OFOS Butches & Femmes

[giggleluver]

Hello, anyone around?

[RumorHasIt]

LOVE this topic. Being in the .........*ahem * mid years of my life, I have missed OFOS .

[Chad]

I am bumping this thread because I am OFOS.

[homoe]

I'm OFOS as well so thanks Chad for bumping the thread

[homoe]

Originally Posted by Firedance

I have a new favorite Blog. It's all about OFOS, and WHY it STILL matters! Disclaimer, this is written by a cis-guy, but manners transcend gender don't they?

Here is a sample of the amazing writing...


A Gentleman’s Chivalry Acts Explained in Practicality.


I have always been of the mind that in a democracy manners are the only effective weapons against the bowie-knife.
James Russell Lowell
We can find countless articles online praising and criticizing the most evident acts of Chivalry a Gentleman can do towards a lady; holding doors open, opening car doors, and pulling chairs. Those that comment against them, usually do so out of either a lack of manners or simply not understanding why these acts are done. I can’t really blame their ignorance on the topic, because they are not really interested in it. What really surprises me is the lack of understanding by those who profess being Gentlemen. That is why so many of those “Is Chivalry dead” debates end up with the Gentleman thrashed by their counterpart.

If you don’t understand what you are doing and more importantly WHY you are doing it, your actions become simply a pantomime, and imitation, that ends up looking awkward. This is especially true if we don’t have a sense of empathy towards the person in the receiving end of the action. Keep in mind that manners are nothing more than a sensitive awareness of the feelings of others. If you have that awareness, you have good manners, no matter what fork you use. With that in mind, let’s break down the practicality of some of the more typical actions that can be expected from a Gentleman.

Opening a door for a Lady
Let me start by clarifying, this has nothing to do with a Gentleman thinking women can’t open their own doors. It came from two specific traditions, the overelaborate clothing women used to wear and the role of the Gentleman as a Bodyguard. First off, a woman’s skirt was so wide, they couldn’t even reach the door handle. That is no longer the case, so we don’t need to take this into account any longer. The second is the role of the Bodyguard, of creating a safe environment for women. This is something that still needs to be maintained and even promoted.
A gentleman will open a door first, making sure that the room is safe for her to enter. As she enters, he is able to scan the surroundings to make sure that the area is safe. As he enters after her, the lady is kept from having her back to the door. You might think this seems somewhat paranoid and overly cautious. Just take a few minutes viewing some of the stories of what the ladies have to deal with in a daily basis, and then tell me I am being overly cautious.

Walking a Lady to her door.
Again, as with opening doors, this is all about providing a safe environment for the Lady. Just refer to “Opening a door for a Lady” for a better explanation.

Pulling chairs
Again, a lady can sit down without assistance. This tradition again came from the elaborate dresses of old. But can we really get rid of it? This actually depends on how the Lady is dressed. If she is wearing anything other than a skirt, yes. But if she is wearing a skirt, the lady will probably try to fold it under her legs so it sets properly as she sits down. Now, how is she going to be able to do this AND pull the chair at once? Gentlemen, doesn’t take much to be decent.

Paying
I am tired of clearing this up. Who makes the invite, pays. It’s that simple. It’s not about showing off, or thinking she needs your money, or whatever other nonsense people will say about the topic. You invited them, means you are picking up the check.
What is so complicated?

Helping a lady into and out of a Car
Take a minute and look at your car. Imagine trying to get into it or out of it with a short skirt and heels. Now imagine doing it gracefully. If you drive a low profile sports car or a high truck or SUV, the difficulty level this is even higher. Gentlemen, this is just simple act of consideration towards the Lady.

This is also the reason why you should help a lady when she is walking up and down stairs. Try doing it with 3”+ heels.

Offering a Lady your Jacket
Again, let’s look at women’s fashion when compared to men’s clothing. We typically dress in layers; from the undershirt (optional), the shirt, a vest (optional), and a Jacket. A lady will probably be wearing a lot less. If the weather is somewhat cold, please don’t offer her your jacket. Simply take it off and place it over her shoulders. If you offer, she might probably get self-conscious and refuse, even if she is freezing.

Offering a Lady your seat.
This one, I really can’t believe I have to explain, but here goes. First off, have you taken a look at women’s footwear? It’s a simple act. It’s not like you don’t need the exercise.

I know that most of the comments are based on how the lady is dressed, and you can simply say it’s her problem, that she chose to dress that way. You might think that it was her choice to wear heals, or a strapless dress, or short skirt. Yes, it was her decision. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be considerate.

Guys, none of this is obligatory. Nobody is forcing you. If anything, this has become so rare, it’s no longer even expected from you. Just don’t complain that some of us are not as selfish and self-centered.

http://beingcaballero.blogspot.com/

I've been around A LONG time and even I didn't know the history of fashion and its effects on why doors were opened, etc! I learned something new today and that's always a good thing

[homoe]

I'd just like to add my two cents about paying...

Paying
"I am tired of clearing this up. Who makes the invite, pays. It’s that simple. It’s not about showing off, or thinking she needs your money, or whatever other nonsense people will say about the topic. You invited them, means you are picking up the check. What is so complicated"?

I think some femmes may be uncomfortable with this because they think 'something' might be expect if they allow the butch to pay! An OFOS butch would never, in a million years, expect anything in return IMHO!

If you're out with someone who gives you the impression they'd expect that, RUN FOR THE HILLS and F A S T !

[Chad]

Originally Posted by homoe

I'd just like to add my two cents about paying...

Paying
"I am tired of clearing this up. Who makes the invite, pays. It’s that simple. It’s not about showing off, or thinking she needs your money, or whatever other nonsense people will say about the topic. You invited them, means you are picking up the check. What is so complicated"?

I think some femmes may be uncomfortable with this because they think 'something' might be expect if they allow the butch to pay! An OFOS butch would never, in a million years, expect anything in return IMHO!

If you're out with someone who gives you the impression they'd expect that, RUN FOR THE HILLS and F A S T !

Agreed, well said buddy.

[Chad]

As a native Texan being polite and respectful was a big part of my education and environment.

Holding the elevator door for anyone, helping someone with a stroller on an escalator, opening doors, giving up my seat to someone less fortunate, smiling at a stranger and saying hi.

My parents taught me to be a gentleman to everyone that I encountered.

I am old fashioned and old school in all my relationships. However, I am not "leave it to beaver's" dad I do not come home from work and sit in the recliner expecting to be waited on. I am a worker.

When relationships uphold openess, trust, respect, and politeness as the standard I am very easy to get along with.

[Bootsandheels]

This thread deserves a big BUMP and let's hope for some lively discussion as well! As a self proclaimed OFOS femme (we are a rare breed methinks) I have had some interesting experiences as of late within the last month. I was getting to know someone first online, then in person and I thought for all intents and purposes that we were dating. Unfortunately, interest in each other waned once we spent enough time together.
Save for one breakfast that I paid for, she paid for everything else with the exception of an event that I personally had invited her to that I will be reimbursing her for as she kindly got the tickets for us as I was super busy that day. What I am having an issue with is her bringing up the fact that she "paid for everything". It made me feel like I had missed some secret message that I was supposed to be paying for my 1/2 or offering to go Dutch on things. This butch KNEW I was OFOS and delighted in that fact. I also had at the very beginning ASKED if I should pay for my meal to be crystal clear that she was ok with paying. She wouldn't hear of it, even though I was more than willing. You know, sometimes, even if I am thinking we are dating when it's early days and brand new, sometimes it's nice to offer and not expect the butch to pay for everything right off the bat you know what I mean? I am very sensitive to this and always check in. I have NEVER ever EVER had a butch that I dated briefly (and no there was absolutely no sexual intimacy or expectation of that) come back at me with this statement of "I paid for pretty much everything except the one breakfast". Wow...I am a little dumbfounded and confused here. If a butch shows up on the very first meet and greet date with a bouquet of absolutely gorgeous flowers and proceeds to invite you out to dinner and invite or say let's go to....whatever restaurant/coffee place/etc. I take that to mean you are DATING ME especially if you KNOW I am an OFOS and you might not have dated an OFOS femme much in the past, but you were delighted to have found one TO date! Honestly...help a femme out here...I am just wanting to make sure I didn't miss anything! I don't date a lot and I had high hopes for this butch, but when she said that to me, it felt like she was implying that I should have been more sensitive and offered to pay for more or 1/2 of whatever she invited me to do! It's left a bad taste in my mouth and I just want to know there are OFOS butches out there that get it! I'm so selective in who I date, and I am so glad I nipped this in the bud because it was obviously going to be more thorny down the road! Please do NOT ask me who because a true OFOS lady would NEVER do that! Thank you for reading, for your input and feedback!

[~ocean]

Boots it's a undefined line these days ~ but if she did the asking out ,she should have picked up the tab unless she said differently. Obviously you seem very independent and wouldn't mind paying your way.. be glad you found out she sounds like a little girl btwn the sheets to be that petty. Maybe it would be in your class of butch' to look into gay .professional woman. Here in Boston it's a common way to meet people with more desirable character. A true OFOS butch are RARE !

[firegal]

Originally Posted by Bootsandheels

This thread deserves a big BUMP and let's hope for some lively discussion as well! As a self proclaimed OFOS femme (we are a rare breed methinks) I have had some interesting experiences as of late within the last month. I was getting to know someone first online, then in person and I thought for all intents and purposes that we were dating. Unfortunately, interest in each other waned once we spent enough time together.
Save for one breakfast that I paid for, she paid for everything else with the exception of an event that I personally had invited her to that I will be reimbursing her for as she kindly got the tickets for us as I was super busy that day. What I am having an issue with is her bringing up the fact that she "paid for everything". It made me feel like I had missed some secret message that I was supposed to be paying for my 1/2 or offering to go Dutch on things. This butch KNEW I was OFOS and delighted in that fact. I also had at the very beginning ASKED if I should pay for my meal to be crystal clear that she was ok with paying. She wouldn't hear of it, even though I was more than willing. You know, sometimes, even if I am thinking we are dating when it's early days and brand new, sometimes it's nice to offer and not expect the butch to pay for everything right off the bat you know what I mean? I am very sensitive to this and always check in. I have NEVER ever EVER had a butch that I dated briefly (and no there was absolutely no sexual intimacy or expectation of that) come back at me with this statement of "I paid for pretty much everything except the one breakfast". Wow...I am a little dumbfounded and confused here. If a butch shows up on the very first meet and greet date with a bouquet of absolutely gorgeous flowers and proceeds to invite you out to dinner and invite or say let's go to....whatever restaurant/coffee place/etc. I take that to mean you are DATING ME especially if you KNOW I am an OFOS and you might not have dated an OFOS femme much in the past, but you were delighted to have found one TO date! Honestly...help a femme out here...I am just wanting to make sure I didn't miss anything! I don't date a lot and I had high hopes for this butch, but when she said that to me, it felt like she was implying that I should have been more sensitive and offered to pay for more or 1/2 of whatever she invited me to do! It's left a bad taste in my mouth and I just want to know there are OFOS butches out there that get it! I'm so selective in who I date, and I am so glad I nipped this in the bud because it was obviously going to be more thorny down the road! Please do NOT ask me who because a true OFOS lady would NEVER do that! Thank you for reading, for your input and feedback!

Yikes... will only speak for me.... ofos is rigid in those of us that claim that fame. flowers as you stated in your situation in the beginning seem to be a i wanna sex you! following their responses after that....

otherwise...

for me a OFOS or what ever just to me a friggin BUTCH wines and dines my person of interest.....any lady!

if by some chance i couldnt afford to pay for the date... i have a choice to tell such and explain i feel and believe i should pay to give her a chance for input... or crap if you cant afford it....brother dont....or get a 2nd job..

their are so many things that dont cost a arm and a leg....but due dilligence rises above!

OFOS ..... old school. I cannot speak for the more recent school... maybe it is different!

flowers...dinner ... cards... little things like candy silly gift are the easy and normal parts of ofos.....

yanno some folks dont get the OFOS part and it is always telling if they dont... the same as folks that done get the butch-femme dynamic... same as those that dont get the stone butch-stone femme dynamic....

this is why this site works for so many of us... who gets who we are.


hugs to you boots!

[firegal]

PS.... Boots.. hang in there!.... hugs

[Bootsandheels]

Originally Posted by homoe

I've been around A LONG time and even I didn't know the history of fashion and its effects on why doors were opened, etc! I learned something new today and that's always a good thing

Originally Posted by ~ocean

Boots it's a undefined line these days ~ but if she did the asking out ,she should have picked up the tab unless she said differently. Obviously you seem very independent and wouldn't mind paying your way.. be glad you found out she sounds like a little girl btwn the sheets to be that petty. Maybe it would be in your class of butch' to look into gay .professional woman. Here in Boston it's a common way to meet people with more desirable character. A true OFOS butch are RARE !

EXACTLY! Thank you Ocean for posting this, and YES I am a very strong independent fierce OFOS femme. If she hadn't also been showing all the other signs of chivalry openly (opening all doors, shielding me on the sidewalk, hand at the small of my back to help guide me across a busy street in my 3.5" heels...etc.) I would have thought mayyyybe I should rethink it all. But she did invite and ask every.single.time. I believe you are right about between the sheets...and YES...OFOS butches are more rare than we are I am certain of it! Sigh...a girl can dream and check the professional lesbian meet ups...LOL

[BullDog]

I do consider myself to be an old school butch, and I definitely think it's wrong for anyone to try to hold something over your head after the fact. Most old school butches I know - including myself - it is our pleasure to pay for a date and definitely not a burden or something to throw back at someone if things don't go our way later.

I also don't think it is just specifically old school or a dating situation. If I pay for something, or give a gift or help someone out in some way it is genuinely because I want to do it and there are no strings attached. I'm not going to complain about something later after the fact when I did it because I wanted to do it in the first place and it was my decision and pleasure to do it. If someone wants double dutch or some other type of dating arrangement then it's their right to express that too, but throwing something back in your face after the fact is definitely rude. So perhaps this person isn't an old school butch, but I also think it is rude no matter how they i.d.

Edit: I also think there could be situations where a butch was very much old school but perhaps had a limited income or some other situation that made it difficult to always pay and there could still be a strong old school dynamic. It is more about how you treat someone and how you conduct yourself, but paying for a date is usually something an old school butch genuinely does take pleasure in when they can do it.

[Bootsandheels]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I do consider myself to be an old school butch, and I definitely think it's wrong for anyone to try to hold something over your head after the fact. Most old school butches I know - including myself - it is our pleasure to pay for a date and definitely not a burden or something to throw back at someone if things don't go our way later.

I also don't think it is just specifically old school or a dating situation. If I pay for something, or give a gift or help someone out in some way it is genuinely because I want to do it and there are no strings attached. I'm not going to complain about something later after the fact when I did it because I wanted to do it in the first place and it was my decision and pleasure to do it. If someone wants double dutch or some other type of dating arrangement then it's their right to express that too, but throwing something back in your face after the fact is definitely rude. So perhaps this person isn't an old school butch, but I also think it is rude no matter how they i.d.

Edit: I also think there could be situations where a butch was very much old school but perhaps had a limited income or some other situation that made it difficult to always pay and there could still be a strong old school dynamic. It is more about how you treat someone and how you conduct yourself, but paying for a date is usually something an old school butch genuinely does take pleasure in when they can do it.

Thank you so much for posting this Bulldog, much appreciated, and thank you for validating me. Your last paragraph was exactly why I was confused, because this pleasure was always evident in other dating situations and I thought it was quite petty. Even though this butch thought she was OFOS, she definitely is not. I am always very sensitive to finances too...and it is more about how you are treated than how much is being spent. It's about the heart and soul...the connection and magic of the dynamic!

[firegal]

For fucks sake i cant rep u Bull... i agree whole heartily .....lolcomputers.... WTF

[Bootsandheels]

Originally Posted by firegal

PS.... Boots.. hang in there!.... hugs

Thank you for posting firegal...love what you shared. Hugs backatcha!!!

[homoe]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I do consider myself to be an old school butch, and I definitely think it's wrong for anyone to try to hold something over your head after the fact. Most old school butches I know - including myself - it is our pleasure to pay for a date and definitely not a burden or something to throw back at someone if things don't go our way later.

I also don't think it is just specifically old school or a dating situation. If I pay for something, or give a gift or help someone out in some way it is genuinely because I want to do it and there are no strings attached. I'm not going to complain about something later after the fact when I did it because I wanted to do it in the first place and it was my decision and pleasure to do it. If someone wants double dutch or some other type of dating arrangement then it's their right to express that too, but throwing something back in your face after the fact is definitely rude. So perhaps this person isn't an old school butch, but I also think it is rude no matter how they i.d.

Edit: I also think there could be situations where a butch was very much old school but perhaps had a limited income or some other situation that made it difficult to always pay and there could still be a strong old school dynamic. It is more about how you treat someone and how you conduct yourself, but paying for a date is usually something an old school butch genuinely does take pleasure in when they can do it.

Very well put..

[clay]

Originally Posted by Bootsandheels

This thread deserves a big BUMP and let's hope for some lively discussion as well! As a self proclaimed OFOS femme (we are a rare breed methinks) I have had some interesting experiences as of late within the last month. I was getting to know someone first online, then in person and I thought for all intents and purposes that we were dating. Unfortunately, interest in each other waned once we spent enough time together.
Save for one breakfast that I paid for, she paid for everything else with the exception of an event that I personally had invited her to that I will be reimbursing her for as she kindly got the tickets for us as I was super busy that day. What I am having an issue with is her bringing up the fact that she "paid for everything". It made me feel like I had missed some secret message that I was supposed to be paying for my 1/2 or offering to go Dutch on things. This butch KNEW I was OFOS and delighted in that fact. I also had at the very beginning ASKED if I should pay for my meal to be crystal clear that she was ok with paying. She wouldn't hear of it, even though I was more than willing. You know, sometimes, even if I am thinking we are dating when it's early days and brand new, sometimes it's nice to offer and not expect the butch to pay for everything right off the bat you know what I mean? I am very sensitive to this and always check in. I have NEVER ever EVER had a butch that I dated briefly (and no there was absolutely no sexual intimacy or expectation of that) come back at me with this statement of "I paid for pretty much everything except the one breakfast". Wow...I am a little dumbfounded and confused here. If a butch shows up on the very first meet and greet date with a bouquet of absolutely gorgeous flowers and proceeds to invite you out to dinner and invite or say let's go to....whatever restaurant/coffee place/etc. I take that to mean you are DATING ME especially if you KNOW I am an OFOS and you might not have dated an OFOS femme much in the past, but you were delighted to have found one TO date! Honestly...help a femme out here...I am just wanting to make sure I didn't miss anything! I don't date a lot and I had high hopes for this butch, but when she said that to me, it felt like she was implying that I should have been more sensitive and offered to pay for more or 1/2 of whatever she invited me to do! It's left a bad taste in my mouth and I just want to know there are OFOS butches out there that get it! I'm so selective in who I date, and I am so glad I nipped this in the bud because it was obviously going to be more thorny down the road! Please do NOT ask me who because a true OFOS lady would NEVER do that! Thank you for reading, for your input and feedback!

((((((((((((((((((((((((((Boots))))))))))))))))))) ))
First off let me say I am so very sorry that you had this bad experience!

There ARE still OFOS Butches left (yes, I AM one of them!!) and we are out there, just perhaps not in close proximity.

I want to strongly disagree with "bringing flowers on first date may suggest an "I wanna sex you"....OH hell NO! Bringing flowers is in no way a sign of expecting anything....at least not in MY book!!! I bring a bouquet just to say "I was thinking of you when I saw these and wanted to surprise you". I tend to ask questions and PAY attention to little hints a woman may drop regarding her likes, dislikes, etc.

I am also one who will make it crystal clear whom is paying for the meal...and yes, sometimes, a femme does and will ask me & state clearly "I am paying, I asked". No matter whom does the asking, it should be made precisely clear whom IS paying or if "dutch" or "double dutch".

Being OFOS, in MY book, is NOT about money or status....it is about my core being..who I am deep inside...it is my moral compass...my integrity....my true North....in how I interact with an OFOS Femme and how I make her feel..protected, secure, appreciated, valued as an OFOS Femme AND a woman. It is about how I made her feel..as a lady...as a woman..and enhanced her feelings of being respected for herself. I would hope she has a smile on her face & joy in her heart..and want to see me..again..and again..because she felt it in her heart.

My manners of being an OFOS butch include, but not limited to, RESPECTING her as a woman, opening a door, pulling out her seat, helping her to don & doff a coat, OR giving mine should she need it...placing my hand at small of her back while walking, walking on outside of her in public, and walking her to her door after a date....opening it, and giving her a hug & a kiss on the cheek (if amenable to both of us), then going my way. A meal has never, nor will it ever, equate to "expecting sex" afterwards. I wouldn't ever be one to make mention of "how much" or even "how little" may have been spent. My focus would instead be on "how interesting, how enjoyable, ho2w good she felt inside, and how much of HER likes did I include on any outings....considering her likes/dislikes.

I am very old fashioned in my dating someone. I am very respectful of a woman. I will not engage in intimacy until much later (months) after starting to see someone. It is very important to be into enjoying one another, getting to know each other's likes/dislikes, and having that mutual respect to wait. Comedian Steve Harvey once said something to this effect...when you get a new job, you have to wait three months before you get benefits". If we would approach dating as such, waiting a decent time, and focusing instead on the person, relationships might stand a better chance to survive.

There are really no easy answers to things brought up, just each of us have our own ideals, thoughts, and personal opinions. These are some of mine.

OFOS Butch and OFOS Femme does not EVER equate to whom spends the most or least, it isn't about $$ at all but rather who I am in my core....how I treat a woman, how she treats me, mutual respect, being kind, courteous, respectful, having manners, and just plain being true to my inner being, and how I make a woman feel is of utmost importance. I am not a showy kind of butch but rather pay attention to the little things she says. Once we are dating & enjoying each other, I enjoy handwritten notes, a single rose..just because...cooking for her, reading poetry if she likes that, watching a sunset OR sunrise, walking along a waterfront if close by, packing a picnic of her likes and sitting somewhere to enjoy it. None of these puts anyone out $$ so to speak.

A first date should be planned AFTER an initial meet & greet. Sometimes folks get these two mixed up. Agreeing to a public venue to meet the first time, to me, is NOT a date but rather a get to know you kind of meeting, to see if there is any interest to go further.

Boots, know there are a lot of us left. I happen to know you are a wonderful, very classy, stand up kind of OFOS Femme and I know you are a very hard worker, you are very selective, and you deserve a wonderful OFOS Butch....wishing you all the very best and thanks for opening up this dialogue. ((((((((((((((Bootsie))))))))))))))

[BullDog]

I don't know where I came up with double dutch - maybe because there are two people on a date? I'm pretty sure it's just "going dutch" where each person pays their share. Anyway, when I hear Dutch all I can think of is dutch apple pie!