school experiences for trans folks

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I understand what you're saying.

I'm just saying the parents already know. The kid didn't just pop up ONLY at school saying this. The kid has said this at home, probably for years. If the kid isn't talking about how the parents know about this, the parents aren't cool with it.

I got a ten spot says the parents don't handle the phone call well, and get pissed at the school, and nix the plan. This will also make it more difficult for the kid. When really, what's it matter what line the kid stands in?


Dylan

Dylan,

I take no issue with the fact that the parents already know--and that the child has probably--explicitly--stated their gender to their parents.

However, it isn't just about the line--and whose standing in it--this issue will progress from the line, to the loo, to names (perhaps?), etc.

If one step is taken (to put them in the line they prefer), others will have to follow.

That child WILL come home and say that at SCHOOL they are allowed to be do this or that, be called this or that, (etc.). THAT is when the shit will hit the fan that the school has been making decisions WITHOUT the parent(s)' knowledge.

It will not just stop at letting the child go into a certain gender line division. And, if Softness' daughter is referring to this child with female pronouns without the parent's consent? You think THAT is going to go over well? It isn't and Softness' daughter needs to be aware that she is putting her job in jeopardy by making these decisions without Administrative AND parental support.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Dylan,

I take no issue with the fact that the parents already know--and that the child has probably--explicitly--stated their gender to their parents.

However, it isn't just about the line--and whose standing in it--this issue will progress from the line, to the loo, to names (perhaps?), etc.

If one step is taken (to put them in the line they prefer), others will have to follow.

That child WILL come home and say that at SCHOOL they are allowed to be do this or that, be called this or that, (etc.). THAT is when the shit will hit the fan that the school has been making decisions WITHOUT the parent(s)' knowledge.

It will not just stop at letting the child go into a certain gender line division. And, if Softness' daughter is referring to this child with female pronouns without the parent's consent? You think THAT is going to go over well? It isn't and Softness' daughter needs to be aware that she is putting her job in jeopardy by making these decisions without Administrative AND parental support.

Again, I totally get your point.

Do you really think this kid is stupid enough to run home and say, "At school, I stand in the girls' line?" I'm sure my second grade teacher would hav e gotten in trouble for letting me sit on the boys' side...right after I got a major ass beating. Hence the reason I never told my mother what went on at school. By second grade, transkids know very well how to walk the tightrope with their parents.

The Teacher Can Avoid Pronouns Now, But What's She Going To Do When The Parents Say No Way And Demand She Treat Randy Like A Boy?,
Dylan

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Again, I totally get your point.

Do you really think this kid is stupid enough to run home and say, "At school, I stand in the girls' line?" I'm sure my second grade teacher would hav e gotten in trouble for letting me sit on the boys' side...right after I got a major ass beating. Hence the reason I never told my mother what went on at school. By second grade, transkids know very well how to walk the tightrope with their parents.

The Teacher Can Avoid Pronouns Now, But What's She Going To Do When The Parents Say No Way And Demand She Treat Randy Like A Boy?,
Dylan

I see your points as well, Dylan.

I just think that things have a way of making themselves known and, even if the child doesn't make the parents aware that the school is acknowledging her, other parents or teachers WILL make it known to the parents.

It is a no win situation for a teacher to acknowledge a child's gender without parental knowledge.

If I was teaching a teenager and referred to him as he (despite birth assigned sex); that teenager does NOT tell (due to their awareness of parental negative consequences) but I would have to KNOW that there are SO many other ways the parents WILL find out--a friend will tell, another parent, another teacher, meetings, church, GOSSIP. *Ms. so and so refers to your daughter as Sam!...did you know that ? *

If I don't get the principal AND school board backing and parental support (!)-- my job is in real jeopardy and this is in a country that has far more rights when it comes to these situations.

[Gayla]

I understand the legal stuff, I really do. Married to a teacher for a long time, etc. etc. so I totally get it.

I read that the child has a gender neutral name so I don't think the teacher has "changed" the child's name. I'm not sure if the teacher has changed pronouns or if the OP did that simple out of respect.

I think there are ways to be inclusive in a classroom environment without the risks. Yes, there are guidelines, but there is also quite a bit of freedom within each classroom. Things like mixing up the lines not on gender, etc. Just the fact that the teacher is at all aware gender issues like this even exist is going to give this student, and all of them really, an advantage.

And maybe, when any of these children get to the next grade level and with a new teacher they may say, "Ms. X didn't make us line up as boys and girls, we just got to line up as people."

I also have to say that I think the level of fear that we experience over doing something "wrong" often keeps very simple things from changing for the good. I would really hate to see her stop doing things that empower all the children in her classroom out of fear that how she interacts with one child may get her in "trouble".

[Soon]

Originally Posted by gayla

I understand the legal stuff, I really do. Married to a teacher for a long time, etc. etc. so I totally get it.

I read that the child has a gender neutral name so I don't think the teacher has "changed" the child's name. I'm not sure if the teacher has changed pronouns or if the OP did that simple out of respect.

I think there are ways to be inclusive in a classroom environment without the risks. Yes, there are guidelines, but there is also quite a bit of freedom within each classroom. Things like mixing up the lines not on gender, etc. Just the fact that the teacher is at all aware gender issues like this even exist is going to give this student, and all of them really, an advantage.

And maybe, when any of these children get to the next grade level and with a new teacher they may say, "Ms. X didn't make us line up as boys and girls, we just got to line up as people."

I also have to say that I think the level of fear that we experience over doing something "wrong" often keeps very simple things from changing for the good. I would really hate to see her stop doing things that empower all the children in her classroom out of fear that how she interacts with one child may get her in "trouble".

I don't want to make Softness' daughter afraid of building an empowering environment for children.

Gayla, you are right there are ways to build inclusivity without opening oneself up to potential trouble (for teacher and future teachers who may not *get* it).

However, if major adjustments are being made without the parents and staff of a school being made aware (this can include social worker, guidance, and administration), it can be a potential issue.


It is possible to be gender neutral in many ways when designing activities and approaching student's; however, if it is getting into serious long term decisions then the school needs to be informed.

And, I think SuperFemme makes a really valuable contribution in that it will not be fair for one teacher to be accepting of this child and then to be levelled by their next year teacher who refuses to acknowledge any aspect of that child's internal sense of themselves.

[Dylan]

One teacher being cool is better than NO teachers being cool.

Transkids by this age have already figured out that the whole world doesn't get it.

It's the ones who are cool who make the difference


Dylan

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by Dylan

One teacher being cool is better than NO teachers being cool.

Transkids by this age have already figured out that the whole world doesn't get it.

It's the ones who are cool who make the difference


Dylan

I really wish I could thank you for this more than once.

I remember the cool teachers and I remember the really awful teachers but I don't much recall all of the mediocre, down the middle, play by the rules, didn't make a difference teachers.

The make a difference one's, they made it a point to make sure that I (and probably every one else in their classes) knew I was special to them in some way. It wasn't a huge thing like what's happening in this classroom but it was enough that it got me through the bad teachers.

I can only imagine the impact that this teacher is having on that student.

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by Dylan

One teacher being cool is better than NO teachers being cool.

Transkids by this age have already figured out that the whole world doesn't get it.

It's the ones who are cool who make the difference

Dylan

I agree.

I am a high school teacher, so the issues are different. Also, we talk more explicitly about sex and gender and sexual orientation than I expect in an elementary school. I don't think we always do a great job, but at least it's on the table. There have been several young people who choose gender neutral versions of their names, or who dress in a way that is commonly associated with young men if they are female or young women if they are male. I would never mention this to a parent, though if I thought there was a need, I would certainly check in with their counselor. There are so many ways we impose gender on young people. I don't think any of us have any idea if we haven't made a concerted effort to check in with ourselves. Very few people do that, even the small subset of people here.

[Soft*Silver]

I should point out that this is a SUMMER school..not associated with the public school system. It is at a child care center and offers higher grade classes (up to 5th grade) during the summer for working parents.

Its actually the perfect first job for my daughter as a new teacher. She is getting her feet wet in a classroom of her own, with a small number of students in a much more informal setting that a public school. She has daily meetings with the principal and a few of the other teachers (some are teachers from public schools who work there during the summer) have taken her under their wings.

I also have thought about Randy and her apparent comfortableness about her gender ID. She isnt at all fearful of talking about it or asking for her needs to be met. And she is accepting of what my daughter can and cant do for her. So I am thinking she must have some source of acceptance being given to her at home.


I will tell you more when I get to talk to my daughter again...

and again, thank you for all the feedback, suggestions and reps!

[Andrew, Jr.]

For me, it is very hard to relate to a kind teacher. I just remember the teachers I had confided in, and laughed in my face, or would not let me use the boys bathroom, or play kickball or dodgeball with the boys.

In summer school, remember I went to summer school all grades, each and every summer because of my learning disabilities and failing in school. It was a requirement in order to get me thru to the next grade. In other words, I was just passed along for someone else to deal with.

When I confided in teachers with my heart and soul. I thought I was doing the right thing. I never would have thought that it would have blown up in my face as it did. I never would have opened my mouth had I had known that.

If you saw the movie "Blind Side", I am like the simple Michael Oher. But I am not gifted with forgetting the past as he is. I wish I had that.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by softness

I also have thought about Randy and her apparent comfortableness about her gender ID. She isnt at all fearful of talking about it or asking for her needs to be met. And she is accepting of what my daughter can and cant do for her. So I am thinking she must have some source of acceptance being given to her at home.

I don't agree with where you say Randy 'must have some sort of acceptance ...at home'

I talked to my second grade teacher, because she A) listened and B) seemed to understand (or let me say, she didn't judge, call me names, or 'correct me'). I could be 'matter of fact about it', because she was cool. It was the first time anyone bothered to take me seriously, and I had a lot to say. I could also just ask for what I wanted/needed, because I was in second grade, and when you're in second grade you don't really care about asking for what you want/need. I mean, if Mrs. Clifford said 'no', then ok who cares? This could very well be the first time ANY adult has been cool with Randy, and she may just be testing the waters. It's not like eight year olds have the best sense of boundaries, and Randy may truly have no idea what she's 'allowed' to do in this new sense of acceptance. Hell trans adults don't know what the hell they're 'allowed' to do either sometimes. So, I really wouldn't assume that just because Randy is being vocal and expressing herself that she has some sort of acceptance at home. This may very well be the first time anyone has bothered to take her seriously. Trust me, there was absolutely NO acceptance at my home, and I very much pushed Mrs. Clifford's boundaries and was quite vocal in her class because I knew I was safe from harrassment of other kids and gender roles. A phone call home would have ruined all of that...anyone talking to my parents would have fucked it all up.


Dylan

[julieisafemme]

Hi softness. What a wonderful daughter you have! I'm glad to know that there are people in the teaching profession who care about the whole child and can meet them where they are.

I wanted to pass on a link to an excellent resource for educators, families and anyone interested in supporting kids who are transgendered.

http://www.genderspectrum.org/

They ran a conference in Seattle last year at the same time as Gender Odyssey for adults. There is a lot of good information on this site.

Good luck to your daughter in her new profession!

[Soft*Silver]

Julie..what an awesome web site! I am sending it to her tonight! I know she will order the book I just saw there..The Transgendered Childand if she doesnt, she will get it for christmas! Thank you!

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Hi softness. What a wonderful daughter you have! I'm glad to know that there are people in the teaching profession who care about the whole child and can meet them where they are.

I wanted to pass on a link to an excellent resource for educators, families and anyone interested in supporting kids who are transgendered.

http://www.genderspectrum.org/

They ran a conference in Seattle last year at the same time as Gender Odyssey for adults. There is a lot of good information on this site.

Good luck to your daughter in her new profession!

[Lee]

I think the easiest thing to do, while taking into consideration the childs gender ID, as well as the possibility that the parents may not be supportive or worse, is to avoid pronouns whenever possible. Since the kid has a gender neutral name this should be fairly simple. Im sure "Randy" would LOVE to be called she and her, but if you avoid pronouns as much as possible you will at least be lessening the sting that he and him leaves. Not using pronouns seems like a hard thing to do, but the important times will be when Randy is present, and if Randy is right there in front of the teacher she can just use Randys name or say you.
Rather than say "Ok class Randy is going to show us his/her picture now" just make sure you phrase things so you can say "Randy its your turn to show us your picture." It does get tricky when your trying to be purposeful about pronouns but it can be done, and really every time you avoid using the pronoun that the kid does not ID with your making life a little easier.

[Soft*Silver]

no, she isnt. She told the child she will keep calling him he, because thats what you do in school, but she knows he believes he is a girl. She seemed very happy with that, from what my kid said. It doesnt take alot to please a kid. Acknowledgement is usually what they need. And for someone to be present with them in their reality...

again, I am pretty sure she talked to the principal. I cant imagine my kid not going to her leader/mentor.

And this principal also knows her/us. My kid went to preschool there for 3 years. They know I am a lesbian and they know Liz and I are quite liberal. The principal didnt care back then and she certainly doesnt care now. She is (from my daughter's account) mentoring her....and my kid is absorbing as much as she can....

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Dylan,
It will not just stop at letting the child go into a certain gender line division. And, if Softness' daughter is referring to this child with female pronouns without the parent's consent? You think THAT is going to go over well? It isn't and Softness' daughter needs to be aware that she is putting her job in jeopardy by making these decisions without Administrative AND parental support.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by softness

no, she isnt. She told the child she will keep calling him he, because thats what you do in school, but she knows he believes he is a girl. She seemed very happy with that, from what my kid said. It doesnt take alot to please a kid. Acknowledgement is usually what they need. And for someone to be present with them in their reality...

again, I am pretty sure she talked to the principal. I cant imagine my kid not going to her leader/mentor.

And this principal also knows her/us. My kid went to preschool there for 3 years. They know I am a lesbian and they know Liz and I are quite liberal. The principal didnt care back then and she certainly doesnt care now. She is (from my daughter's account) mentoring her....and my kid is absorbing as much as she can....

Got it about the pronouns--my mistake.

Glad to hear your daughter is in touch with her principal and, most importantly, trying to best make this child comfortable the time she has her in the classroom.

She sounds like a teacher who is open to making all students feel welcome and that is wonderful.