Open Letter: Dear Femme

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Arwen,

I was thinking about your attempt to see your mother as someone beyond her roles and I wondered if she was able to see herself as someone beyond her roles.

I actually KNOW my mother saw herself as beyond her roles. She was an amazing woman. However, this ability also render her the gift of being selfish. That did not translate well for my sister or myself at times because we thought she belonged to us. She had to continually disabuse us of that notion.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by kat6071

I think it's not the way we are seen by others, rather than the way we see ourselves and how we let them treat us, that matters.

This is precisely the way that I see it.

We lose our autonomy only to the degree that we allow it.

And as Arwen goes on to say, particularly for mothers (and lovers), we may have to disabuse our children and partners of the notion that we ever belonged to them. I do not believe, and have never believed, that my child belongs to me. She came through me. I am her guardian as long as she is with me and until she can suffice herself.

This is what *I* do: I suffice myself.

Sometimes this is read as selfishness. And it may be. But I believe it is more true that I am simply a solitary creature. My roles are of a temporal nature relative to who and what I am. Don't misread, my love is fierce. But it does not define me. My mind defines me before my heart does. Unless we are speaking to my compassion. This also defines me. But never in the sense that I am giving myself away for it.

That is less compassion than martyrdom. And I am no martyr.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by evolveme

This is what *I* do: I suffice myself.

Sometimes this is read as selfishness. And it may be. But I believe it is more true that I am simply a solitary creature. My roles are of a temporal nature relative to who and what I am. Don't misread, my love is fierce. But it does not define me. My mind defines me before my heart does. Unless we are speaking to my compassion. This also defines me. But never in the sense that I am giving myself away for it.

That is less compassion than martyrdom. And I am no martyr.

Oh can you PLEASE needlepoint that on a pillow for me? That last line.

Selfishness and meanness are such GOOD qualities to have in moderation. By selfishness I mean be selfish about your time and space and needs. Put yourself first so others who watch you can learn to put themselves first.

BULB! That's what Mama was doing. She was showing me by doing. I didn't learn it so well but I can always revisit those lessons.

Meanness to some is honesty to others is anger to someone else. I'd rather have friends in my world who are upfront and honest and who will give me the respect of discussing things. I am MEAN about this concept of honesty. I have to be otherwise I turn into a woman I do not like.

And I must be selfish and like myself better than anyone else, yes?

This becomes more than a word -- femme. Femme is part of who I am, yes, but it is not nearly all of who I am.

In a strange seque, I am reminded of a pillow my aunt gave my mother. It said:

It it's not one thing--it's your mother.

I think now I understand just why Mama found that so hysterical.

And why she always hid that pillow when my grandmother came to visit.

[Apocalipstic]

Thank you powerful, strong, brave Sisters and Allies.

Thank you for speaking your truth.

My truth?

Has involved pretty pink font and pink avatars which make me smile and somehow rise above the sometimes shattering pain of daily existence. (I stopped with the pink font so people would read my posts, yes it made me sad, and yes I see that stopping to please others makes me a co-dependent pleaser )

Sees that no one is better than anyone else in terms of class or gender or race or education.

Knows that insisting on living in a kind and harmonious way is not weak.

Speaks her mind firmly and directly when something is important.

Refuses to spend time on revenge and anger.

Tries to consistently speak to issues she finds important even if people would rather her be silent.

Loves who she loves.

I really resonate with what so many of you have to say. e, Arwen, Adele, Julieis, Diva, June. In so many ways you are my heroes.

I admit that meanness frightens and freezes me. I never thought of it as bowing out to masculinity.

more later.

[wolfwalker]

While I love the love and respect you are showing her here, I also want to see you simply allow her the autonomy and agency she deserves (not that I believe you are necessarily disrespecting her). I understand that "the dance" has us thinking often of the bright space between us, the sharp contrast. But what was it about her that you loved before she was yours?

Autonomy???????? Do any of you know Jess and Christie?

I do and Jess loves her from here to the next universe and she, jess. Jess doesn't to give her autonomy. She is a grown ass woman and fully ready willing and able to provide her own autonomy. If anyone even thought about trying to take that away. I will gladly call 911 for ya. or send flowers LOLOLOL



wolfwalker

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I think maybe you've just hit on a very important point. Because we ourselves accept those roles, we don't push our own envelopes. We don't become all we can be (sorry for the motto, lol).

Maybe by remaining "just" partners or wives or girlfriends or however we style that relationship...maybe we keep ourselves down.

I am not saying we all do this, but I think there is a percentage that do. And it's probably easier, right? Tell them you are a _____ and let them relate to you on that level and that level only. Keeps intimacy controllable. Manageable. Not so scary.

Do we as femmes perpetuate the role of femme? The giggles and flirting and all the rest?

and is the role of Femme with giggles and flirting a bad thing, or is it an escape from everyday hard work?

[apretty]

i'm not following the conversation. i mean, post 147 made sense and then i'm lost again for at least a page. help?

[Apocalipstic]

I was responding to the thread as a whole, are there specific things you don't understand or can't follow in my posts? Am I not making sense?

I thought we were sharing our truths as Femme and what it means to us?

Will you explain how I should have responded? I sometimes take things and am too literal. My deepest appologies for messing up the thread.

[apretty]

this makes sense to me:

Originally Posted by evolveme

Tell us about her independent of you or even what she means to you.

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

lord i hope so! (and i really think so) ...but we can't do this (define us/others) while identifying ourselves dependent on anything/one else.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I was responding to the thread as a whole, are there specific things you don't understand or can't follow in my posts? Am I not making sense?

I thought we were sharing our truths as Femme and what it means to us?

Will you explain how I should have responded? I sometimes take things and am too literal. My deepest appologies for messing up the thread.

sorry, i didn't mean for you to take my 'confusion' personally. i was in no way addressing you, rather acknowledging my own sense of not being able to follow the last couple of pages--the conversation 'shift'. i did read your truth-post and could relate to your definition of 'you'.

[IrishGrrl]

As a femme, I feel powerful, strong. confident, inspiried.

But..

Are we hesitant to show our vunerable side for fear of being seen as just a weak female?

Most of the time, I dont want anyone to see my vunerablilities, my tears, my saddness...I dont want to be seen like less than the ass kicking femme I am..

anyone else?

[Isadora]

I am femme, flawed and fabulous. It has always been who I am from the inside out. It is a constant learning process to know who I am, I am never completely formed.

I am strong and independent. I am weak and inter-dependent. I am a very social being and everything seems to hurt deeply, especially as I age (we won't even start about being OLD and femme). When my self feels unsafe I am lucky to have people who will keep their promises and understand that being sensationally weak is not a bad thing. Asking for help from someone I respect, love and trust relieves me, it does not make me dependent.

I am loud and I am quiet. I have worked hard to know the difference between choosing to be silent and being silenced. It takes wisdom to do the first and alertness to recognize the second.

I am bossy, all the way to passive depending on the situation. Again knowing when to be which is always the hard part. I have learned a lot about myself and the choices I have made in my life. I like being in control until I don't like it. LOL

I am hurt and I am angry. I try to channel my own hurt and anger into positive action, but I am the first to admit, that it does not always work. We have been conditioned and socialized to be passive-aggressive as a way to handle our hurt and anger. (Great book on this called: Social Aggression among Girls by Marion K. Underwood, I read several years ago. She shares her extensive research that looks at how we are socialized to be socially aggressive and how suppressed anger/hurt effects our social interactions with other girls/women.) Sometimes my anger comes out as silence, a deep void of rage that swirls into a vortex of inner turmoil. Sometimes it is channeled into social action and sometimes I just scream.

I range from emotionally present to absent depending on my own feeling of safety. I find, again as I age, that my feelings are right on my skin and things that I would just let pass in the past, I won't. some things are not worth the effort and I let them go. Then there are some things I refuse to be silent about, I feel more deeply and sadness is released in tears and heart-ache. I am vulnerable now, only to the people I deeply trust, and those people get fewer and fewer.

I don't always need to be understood by anyone but me and I want to be accepted as who I am as a individual human being. I don't always want to be healed, I want to be heard. I don't always want to have to define myself, I just want to be seen. I don't always want to explain my choices, I just want them accepted as fully mine. I fight to keep my Shirley Valentine alive.

I am a a bell curve not a duality. My self is fluid. I hope it is always that way.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by evolveme

I do not believe, and have never believed, that my child belongs to me. She came through me. I am her guardian as long as she is with me and until she can suffice herself.

This is what *I* do: I suffice myself.

Sometimes this is read as selfishness. And it may be. But I believe it is more true that I am simply a solitary creature. My roles are of a temporal nature relative to who and what I am. Don't misread, my love is fierce. But it does not define me. My mind defines me before my heart does. Unless we are speaking to my compassion. This also defines me. But never in the sense that I am giving myself away for it.

That is less compassion than martyrdom. And I am no martyr.

The bolded words: Perfect.

My mother and I have long had this kind of dialogue. I love seeing it in print, the words she and I have exchanged for years. Thank you for having the same words.

[MizzSabra]

Originally Posted by evolveme

<snippity-snip>
And, everyone's favorite: The Naming of The Slut.

Someone call for me?

I don't even know where to start.....Great thread e, I'm still reading.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

The bolded words: Perfect.

My mother and I have long had this kind of dialogue. I love seeing it in print, the words she and I have exchanged for years. Thank you for having the same words.

It makes me so happy to hear you share this, Lovely Sassy. Knowing that an adult mother and daughter exist somewhere and speak of this kind of relating to one another fills me with something profound. I can only hope that my daughter and I will continue to have the kind of relationship that we do, and that it will evolve into a woman-to-woman relating someday.

My feeling that she does not belong to me - that I do not possess her - is almost a spiritual point of view. I recognize her wholeness. I honor it.

This is, I think, the baseline of what the last couple of pages have been about.

We want our wholeness to be honored.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by MizzSabra

Someone call for me?

I don't even know where to start.....Great thread e, I'm still reading.

Oh, Lady, I know how to get your gendertrashy ass right where I want it.

Don't you doubt me.

,

e

P.S. Apologies to The Arwen for any discomfort caused by overt girl-flirting. <wink>

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by evolveme

It makes me so happy to hear you share this, Lovely Sassy. Knowing that an adult mother and daughter exist somewhere and speak of this kind of relating to one another fills me with something profound. I can only hope that my daughter and I will continue to have the kind of relationship that we do, and that it will evolve into a woman-to-woman relating someday.

My feeling that she does not belong to me - that I do not possess her - is almost a spiritual point of view. I recognize her wholeness. I honor it.

This is, I think, the baseline of what the last couple of pages have been about.

We want our wholeness to be honored.

Yes, absolutely. And that is what it has become, a woman-to-woman relating. And spiritual point of view is exactly how she describes it. We talk about how we kind of birthed each other...how I am not "hers", but that we get to be teachers for each other, guardians of learning.

My mother doesn't necessarily identify as Femme. She appears very feminine and people have described her as Femme, however she has mixed feelings about labels related to appearance and believes she loves who she loves, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, identity, etc. (She taught me some good stuff ). She was with my father for more than 20 years and came out when I was a teen. Then dating several women who all identified very differently. She has told me over the years that she did not know how to articulate her feelings, desire, and how she viewed herself in relation to "queerness" (my word). However, there is within her a strong feeling of wanting to be seen in her entirety as who she is, not in relation to who she dates, fucks, be-friends; what she wears, how she does her hair, etc. She struggles using the words lesbian, dyke, even queer. She wants to be seen without all the other descriptors attached. She mostly calls herself a "spiritual human" (and woman, mother, etc). I asked her if she had thought about choosing the word Femme to describe/define herself (as a "queer" word - label/un-label) and use her own descriptors? As in, what we are all talking about here...what Femme is to us? Not that I was specifically telling her she needed to label herself or "Femme" herself, but look at it from the angle that we are all talking about... she smiled and nodded and said she had not thought of it that way...

I feel so blessed to be able to have these kinds of conversations with her...and I hope that you are also able to...or get to when the time is right

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

Yes, absolutely. And that is what it has become, a woman-to-woman relating. And spiritual point of view is exactly how she describes it. We talk about how we kind of birthed each other...how I am not "hers", but that we get to be teachers for each other, guardians of learning.

My mother doesn't necessarily identify as Femme. She appears very feminine and people have described her as Femme, however she has mixed feelings about labels related to appearance and believes she loves who she loves, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, identity, etc. (She taught me some good stuff ). She was with my father for more than 20 years and came out when I was a teen. Then dating several women who all identified very differently. She has told me over the years that she did not know how to articulate her feelings, desire, and how she viewed herself in relation to "queerness" (my word). However, there is within her a strong feeling of wanting to be seen in her entirety as who she is, not in relation to who she dates, fucks, be-friends; what she wears, how she does her hair, etc. She struggles using the words lesbian, dyke, even queer. She wants to be seen without all the other descriptors attached. She mostly calls herself a "spiritual human" (and woman, mother, etc). I asked her if she had thought about choosing the word Femme to describe/define herself (as a "queer" word - label/un-label) and use her own descriptors? As in, what we are all talking about here...what Femme is to us? Not that I was specifically telling her she needed to label herself or "Femme" herself, but look at it from the angle that we are all talking about... she smiled and nodded and said she had not thought of it that way...

I feel so blessed to be able to have these kinds of conversations with her...and I hope that you are also able to...or get to when the time is right

I have been amazed by the story of you and your dad, but this is the first time I've seen you write about your mother. I didn't know that she was not strictly heterosexual, or that you might share something so intimately in common with her. What an amazing story you have, and clearly, what an amazing mother... and mother/daughter bond.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Isadora

I don't always need to be understood by anyone but me and I want to be accepted as who I am as a individual human being. I don't always want to be healed, I want to be heard. I don't always want to have to define myself, I just want to be seen. I don't always want to explain my choices, I just want them accepted as fully mine. I fight to keep my Shirley Valentine alive.

I am a a bell curve not a duality. My self is fluid. I hope it is always that way.

Isadora, your whole post was beautiful, but this part, I especially loved and related to. Thank you so much for posting it here.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by evolveme

This is, I think, the baseline of what the last couple of pages have been about.

We want our wholeness to be honored.

That's what I'm trying to say, I think. To be honored isn't the same as "validated." I want to validate myself, without relying on the approval and acceptance of others. And, it isn't even that I want to be honored for WHO I am. I want to be honored THAT I am. Does that make any sense? I agree, absolutely, that we should all be accepted for how we identify and who we say we are. But, I'm trying to address something deeper than that.