Trans and Relationship's

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by June

Dylan -- You can retort back to me! And I do get what you are saying, I have seen that as well.

For me, when I am in this space, I operate on the assumption that we are all willing participants in the same broader community that we all create here. Not the .com, the people who choose to engage here. That may very well be coming from a place of Femme Privilege for me, I am a Femme in the Butch/Femme Spectrum. No one ever questions why I am here. (Well, perhaps some people wish I would sit down and shut up, but that's a whole 'nother issue!).

Yes, certain behaviors are called into question. For instance, it is well documented that I am not a fan of "I'm so Butch/Femme/Male that I never..." or if a man comes here and says "I'm only interested in straight women", that's problematic for me *here*. Now, if I was sitting across the table from a Transman and he said "I am only interested in straight women" that is different to me, because we are not necessarily in Queer Space. If I was single, and dating or thinking about dating said Man and they said that to me, I would be pretty affronted and probably respond with "Then baby, you are barking up the wrong tree, I'm not straight and even if we dated, I wouldn't be straight". That is me. I know that there are Femmes out there who have partnered with Transmen who do now consider themselves straight.

I hope that I have not come across as "telling" someone who they should or should not partner with, or beyond moderation, telling anyone how they should behave here. I am totally not snarking or yanking your chain when I ask you now for examples, because I think I know, but I don't want to presume I do for sure.

So, let me ask you then.

In re: to the part I've bolded.

A) If a cis woman comes on the site, IDs as queer, but is married to a cis-man, and has no interest in dating ANYONE (because she's happily partnered to her cismale partner)...do you have a problem with her being on the site?

I ask, because I don't consider whom someone is attracted to as relevant to how they ID for themselves, and whether or not that attraction makes or breaks their queerdom. What about butches who date other butches and aren't into femmes at all? Can they still be here? Or are they also an issue.

B) Does whomever One is attracted TO make or break their queer card? In other words, is One's queer identity dependent upon whomever they're interested in? Ergo, is one still queer if One dates, NO ONE?

C) Do YOU believe het people can be queer?


I'm Having A Hard Time Wording Exactly What I Want To Say, So I Lettered...Not Being Curt Or Terse,
Dylan

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by June

No, but I (as in me, June) would wonder if she wasn't questioning. I mean, we're all real fascinating, but couldn't she find the same types of conversations that are not gender oriented somewhere else that catered to straight, cis folks? Now, if she wanted to read and participate, I just don't want to police things that much, and besides, some of my best friends are both straight and cis. So no, I don't personally have a problem with it.

Here's the part that struck me as interesting. I never said anything about the woman IDing as straight. I purposely made no mention of her orientation. But you went ahead and assumed she would ID as straight. It's just interesting to me.

Originally Posted by June

In my personal opinion, Butches who date other Butches are Queer (as in Gay, part of this community because they choose to be here and participate) However they personally ID. So, while it is unlikely that a Butch who is into other Butches would come here and say "I am straight, but I am Butch and into other Butches" I guess, it could happen?

I don't find it unlikely at all that a male ID'd butch would be interested in dating female ID'd butches, and would/could consider that a straight relationship. Butches who date other butches aren't necessarily queer. Lots of different groups use the term butch.

Originally Posted by June

I think I was pretty clear in my example of a straight man wanting to date me and how I feel about my own personal Queerness, they will not make me straight, and in my own personal world, and I have said this before and it's real, real unpopular for some folks, if that man wants to date me, then they get all Queered up by me. And to be clear, any man I would ever date (as far as how I think/feel at this moment) would not be Cis or Straight. If I was single and dating no one, yeah, I would still be a Queer Femme.

Originally Posted by June

if a man comes here and says "I'm only interested in straight women", that's problematic for me *here*.

This is what I was specifically referring to...not the part about a date saying to you, personally, he was only into straight women.

I was wondering if One's partner makes/breaks their queer card. More specifically if a man's queer card gets taken away if he's only interested in dating straight women. If anyone's queer card gets taken away if they date NO ONE. Or if a femme's queer card gets taken away if she only dates men.
Is that problematic for you as well?

Originally Posted by June

I believe they are free to ID as Queer. Do I think they are Queer? No. Not if they are cis and straight. But it doesn't get me all overwrought if they do. It doesn't affect my life anymore than a straight, cis woman married to a straight, cis man does by claiming Femme. Some people do get really worked up over that though.

So, het, cis people can't be queer? Are you saying then that there's no queer communities in the het world? No matter how a person IDs for themselves, you still consider them NOT queer? But, if someone is trans, they're still queer even if they ID as straight? Would it be problematic for you if that straight, cis woman who claimed Femme participated on this site?

I'm not trying to be a pain in one's rear, and I see this as completely on topic...I guess Sam is the boss of that tho. I'm quite interested in having this conversation also (the one Sam presented), and I think breaking it down is a good way of understanding.

And I swear, if the weather weren't so gross outside, I would immediately get offline and ask no more questions for the whole day.

I really have to go do some stuff! I will get back later if I can, and I hope this is not derailing Sam's intent. And also, I hope it's not looking like the June and Dylan show here, my apologies if it does, and you know, Dylan and I can go get a room somewhere and hash this out. [/QUOTE]

Maybe we should make sock puppets?


Dylan

[Sam]

Its all good, its conversation in all variations.

Opinions are fascinating.

[Gayla]

I do love it that y'all make me think about the why's of the ways I think.

For me, "queer" is about the attraction/behavior factor. I guess I see anything outside the norm as being queer so, yes, I know heterosexual people who are queer and I know gay people who are not queer. That's partially me slapping my own label on people and partially the label they choose for themselves.

I think being butch/femme/trans is not, in and of itself queer as much as our attraction to others outside the "normal" spectrum of what is expected somehow queers us. I have many friends who are female ID'd lesbians attracted to other female ID'd lesbians. They do not ID as butch or femme. This is kind of the normal, expected version of lesbian relationships so I don't really see them as queer and most of them don't see themselves that way and many of them are horrified at the word. On the other hand, I know a ton of people who ID as heterosexual but have attractions to / interactions with people in very queer ways.

I think, for me, "queer" is in many ways tied to kink so, based on my reference points, anything that may be seen as "kinky" to the outside world would be seen as "queer" to me. This would include not only people involved in specific BDSM activities but anything else that is viewed as outside the norm for those individuals.

As to some of Dylan's questions, I know several women who are married to cismen and ID as heterosexual who hang out on b-f websites and a couple who hang out in b-f and/or primarily gay kink space in real time. The specific circumstances of their relationships are not my business but if this is where they feel comfortable and what they consider their community, I'm not one to tell them the don't "belong" based on their current relationship. For me, this would go back to the part about individual ID's not being based on who someone is partnered with.

Personally, it would feel a little icky for someone who ID's as a heterosexual male, and does not see themselves as queer in any way, to be here for the purpose of meeting a potential partner (whether that's for a relationship, dating or sex.)

I tried to think this out but I doubt I did a very good job of it really. So, I reserve the right to come back later and completely contradict myself if questioned!

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by gayla

I do love it that y'all make me think about the why's of the ways I think.

For me, "queer" is about the attraction/behavior factor. I guess I see anything outside the norm as being queer so, yes, I know heterosexual people who are queer and I know gay people who are not queer. That's partially me slapping my own label on people and partially the label they choose for themselves.

I think being butch/femme/trans is not, in and of itself queer as much as our attraction to others outside the "normal" spectrum of what is expected somehow queers us. I have many friends who are female ID'd lesbians attracted to other female ID'd lesbians. They do not ID as butch or femme. This is kind of the normal, expected version of lesbian relationships so I don't really see them as queer and most of them don't see themselves that way and many of them are horrified at the word. On the other hand, I know a ton of people who ID as heterosexual but have attractions to / interactions with people in very queer ways.

I think, for me, "queer" is in many ways tied to kink so, based on my reference points, anything that may be seen as "kinky" to the outside world would be seen as "queer" to me. This would include not only people involved in specific BDSM activities but anything else that is viewed as outside the norm for those individuals.

As to some of Dylan's questions, I know several women who are married to cismen and ID as heterosexual who hang out on b-f websites and a couple who hang out in b-f and/or primarily gay kink space in real time. The specific circumstances of their relationships are not my business but if this is where they feel comfortable and what they consider their community, I'm not one to tell them the don't "belong" based on their current relationship. For me, this would go back to the part about individual ID's not being based on who someone is partnered with.

Personally, it would feel a little icky for someone who ID's as a heterosexual male, and does not see themselves as queer in any way, to be here for the purpose of meeting a potential partner (whether that's for a relationship, dating or sex.)

I tried to think this out but I doubt I did a very good job of it really. So, I reserve the right to come back later and completely contradict myself if questioned!

I too know a number of het folks who not only ID as queer, but who are also more *culturally* queer than some other queers I know.

But then, I think I view *queer* in the same manner as you're expressing here. I (me,me,me) DO think het folks can be queer. I don't think *queer* is only for gays/lesbians/bisexuals. I mean, I know het people in the poly community who take a lot of flack from the straight world. I also know some het kinkers and some het swingers. Some of the ID as (het) queer and some don't.

What I think is funny (not ha ha) is that *most* people are ok with allowing a cis het woman who's married come on and stuff, and wouldn't have *too* much of an issue with it, but people *would* have an issue with a het guy coming onto the site.

I, me personally, am cool with anyone who IDs as queer or considers themselves *culturally* queer enough to not be an offensive asshole. I don't remember any cis, straight men ever being on the either site making an ass of himself...but I DO remember a couple cis, straight women being on the (old) site being over privileged assholes saying whatever they wanted.

So, it's just interesting to me.


Dylan

[Gayla]

I'm sure there are a number of cis heterosexual ID's people of both genders on both/all sites. I don't know everyone and I really don't know those who are not active or vocal. There are a lot of lurkers.

Personally, and pardon the graphic nature, but I don't think it gets much queerer then a straight guy with a transman's fist up his ass. Queer is as queer does? Which then makes me wonder if I have a scale of queer. I think I do because I often rate things as being "more" or "less" queer the way I just did. That's a tangent that is way off topic, sorry.

Just to clarify, as no offense was intended in my previous post and I was speaking about my own thoughts/feelings/judgements in an honest way from the gayla space. I have never, and will never, say that anyone "shouldn't" be here on this site, or any site, for any reason. That was kind of the point of my post. Your individual ID and reasons for wanting to be included in this community are really none of my business and I will never use them as some type of scale for determining who belongs and who doesn't. With the exception of the obvious trollers/spammers, I think everyone has right to be here if they want to be.

That being said, it would feel "icky" to me mostly because I wouldn't really understand why someone who ID's as a non-queer, heterosexual male and is not interested in becoming involved with anyone other then non-queer ID'ing heterosexual women, would come to this site in search of a partner. That "icky"-ness would be based on my own history of interactions with straight guys who think lesbians are just for their entertainment or for "conquering". I do not have any issue with non-queer, heterosexual male ID'ing individuals being involved on the site, or in b-f/gay community in general if it's a place they feel comfortable and included and feel like they belong.

I also have absolutely no issues at all (cannot state this emphatically enough without it sounding like one of those "my best friends are..." kind things) with transmen, FTM's, GQ, etc. individuals being on the site or in b-f space ever and I don't think I implied that in any way in my previous post. If that was how it came across or I somehow implied that without realizing it, please accept my apology and know that I will try much harder in the future not to say anything that may be read that way.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by gayla

I'm sure there are a number of cis heterosexual ID's people of both genders on both/all sites. I don't know everyone and I really don't know those who are not active or vocal. There are a lot of lurkers.

Personally, and pardon the graphic nature, but I don't think it gets much queerer then a straight guy with a transman's fist up his ass. Queer is as queer does? Which then makes me wonder if I have a scale of queer. I think I do because I often rate things as being "more" or "less" queer the way I just did. That's a tangent that is way off topic, sorry.

Just to clarify, as no offense was intended in my previous post and I was speaking about my own thoughts/feelings/judgements in an honest way from the gayla space. I have never, and will never, say that anyone "shouldn't" be here on this site, or any site, for any reason. That was kind of the point of my post. Your individual ID and reasons for wanting to be included in this community are really none of my business and I will never use them as some type of scale for determining who belongs and who doesn't. With the exception of the obvious trollers/spammers, I think everyone has right to be here if they want to be.

That being said, it would feel "icky" to me mostly because I wouldn't really understand why someone who ID's as a non-queer, heterosexual male and is not interested in becoming involved with anyone other then non-queer ID'ing heterosexual women, would come to this site in search of a partner. That "icky"-ness would be based on my own history of interactions with straight guys who think lesbians are just for their entertainment or for "conquering". I do not have any issue with non-queer, heterosexual male ID'ing individuals being involved on the site, or in b-f/gay community in general if it's a place they feel comfortable and included and feel like they belong.

I also have absolutely no issues at all (cannot state this emphatically enough without it sounding like one of those "my best friends are..." kind things) with transmen, FTM's, GQ, etc. individuals being on the site or in b-f space ever and I don't think I implied that in any way in my previous post. If that was how it came across or I somehow implied that without realizing it, please accept my apology and know that I will try much harder in the future not to say anything that may be read that way.

I wasn't saying I read you as offensive at all. I apologize if I somehow implied that. I really didn't think that.

It's just interesting to me that a cis, straight male is seen as 'more suspect' (?) than a cis, straight female. That's all I was saying.

So, that part is just interesting to me. And you're definitely not the only person to express that.

Fairly recently, Firie and I were having a conversation about a het-queer acquaintance of ours. He's part of the queer community because he's poly. He's extremely privileged in so many arenas (class, white, read as straight, male, able-bodied), and he says the stupidest shit. Firie asked me if I thought he should be 'allowed' on the site. I think he should be 'allowed' on the site. But I also know he'd be gone after his first or second post, because he'd say something incredibly stupid.

But then, I have other friends who don't ID as queer, but who are more *culturally* queer than some queer people I know.

But I would question ANYONE who ID'd as straight and had no tie to the queer community coming around voicing their opinions about shit.

I mean, it's a queer website, and if you're not *affiliated*, I could really give a rip about your opinions...yanno what I'm sayin?


Dylan

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by Dylan

What I think is funny (not ha ha) is that *most* people are ok with allowing a cis het woman who's married come on and stuff, and wouldn't have *too* much of an issue with it, but people *would* have an issue with a het guy coming onto the site.

I said it, in relation to the thread topic, in the context of ...looking for a partner. But yeah, I think that if a cis het guy were on the site, with no connection to the community other then google, and vocal about that ID, it would be an issue.

I think many of us have been socialize towards the "straight guys are creepy in queer space" kinda thing. At the same time, I think we are much more tolerant of females in general no matter their ID, biology, or background. And yes, I totally own the sexism that is inherent in both of those statements. Recognizing it for what it is doesn't change the fact that it is.

[Random]

Originally Posted by Dylan

What I think is funny (not ha ha) is that *most* people are ok with allowing a cis het woman who's married come on and stuff, and wouldn't have *too* much of an issue with it, but people *would* have an issue with a het guy coming onto the site.

Dylan

For me there is a difference..

A cis het woman who is married may be questioning her sexuality and may be here to learn, to see if this is her community..

I used to be one of those, so to me her coming to question makes sense..

A cis het guy could not say the same thing in the same way... I would question a cis het guywho was questioning his sexuality joining a site where the predominate members are gay/queer woman (cis and trans) or guys who were born biologically female. I would think that he would visit male gay sites.

I would have issues with a cis het guy coming in and demanding space here.. I mean, left freaking face it.. The world is their playground.. Our space is pretty precious to me...

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by June

Dylan -- Who is saying that? Did you read me as saying it? Or have you experienced others saying it? Your use of *most* is confusing to me. Was there a poll or survey I missed?

I read gayla as saying that

You said, you'd read a cis married woman as 'questioning'.

You also said it would be problematic to you if a there were a (straight) man on the site who was only into straight women

Comments have been made all over both sites throughout the years

Met said it in a thread not that long ago...can't remember the thread...maybe the expectations thread? I'll find it.

Seriously, it's been said in the past. Additionally, whenever the idea of hets on the site comes up, it *usually* (and honestly, I can only remember one exception, right now and that was OBB saying married women are not lesbians) turns into a conversation about how the site will be 'invaded' by straight men being pigs.

I don't know how One would poll it...I don't even know how to make a poll. Hell, I don't even know if my membership lets me make a poll. Too bad we couldn't do it now without unbiased answers based on this thread.


Dylan

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Dylan

What I think is funny (not ha ha) is that *most* people are ok with allowing a cis het woman who's married come on and stuff, and wouldn't have *too* much of an issue with it, but people *would* have an issue with a het guy coming onto the site.

Dylan

Just for the record... yep except it wasn't really about straight men, but a response to you're questions why does the community use the word "transman" instead of man when referring to men of trans experience and also why femmes may be attracted to transmen but not cis straight men.

Originally Posted by Me from the "expectations thread"

Who belongs here? Anyone who feels like they belong here and feel a connection to these things in what-ever way.

That said there aren't any men who aren't of a trans experience here (that I know of nor have I seen any before), not because it's law but because they don't feel any connection apparently. Perhaps this is part the reason a few femmes feel a connection to transmen and not other men. Maybe sometimes, it's really a lot simpler motive (rather than making a distinction of traits) or what-ever when people make the distinction of transman rather than man... even just that some peeps be making things clearer for their own personal reasons b/c some might wonder why there's a man of non-trans experience on the site if they never mention he's of trans experience?

Ok, that's outta the way...

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by June

I would stick my neck out (put the damn hatchett down!) and say that the VAST majority of Femme's who participate on this site are NOT interested in the attention of straight, cis men. Now, there may be some Bi Femmes who are, and that's fine, but this site is not geared towards Bi cis women hooking up with Bi cis men. Can we agree to that?

And I really need you (since no one else is questioning my intent) to understand what I am saying about men who have left our community in search of straight women, failed and came back after having loudly announcing they were only interested in STRAIGHT women. And yeah, I have seen it, and yeah, it pisses me the fuck off because it implies that Femme's are 2nd rate and less desireable, and that is not okay behavior to me. And I feel really strongly about this one piece, which is why I am taking the time to clarify.

Well, here's the thing, I would wonder why any straight ID'd person who wants nothing to do with the queer community would be here.

But why why why is it only assumed that very few femmes here would be interested? What about butches or transguys? Do they count? Or is it just about the assumption that femmes wouldn't be interested? Why is there NO assumption at all about what butches or transguys would be interested in?

And again, why is it assumed a man would only be interested in femmes? Perhaps that man is interested in butches?

I'm just curious about these repeated assumptions...in a queer community.

Also, why is it more acceptable if say a cis woman were to come here *questioning* her sexuality, but it's not ok if a man is here questioning *his* sexuality?

You said yourself if a cis woman married to a cis man were to come here, you're assumption would be (not that she IDs as queer, but) that she's 'questioning'. What if she made a few stupid comments while she were here *testing out the waters* or *questioning* her shit?

Now, I'm seriously NOT condoning anyone making stupid comments, and I've seen some of the comments re: straight women. I'm not condoning that. I am saying that I don't think One's queer ID has necessarily something to do with whom One is interested in partnering with.

I mean, frankly, I don't understand wanting to be on a queer site if you don't ID with the queer community. But again, I'm just really (truly) intrigued by some of the assumptions.


Dylan...I feel like we're starting to talk in circles.