femme populace that includes a plethora of identities. (and this is where male-identified Butches, boi-identified Femmes, Trans men, Trans women, and genderfuckers come in)

We are never going to be a website only for women and women-identified people. Those websites already exist. We are never going to just ignore, marginalize, or throw away the large percentage of our membership who identify as males, who live as males, who have lived as males, or who live as something they haven't yet defined but that may one day be male in order to feel "safe". I don't think we have to do that. I think that to be safe, we need to learn to help each other, learn to understand each other, learn to embrace each other.
The throwing away? Not so much.

We are never going to do that. We are also never going to do shitty things like have events in places that male-identified people and Transpeople aren't welcome to. That includes MichFest (unless their policy has changed) and Olivia cruises.
Because guess what? All of the people who come here are valued, loved, and needed for this to be the awesome place that it is. That includes you, Kobi.


I also wanted to address this:

Originally Posted by Kobi

The site is named butch femme planet. I am a butch. I didnt know how butch was defined here when I joined. I should have probably read the TOS with a little more attention. Or at least kept more current with whats new in the LGBTIQ community eh?

I just wanted to say that it doesn't matter who I define Butch or how Dylan defines Butch or how Adele defines Butch or how UofMfan defines Butch. It matters how YOU define it for yourself, and guess what? However you define it is correct. Just like UofMfan's way of defining it is correct. Just like Jackhammer's way of defining it is correct.

This has been a tough conversation but I think this is always worth it. I like understanding new people and I like being expanded by how other people think. That's hot.

m

[Daryn]

Originally Posted by Kobi

The site is named butch femme planet. I am a butch. I didnt know how butch was defined here when I joined. I should have probably read the TOS with a little more attention. Or at least kept more current with whats new in the LGBTIQ community eh?

WOW. It sounds like you think there is only one definition of butch on this site and I bet there are well more than half a dozen. It sounds like you want one definition of butch that matches how you see yourself as butch. It's never been that way for as long as I can remember and that's more than 35 years of being OUT.

[Stoney]

Originally Posted by Daryn

WOW. It sounds like you think there is only one definition of butch on this site and I bet there are well more than half a dozen. It sounds like you want one definition of butch that matches how you see yourself as butch. It's never been that way for as long as I can remember and that's more than 35 years of being OUT.

Well it sounds to me that Kobi is merely trying to open her mind to the differences and take them in. because someone relates to something particular doesn't mean they shun the rest.

I see Kobi's posts as a person who is trying to understand differences and more ( forgive me Kobi )up to the times .

I don't believe that just stating the things about herself and her feeling deserve an accusation of exclusion.

In all honesty and I have said this before back ten years ago when I joined B-F ( the other) I honestly found it looking for womyn only site.
In my personal life, I did not think too much about identity, in fact I knew next to nothing about trans gender people. this doesn't mean I don't care about them, or disapprove, or think they shouldn't be on butch-femme website, I just never really gave it much thought. I have been wrapped up into being a lesbian and a feminist for a long time now so that is the history I studied and what I related to.

I have been reading this thread and I have to say we defend what we know and we reach to learn more,, that is what I see Kobi doing here.
Trying to understand , Trying to expand her understanding while holding on to her root beliefs,
Every one has there own experience in this life, I entertain the thoughts of things that resonate with me...that help make-up who I am. I am learning everyday that there are all different kinds of people besides me.

It's like never studying about giraffes, but you have done major research on zebras. I can only relate to giraffes according to what I know about Zebra's and what the two may or may not have in common.

It doesn't mean I don't like giraffes, it doesn't mean I feel threatened by giraffes, it doesn't mean I don't want giraffes in the Zoo cause I never knew anything about giraffes......

Because I don't know anything about giraffes I may ask people about giraffes, I may ask the giraffeabout himself,what he likes or doesnt, what he wants.... how to care for him.


He might just get pissed off at me and tell me I must not like him, and dont want him around , claim I only like one Zebra's because I know more about zebras.... and accuse me of being prejudice against girraffes
When I try to explain I only had time to learn about Zebras because I have been around only zebras and it wasnt that I never cared about girrafes it was that I had to make time for Zebras because I live my life among Zebras.

Eventually if the girrafes go on long enough about how careless and selfish I am for not knowing how to care for them, I might just leave the whole damn Zoo,

I never heard much about giraffes but apparently they seem to get pissed off and accusatory if you havent read the manual before you engage with them.


I want to expand what I know about people, because trans-gendering hasnt interested me, I know little about it, that doesnt me mean I am not supportive, It means I have been busy learning and creating the life that directly relates to me. I try to know a little about alot of things and alot about a few things......



I think most of us are like that.
lack of interest does not equal
bias or dislike.


Peace to everyone......

Stoney

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Thank you explaining this but I still dont get it. This approach is all new to me, I dont know the vernacular and what it means. I have been out of the loop for 20 years. Someone says third gender and Im like there is a third gender?

And Im not trying to be a bitch, Im trying to understand something and everytime I think I got a piece of it, I realize I dont.

When you say butch, femme, and trans are the gender categories that this focuses on and the rest of us are lumped into queer....I have a problem with that. You can categorize your site anyway you want lol, Im just trying to put the pieces together so I understand what ya'll are talking about. I dont know if I fit here. Im trying to figure that out.

The larger community everyone seems to point to is the GLBTIQ one. So gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, trans, I dont know what I is and Queer. I dont see femme or butch here. I do see lesbian and trans.

Femmes are a gender? Butches are a gender? And lesbians are what? Other? Miscellaneous?

It is your site, you can define it anyway you like. But to me, to say butch, femme, trans are the genders we deal with and the rest of you are a fruit salad seems sexist and misogynistic and misandriatic (I think thats right), and homophobic to me. It doesnt feel like those of us in the fruit salad are seen on an equal par with the rest of the identities that we are supposed to respect, accept, tolerate, and maybe honor.

And if you wished to cater to butch-femme-trans genders why not call it that? I would not have joined that cuz Im not a butch-femme-trans.

On the one hand, I hear we need to be excepting of all id's, male, female, butch, femme, male id, female id etc but we decided to categorize you so you cant easily self identify even tho we want you to but it doesnt fit the plan so dont ask questions cuz it doesnt make sense but that the way it is.

Again, I am trying to understand something that is not making sense to me. This is not computing and maybe it wasnt meant. Maybe I just dont belong here. Cuz no one is gonna tell me I, as a lesbian, must fit myself into preconceived notions. That is homophobic.
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I will be 58yrs old the end of June. I feel you on this. About 10 years ago (after my 16 yr marriage broke up) I entered the butch/femme community again.........online at the dash site. I have always been butch and always been woman and always been a lesbian/dyke.

Frankly I was horrified and baffled and not understanding what had happened to 'my community'.....Male pronouns as default for butches....transmen who identified as straight.....butches who id'd as male....the list goes on.

It was a struggle at first. I had to learn new things. The first being gender as something other than biological sex of female and male.

I got my ass chewed up and spit out more times than I can count. I stuck it out and listened and learned. It was damn hard to open my mind and understand a new way of talking about butch/femme.

One thing I did find to be crucially important. In this new world there seemed to be this sense of butch=man. I wanted young butches coming out to know they could still be a woman and be butch. It was ok and they are not less than. There was a time on the dash site when I was the ONLY butch who insisted on female pronouns.

Now we have this new home on the Planet. Here things are truly different. There is a lesbian zone....it came about because it was asked for. The butch zone has room for all us butches, not just the butch brothers. There is a pronoun place in your profile so each us can use respectful pronouns. There is transparency and accountability on the part of Medusa and Jack. This Planet is growing and changing for the better. This Planet is growing and changing for the better.

Kobi my sister....read with an open mind. I know the knee jerk reactions you are having. I had them and once in a while still have them. What I have learned and gained from listening and learning is a broader community and a greater sense of understanding of my fellow queers. My butch brothers have as much right to be here as my butch sisters. Transmen and Transwomen belong here. They do not dilute my community, they enrich it.

The presence of a broad spectrum of gender identity gives folks coming out a place where they can grow and learn about who they might be. It was a struggle to understand this and I still have trouble on occasion.

Feel free to PM me at anytime and I am glad to talk to you about this. Like I said........I feel ya........I've been there.