Ask a trans person!

[CamBAMF]

Originally Posted by Dylan

While I disagree with a few other things you've said, this is the largest area in which I disagree with you.

Yeah, it's a bathroom.

Can you tell me, do you think it's ok for cismen to use the women's room too? I mean, should any man be able to use the women's room simply because he 'likes the motif'?

When One decides they're a man...they're a man. They don't get to live with one foot on this side, and one foot on that side. It's incredibly sexist and privileged (in my opinion) to say, "I want that, but I don't want that part of that". You don't get to make women feel uncomfortable, because YOU (general...not personal) are afraid of a bathroom. You (again general, not personal) don't get to soak up the privilege of being male, then trample on women-only space. There's things that suck about being male. You don't get to take the good parts and toss out the bad parts. That's incredibly privileged...and in this case sexist.

Scaring women for your own personal benefit is privileged and sexist.

Making women feel uncomfortable for your own person benefit is privileged and sexist.

Expecting women to accommodate and cater to YOUR (general) fears, wants, needs, etc is the HILT of sexist and privileged.

Expecting women to make room for YOU and coddle YOU is...sexist and privileged

If you're a man, you're a man, and you don't get 'special' privileges/access/whatever, simply because you were born in the wrong body.

ESPECIALLY considering the men's room is actually safer (although, definitely not cleaner).

I just can't imagine allowing ANY other man special entrance into the women's room (the exception being small children, or men with disabilities who need help, and that help tends to be *women*).

Perhaps you have gotten lucky, because I know I've had security called on me a number of times. I've even had a security officer crawl under the stall door to open it and remove me (while I was in the middle of doin' mahhh business) from the restroom. I've had women freak out. I've been lead to the men's room more times than I can even count.

To be quite honest, I truly believe those who make the biggest noise about the men's room, haven't even used the men's room. Because men don't even *look* at you in the men's room.

And to use the women's room, because you just want attention is to me just a complete abuse of privilege...especially when coupled with the statistics and fear of women and rape. It's taking advantage, and it's just the HILT of sexism and an abuse of power. As if men are just allowed to go wherever they want and do whatever they want, and women are just supposed to accommodate and 'understand' and then even CODDLE and soothe the fear of men. It's gross and abusive.

If you're a man, you don't take advantage. You don't make women feel uncomfortable, so you can feel 'safer', or 'get attention', or 'be more comfortable'.

I mean, if you want attention, men will definitely give it to you. If you don't feel safe in X space, find another space. If you want to feel comforted and soothed, you don't just *take* that from women or women's space.

I just cannot imagine another man doing any of these things, or using any of these excuses without having his ass handed to him.


Dylan

P.S. All the 'yous' in this post are completely general...I get tired of saying 'One', because sometimes it comes off sounding sarcastic

Whoa hold on. I'm not saying men, (FTM or not) have the right to do ANYTHING they want because they are men. I simply comment on the fact there is a big issue with this particular gendered area for no ryhme or reason (of course this is my opinion).

I don't find that sexist, because I dont believe its just men. Its of no real consern of mine if a woman does her business in the male restroom or a guy relieves himself in the female bathroom. I'm not going to call security on a female in the mens room- and its not like females have NEVER used the mens room for one reason or another. But that doesn't make the news. Its not news worthy. It doesnt bother men (typically speaking). And thats just what I expect from decent humans beings- women and men. This isnt the right to vote. this isnt asking a female to wipe a guys bottom. He relieved himself in a room which sole purpose is to go to the bathroom. Unless he peed on the counter or committed a random act of violence I dont see the issue. If there was no vandalism or physical harm, then I think we are over-reacting.

By the way, saying that a woman has the right to feel safe and not a man can also be sexist. Sexism works both ways here. Forcing someone to use the mens room when it makes them uncomfortable- well its similar to FORCING a one of us (FTM who are comfortable in the mens room) to use the female bathroom- it seems it would make some of us feel incredibly uncomfortable. People have the right to feel safe- men and women alike. Thats not abusive or sexist.

I'm just saying we are arguing that where a person relieves him/her self has become a gender issue because we (as in society) made it an issue. We seperated these rooms- and thats all they are really. They are just rooms with toilets and sinks- its purpose to go to the bathroom and wash our hands. Most of us have ones we our apartment and houses, and we share it with opposite genders just fine. We seperated them and said who can and who can't go in them. Why? Probably out of fear, I don't honestly know, I never did the research. Like I said previsouly, I'm the one all for family bathroom. There is no gender to them, and they save space, time, energy, and money.

Your totally right about the ones making the most noise about the mens room never used it. I am sorry to hear about your bathroom experience. I suppose I have been very lucky. I'm only devils advocate because not too long ago I was freaked about going into the mens room, and I had no indication that I shouldn't be either. Thankfully I have a really great set of friends and an ex girlfriend who helped me. I'm no longer like that, but I can understand it. Frankly, hes not here to defend himself, so none of us know why he was in there or how hes feeling.

And again I'm saying that if he REALLY did this for attention, then he got exactly what he wanted. Because guys like us are sitting around a computer after the fact talking/ debating about it.

[weatherboi]

Hey Cam-

I really suggest maybe you turn to some of your femme/female friends and speak with them about this. Most women I know find their bathroom space sacred. It can be a space for them to "go" to the bathroom yes, but many of the women I know use their bathroom space as a place to do many other "things" that don't involve just the stall and toilet paper. It is a private female place for them to relax. I also know that unlike us guys they are private in regards to the "going" experience. I once had a girl tell me the only thing missing in a womens restroom is sound effects so that people cant hear her going. Yes it is that private to them. So when a guy invades that female only space then it can be alarming and disenchanting to their experience. Guys/FtMs view going to the bathroom in a entirely different light. We go in, do the deed, and get out. The end.

It is not hard to understand with violence against women being as high as it is that when they see a guy/FtM enter into their scene, it is alarming at best for most of them. I am FtM that has done no physical transitioning yet I use the men's bathroom because I want to, it is where I am comfortable. I have seen the looks on women's faces when I enter that space and it makes me feel like I am invading their space and ya know what ??? I am!!! So I will never understand why a guy/FtM would choose to use a female bathroom.

Sexism and safety. I don't think we are over-reacting. There is a fine line here between being FtM and uncomfortable because of safety reasons and being FtM and asserting priviledge because fears can't be pushed passed. I feel he is asserting priviledge from a fearful place. The reality of it is his fluidity with being a guy should send him straight to the guys restroom. IMHO


I appretiate your posts but fear you are taking a nonchalant stance on the invasion of a female space that is no longer ours to have that attitude about.

Thanks in advance for considering what I have said!
Grant

Originally Posted by CamBAMF

Whoa hold on. I'm not saying men, (FTM or not) have the right to do ANYTHING they want because they are men. I simply comment on the fact there is a big issue with this particular gendered area for no ryhme or reason (of course this is my opinion).

I don't find that sexist, because I dont believe its just men. Its of no real consern of mine if a woman does her business in the male restroom or a guy relieves himself in the female bathroom. I'm not going to call security on a female in the mens room- and its not like females have NEVER used the mens room for one reason or another. But that doesn't make the news. Its not news worthy. It doesnt bother men (typically speaking). And thats just what I expect from decent humans beings- women and men. This isnt the right to vote. this isnt asking a female to wipe a guys bottom. He relieved himself in a room which sole purpose is to go to the bathroom. Unless he peed on the counter or committed a random act of violence I dont see the issue. If there was no vandalism or physical harm, then I think we are over-reacting.

By the way, saying that a woman has the right to feel safe and not a man can also be sexist. Sexism works both ways here. Forcing someone to use the mens room when it makes them uncomfortable- well its similar to FORCING a one of us (FTM who are comfortable in the mens room) to use the female bathroom- it seems it would make some of us feel incredibly uncomfortable. People have the right to feel safe- men and women alike. Thats not abusive or sexist.

I'm just saying we are arguing that where a person relieves him/her self has become a gender issue because we (as in society) made it an issue. We seperated these rooms- and thats all they are really. They are just rooms with toilets and sinks- its purpose to go to the bathroom and wash our hands. Most of us have ones we our apartment and houses, and we share it with opposite genders just fine. We seperated them and said who can and who can't go in them. Why? Probably out of fear, I don't honestly know, I never did the research. Like I said previsouly, I'm the one all for family bathroom. There is no gender to them, and they save space, time, energy, and money.

Your totally right about the ones making the most noise about the mens room never used it. I am sorry to hear about your bathroom experience. I suppose I have been very lucky. I'm only devils advocate because not too long ago I was freaked about going into the mens room, and I had no indication that I shouldn't be either. Thankfully I have a really great set of friends and an ex girlfriend who helped me. I'm no longer like that, but I can understand it. Frankly, hes not here to defend himself, so none of us know why he was in there or how hes feeling.

And again I'm saying that if he REALLY did this for attention, then he got exactly what he wanted. Because guys like us are sitting around a computer after the fact talking/ debating about it.

[CamBAMF]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Hey Cam-

I really suggest maybe you turn to some of your femme/female friends and speak with them about this. Most women I know find their bathroom space sacred. It can be a space for them to "go" to the bathroom yes, but many of the women I know use their bathroom space as a place to do many other "things" that don't involve just the stall and toilet paper. It is a private female place for them to relax. I also know that unlike us guys they are private in regards to the "going" experience. I once had a girl tell me the only thing missing in a womens restroom is sound effects so that people cant hear her going. Yes it is that private to them. So when a guy invades that female only space then it can be alarming and disenchanting to their experience. Guys/FtMs view going to the bathroom in a entirely different light. We go in, do the deed, and get out. The end.

It is not hard to understand with violence against women being as high as it is that when they see a guy/FtM enter into their scene, it is alarming at best for most of them. I am FtM that has done no physical transitioning yet I use the men's bathroom because I want to, it is where I am comfortable. I have seen the looks on women's faces when I enter that space and it makes me feel like I am invading their space and ya know what ??? I am!!! So I will never understand why a guy/FtM would choose to use a female bathroom.

Sexism and safety. I don't think we are over-reacting. There is a fine line here between being FtM and uncomfortable because of safety reasons and being FtM and asserting priviledge because fears can't be pushed passed. I feel he is asserting priviledge from a fearful place. The reality of it is his fluidity with being a guy should send him straight to the guys restroom. IMHO


I appretiate your posts but fear you are taking a nonchalant stance on the invasion of a female space that is no longer ours to have that attitude about.

Thanks in advance for considering what I have said!
Grant

I understand that. I mean I was female, I have girl friends, and I had them before transistioning. I know the going ons in public bathrooms. This sacred space is the nature of the beast in which society created.

In the UK (mind you this is not a first hand experience account) the law says anyone may use any public convenience, regardless of gender, provided that they are using it only for it's intended purpose.

It's not a female space- its a public space that was granted to females for reasons unnown- likely fear. Its not fair for any of us to say that a FTM has to push past thier fear to use the mensroom, but a female does not have to push past her fear to share the room. There is no privledge here. This action of relieving ones self made news somewhere. He wasn't let off because he was a guy- but I haven't heard a report on females entering males room. Like I said before, no one bats an eye if a female uses a males bathroom. I did when I was young, I've seen girl friends, and female family members use mens bathroom for different reason. You can not say a female bathroom is sacred space, but a male bathroom is fair game.

I feel like everyone is throwing the word sexism and safty but not seeing that these things work both ways. It is just as sexist to say a man/ftm can not go into a female bathroom because that is a sacred space to them- and they fear us, but its okay for them to come into the mens room. And its just as sexist to say a Ftm HAS to use the mens room (where they are uncomfortable- for safty reasons) because using the females room makes them uncomfortable-for safety reasons. Whos comfortability is worth more? Thats why I am for unisex/family bathroom. We are equally uncomfortable. no one has 'priviledge'.

Now, I am defending the FTM, but do not misunderstand me. I do not think it is right to make anyone- whatever gender feel uncomfrotable. No I do not want girls uncomfortable, but neither do I want my FTM brothern to feel uncomfrotable. I am not misogynistic by any stretch of the imagination. I am a huige supporter of womens rights, but only till they are equal to the male counterparts. No one is better then the other.

I do not work in gender. I don't do things now because its the guy thing. I never did things before transitioning because it was a girl thing. I am a human. I would in the plane of other decent moral humans. The right of feeling safe in public space is one shared by all genders. The right to relieve ones self is shared by all of nature. This has become an issue because we have split the two most popular genders' restrooms- an action that has created nothing but other issues on sexism combined with the rights of public space- all for safety purposes; which I'm sorry to say- just do not work.

Unisex bathrooms are the future... Thats all I'm saying.