Respect of Femme Sensabilities

[waxnrope]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I go with intent.....

I read intent in the words, there are some under currents no one knows about nor are you going to know about it.

I don't mind sexual wording, what I do mind is anyone asserting themselves over me, especially when it's a place where people are going to be vulnerable.

Sexual undertones don't hurt me I am no delicate flower, so that's just me.

I understand about "intent", but how can we understand another's intent without inquiry? I don't mean the intent of someone with whom we've had ongoing battles ... personality clashes and the like ... rather, the intent of a hapless "Joe"/"Josephine" who has the temerity to just say something that is unwittingly forbidden or just disliked?

How do we know another's vulnerable places unless we are told ... or we step on or trip over them?

Let me retain my image of you as delicate flower ... and I am not asserting myself "over" you by saying this. I get that you are alpha. You say this about yourself. My leg is not raised at all, so to speak. I am simply using a little bit of humor to lighten the convo... and extending a hand to you.

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by waxnrope

I understand about "intent", but how can we understand another's intent without inquiry? I don't mean the intent of someone with whom we've had ongoing battles ... personality clashes and the like ... rather, the intent of a hapless "Joe"/"Josephine" who has the temerity to just say something that is unwittingly forbidden or just disliked?
the problem lies in the person that stated the comment and them being humble enough to take accountablity for being an asshat. like when i made the mistake of posting in the Tap thread.oy vey did we cause a ruckus. but i took accountablity for being an asshat.

How do we know another's vulnerable places unless we are told ... or we step on or trip over them?

well refrain from saying inappropriate things to people that we dont have that type of relationship with and that will help. humor can be inappropriate also so tread lightly. just because it has a puchline doesnt make it ok to say.

Let me retain my image of you as delicate flower ... and I am not asserting myself "over" you by saying this.
so tell me if she says she is no delicate flower why is it so important to you to keep her in this light for yourself?? does it make you more comfortable when dealing with her?? personally i think it is dismissive to her statement.

I get that you are alpha. You say this about yourself. My leg is not raised at all, so to speak. I am simply using a little bit of humor to lighten the convo... and extending a hand to you.
see this kind of humor i don't find funny and try to steer clear of when approaching a person that i dont know. just a rule of respect to others i follow.

waxnrope i apologize in advance if you take me as harsh but i do see a double standard but it isnt in what Snow did or said...it is in all the reactions surrounding her handling of Sam.

[The_Lady_Snow]

How about someone ask fucking Snow how she wants to be seen, and not just fucking assume..

I am NOT a fucking flower.

I use profanity

watch

FUCK FUCK FUCK

Damn

My fucking answers to Sam were not about my delicate state, I thought I was fucking clear when I handled it..

For fucks sake, I can't fucking believe that is all anyone got from the thread I started

UNFUCKING believeable.

[waxnrope]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

How about someone ask fucking Snow how she wants to be seen, and not just fucking assume..

I am NOT a fucking flower.

I use profanity

watch

FUCK FUCK FUCK

Damn

My fucking answers to Sam were not about my delicate state, I thought I was fucking clear when I handled it..

For fucks sake, I can't fucking believe that is all anyone got from the thread I started

UNFUCKING believeable.

this is not all that I got from your thread, Lady Snow. I have sent you messages on your rep that indicate this. the flower was a joke and I did not/do not find it something offensive, but used it as a bit of irony, a turn of what you have stated about yourself. I do not know if I can explain it better. It was NOT intended to hurt you or make you angry. To the contrary, it was to make you shake your head and grin. Sorry that it did not do that and you are frustrated about it. As you said in your post, it is intention, and you apparently saw mal intent where none was intended.

[Jett]

Despite you apparently good intention, ironically threads like these create an image in peeps heads that butches are all spit and ball scratching and need to be told how to behave in front of "the ladies" and femmes need a butch to speak up for them.

Seriously I already know how to interact with folks, femme, butch or transpeople, het people... any people. Shit I've never even read the TOS on sites because at this point in life hopefully we know where the hell the lines are (I did read the TOS here coming on as a mod of course).

*doesn't go around woot-wooting at womens asses, or head butting my buddies while burping the alphabet real life either*
Metro

[UofMfan]

MODERATING:

I can see this thread is heading in the direction I was afraid it would head.

I am about to close down this thread as it has turned out to be a personal vendetta, just like I saw it form the get go.


People, if you have personal issues to iron out, please do so PRIVATELY, do not use threads to get throw in those jabs and think it is going to go under the radar, It isn't!

[Lynn]

I guess I am stuck at the notion of "femme sensibility" being a lady thing that must be protected by someone more masculine than I. It just feels sexist to me. While I may be feminine and appear to be a lady (to the world, maybe to you), these are attributes of mine. They are qualities that reflect something about me. They aren't ME. I'm a small, soft-spoken woman who says "fuck" a lot. And other things which might affect your sensibilities, whatever they may be.

If I don't like how I'm spoken to, I am likely to say something. I hope you would do the same. But, I don't ask people to change to suit me. I may prefer to be in an environment where people mainly treat each other as they would like to be treated, but I don't need or want anyone watching out for my delicate linguistic constitution. In fact, the idea of it is more off-putting to me than using any particular word in any particular context. What is validating and empowering is when I am given the space to respond the way I honestly feel, and where you (the general you) show respect for what I say.

[Gayla]

I tend to adjust my behavior, language, etc. based on what I'm doing and who I'm doing it with. I guess I've never thought of this as some weird thing, rather as just basic social skills and respect.

Sometimes I say bad words, use more slang and end sentences with prepositions and other times I don't. And yes, it's totally based on the people involved. Not because I think someone may not be able to "handle" it or that I, in some icky, fucked up way, must "protect" them but just because sometimes it's not appropriate. I'm not going to speak the same way to a client that I would to someone here. I also don't speak to everyone here the same because I don't have the same level of familiarity. I may say something to oblivia that I would never say to Nat or something to Corkey that I'd never say to Hack. I think it's all about social skills, respect levels and appropriateness.

I don't think that I adjust my language much differently around femmes although there probably is a little bit of subconscious old schoolness going on that I'm not fully aware of. I think that's probably more of a respect thing then a protection thing, but I'll have to think about that.

I also don't think I've ever felt the urge to go rushing into a thread out of a need to defend a femme. I don't know any that can't defend themselves.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I go with intent.....

I read intent in the words, there are some under currents no one knows about nor are you going to know about it.

Originally Posted by waxnrope

I understand about "intent", but how can we understand another's intent without inquiry? I don't mean the intent of someone with whom we've had ongoing battles ... personality clashes and the like ... rather, the intent of a hapless "Joe"/"Josephine" who has the temerity to just say something that is unwittingly forbidden or just disliked?

How do we know another's vulnerable places unless we are told ... or we step on or trip over them?

Hey, waxnrope.

I know nothing about Snow and Sam's history, but my guess is that they have one.

I am also guessing that her response is based on that history. So, for all I know, it could be a very appropriate response. Or, it could not make any sense to me. I don't know.

From my vantage point this thread was started by rlin (correct me if I am wrong, rlin), b/c she/he/hy assumed that there was no connection and no history.

My point is, the above statement by Snow tells me that I don't know jack shit what the subtext is from that interaction.

I am wondering if maybe you are approaching this from the assumption that there is no history here?

As a side note, I really think it is pretty funky to take a post from one thread and start a new thread on it (without permission). Especially when it is about someone. I know you are new here, rlin (and I absolutely believe you when you say you have good intentions), but I just wanted to say this in general.

[little man]

wouldn't it have been easier (on all concerned) to censure sam privately, as the rest of us had no clue what was going on? i read him as using the phrase in the context snow had originally posted it. forum would be easier to wade through if private beefs stayed private.

[MsDemeanor]

Originally Posted by little man

forum would be easier to wade through if private beefs stayed private.

Yeah, but the entertainment value for the rest of us would plunge.

[little man]

good manners never go out of style. or so my grandma always told me.

once we've established personal friendships with people, we learn what their tolerances are for ribald humor and profanity and what kind of porn they like. until we've established a personal relationship with someone, we should show the respect we'd like to have shown us upon initial contact.

i don't like the *wink-wink, nudge-nudge* stuff in my day to day life. the friends i have do not engage in that behavior with me. i swear like a sailor and know when to curb it...in polite company. i do have decent manners and exercise them regularly.

i don't, however, think that femmes, females, women are entitled to *more* respect than anyone else. we all should have a sense of decency and propriety that we operate under. vulgarity is just plain unattractive.

this may even make sense outside my head.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Once again

Snow is quite fucking happy with the way she handled her situation with Sam. If ya don't like the way I use profanity, I don't know what to tell ya.. *I* as a femme am not asking anything be cleaned up on my delicate account. I am comfortable for asking someone not to take a friendly tone when we aren't tight like that cause frankly that is how this whole fucking thread came about.

So the OP's intent is for femme's to be talked to in a more delicate manner, *I* for one don't need that, I am not going to wilt nor run to the altar kneel and say 33 hail mary's.

Not how *I* roll

[MsDemeanor]

*crosses 'pedestal upon which delicate femme may be displayed' off list of possible birthday gifts for Snow*

[evolveme]

Unrelated to the topic, except kinda not:

Are people generally more offended when they hear/read femmes/feminine people cussin' and a'swearin' than when they hear/read masculine people doing it? How about in the referencing of sex/use of vulgarity, generally?

I just wonder what y'all think.

[PearlsNLace]

I dont know if it makes me a delicate flower..

( I really dont see myself as one, but opinions are like sets of skin. We all have one)


I curse sometimes. But Id rather not be hanging out in an environment where every other word that comes out of someones mouth is a F*cken mother F*cker, or worse.
And I dont really care whos mouth its comming out of. A femmes, a butchs, or paphigleos for that matter.

It doesnt offend delicate sensibilities. I just feel akward and out of place in such a conversation.

I get in places in my life when I feel less articulate and the cussing increases. That usually passes when I figure out what issue Im struggling with at the time. It can take a week or 2 for me to sort it all out.

I believe I treat people with respect and dignity. I would like to be treated similarly. And I dont feel that its different across the butch femme spectrum.

That being said- there is a bit of The Dance, of being treated with extra courtesy specifically because I am a lady, that does thrill me.

I will freely admit it. I love it. If those are silly old antiquated rules, Im ok with that. If that makes me a delicate flower, well, then fine. Ill be a an Orange Poppy, my home states flower then.


I dont believe such a desire to be treated with a degree of decorum and respect makes me any more or less awesome. Nor does the lack of such desire for that treatment make anyone more or less awesome. We just roll different ways.

[rlin]

when i put this thread out here i was seriously most interested in how the fact that we knew each other vicariously thru the forum might cause us to use over-familiarity when addressing folks around here...
but... i was also obviously thinking of how [we] tend to posture when we want to connect...
i am happy to see that i have all kindsa opinions to sift thru and learn from... that is the point of this post... so that i can learn... that is why i come to this forum... to learn...

i used a quote from a public forum using very little background from the conversation it came from... i did this because i found these words as a stand-alone to be compelling... i wanted to discuss this phenomena

i want to publicly apologize to Lady Snow for opening her up to conversation... i can plead the fact that i am but... in actuality i am really more obviously a dumbass... i honestly didnt even consider the fact that folks would take this anywhere other than what i spoke of in my opener... i thought we would speak of language...

i sincerely apologize to you Ma'am... if you can think of a way that i can make this palatable for you... i will give it my damndest to do so...


rlin

[Sam]

There is NO History between Snow and I. Can you get off the subject now?

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hey, waxnrope.

I know nothing about Snow and Sam's history, but my guess is that they have one.

I am also guessing that her response is based on that history. So, for all I know, it could be a very appropriate response. Or, it could not make any sense to me. I don't know.

From my vantage point this thread was started by rlin (correct me if I am wrong, rlin), b/c she/he/hy assumed that there was no connection and no history.

My point is, the above statement by Snow tells me that I don't know jack shit what the subtext is from that interaction.

I am wondering if maybe you are approaching this from the assumption that there is no history here?

As a side note, I really think it is pretty funky to take a post from one thread and start a new thread on it (without permission). Especially when it is about someone. I know you are new here, rlin (and I absolutely believe you when you say you have good intentions), but I just wanted to say this in general.

Way too many opinions flashing around, that has nothing to do with this thread.