The Mythical *Pass* for Differently-Abled People

[violaine]

superfemme wrote:

I'd like to have a discussion about this, and hear honest feedback, because I've noticed that sometimes we are given "passes" by our fellow community members (mostly in the spirit of caring/compassion) and I want to talk about how that can or cannot invalidate a differently-abled person.

Thanks.

i really don't know that in my case, i've noticed within this or any other online community, any "passes". my interaction is usually to the 'topic' and less posting back and forth to individuals, or groups of people. i do write from my own aspergian space mostly, because that's a way that feels right or natural to me, instead of using lots of 'we' or 'us' comments -so that may be part of it.



a note about adult services being difficult to come by, please. in some cases the only option is to start the group, if someone is able to do so, like i did for adults on the autism spectrum. otherwise, i would find numbers disconnected; closed groups/servies; or funding issues- as EZeeTiger listed.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have a mother who has some issues, she takes a nice cocktail to keep her functioning and filtered.

When she says something stupid, fucked, up or uncalled for I call her ASS OUT, and ream her ass hard. I will NOT make any excuses she is my mother and she will *learn* to be polite and not be an ass hat. I do this because I know she can and giving her a pass is not doing her justice it only helps her out.


I have a brother who is deaf, my parents coddled the fuck out of him and did the whole aww but he is deaf thing.

I DID NOT, I kicked his ass, punched him, threw him on his back and will still do that shit and call him on his fucked upness. He does not get a special pass from me because we are from the same Momma and well my
Momma did not raise us to be anything other than strong independent human beings. He has gone without talking to me for 2 years because I
tell him *I do not want to hear your lame ass excuses* I hold him to the same standards as any fucking body else.


I have a son who is an Aspie.

I am hard on him, I check his 10 year old ass hard when he begins to be an ass hat. He pushes boundaries and I push back HARD, I am not gentler to him because I gave him life than any other person out there, matter of fact I am harder on my cubs because they are representin' me. When he does his lil I wanna be violent and then go catatonic shit I don't allow it, in this house we talk it out, if he chooses otherwise he knows life is not going to be *The Fairly Odd Parents* or *Transformers*.


I have a couple sisterfriends one who has TBI the other cancer.

There is NO male version of her, she is unique as they come, and with that comes challenges. Do I make excuses for her ass? Hell no, I will come down hard on her ass, make her cry and continue to do so, because I know she can and treating her otherwise enables her to live in a *disabled* space.

She isn't, she has a challenging situation, she knows better, I don't give a rats ass that her brains are scrambled, (yes I talk to her this way) she is not going to be an ass hat, bitch, boundary crossing. I treat her as my equal because she is, we just have different thinking mechanisms. I do it because I love her and care.

The other woman is just as strong, though her body and mind are not the same as a year ago, I won't give her the pass for being a jerk, if need be I will say to her what I have to say, it does not take much when you check someone, if they want to be seen as who they are they listen.

I won't give anyone a pass. We are all adults, equals. Using the excuse that you have an illness to be a jerk, sexist, ass hat and other various things is not going to fly nor should it.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by violaine

superfemme wrote:

I'd like to have a discussion about this, and hear honest feedback, because I've noticed that sometimes we are given "passes" by our fellow community members (mostly in the spirit of caring/compassion) and I want to talk about how that can or cannot invalidate a differently-abled person.

Thanks.

i really don't know that in my case, i've noticed within this or any other online community, any "passes". my interaction is usually to the 'topic' and less posting back and forth to individuals, or groups of people. i do write from my own aspergian space mostly, because that's a way that feels right or natural to me, instead of using lots of 'we' or 'us' comments -so that may be part of it.



a note about adult services being difficult to come by, please. in some cases the only option is to start the group, if someone is able to do so, like i did for adults on the autism spectrum. otherwise, i would find numbers disconnected; closed groups/servies; or funding issues- as EZeeTiger listed.

Thanks Violane. I'm glad that you haven't had to deal with the whole "pass" thing.

I understand what you are saying about adult services being difficult to find, but they are out there. I have yet to seek a specific kind of help without being able to find at least one resource. Even here where I live now, which is almost rural.

[Plato]

My experience has been to not say anything about having been on a respirator for 2 months and not having enough oxygen to my brain, which changed me physically, emotionally, and mentally.
Some changes have been for the good. I just celebrated 11 years clean and sober, have a loving spouse and terrific custom-made family, and am on the edge of completing a 4 year college program for a B.S. degree.
Changes that are not so good is mainly that my bio-family doesn't recognize that inside challenges are also "disabilities". {By that I mean that my information processing is very different from the "norm".} They constantly expect and remind me of what I "should" be doing, without taking into account of what I am ABLE to do. It isn't for the lack of ambition, it's because I'm aware of what I'm capable of doing.

My CM-family learn and help each other to overcome our challenges, and help each other with things that are difficult or impossible. For example, the 12 yo supervises me with knifes, tells me to be careful when we are walking, and everyone knows we can not keep a supply of glassware because I tend to forget that I can't hang on to them, which results in broken glass.

Head patting is for sissies. Expect more and get more.

When I hear people say, "Well, He/She was drunk ... {fill in the blank}", it makes me cringe, cause that's the same kind of "pass" being referred to in this thread. To say, it's ok for someone to treat someone else in a crappy way because "He/She is ... {fill in the blank}", not only excuses bad/undesirable behavior, but sets a horrible example for the young ones. Children need to see adults treating each other compassionately and fairly.

[Apocalipstic]

SF, I am so glad that you started this thread, because I do have some questions floating around about different ways of being.

I am very glad Violaine and Christie posted, to see how some of my friends process taking to DA people on the Neurological Spectrum. I am not sure how head injuries play in, but probably similarly?

I must admit I have seen posts, that were so clear and easy to understand for me, that would have seemed asshatish to someone neurotypical, moderated firmly....and then, when I questioned their treatment, have been told "so and so is not stupid. NO, none of us are stupid, but some of us do process things much more literally than others and I think that while I get the not giving anyone special passes, I also question expecting everyone to be able to communicate on the same level.

Because of my own difficulties, I advocate for patience and love and not jumping to the worst possible conclusion automatically for other people. I hope I do not seem patronizing?

I do admit to working really hard all my life to fit in and be able to communicate and behave in a socially acceptable manner. So yes, everyone can work on themselves and make improvements. Absolutely!

Now, I am not saying that other people's reactions to persons who are DA is better or worse than mine, but I (from my ME place) am not a fan of tough love. I understand tough love is an option and that friends whom I love and admire are way more upfront than I am. But for me, having some neurological opportunities of my own, I don't expect a pass but I certainly appreciate those who are kind to me and who take the time to really hear me.

I am not not not saying that we could coddle those people whose lives are constantly a disaster, just I think sometimes kindness and compassion does not have to be belittling or othering.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Ms Apoca I am gonna jump off your post.

So what does one do when you have made it clear, a THOUSAND times with patience, with kindness and the person still does not respect those boundaries?

Do I just chalk it up to the fact they have a disability and they are gonna use that as an excuse time and time again?

Curious how you would handle this cause I don't have a soft buffer like yourself

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Ms Apoca I am gonna jump off your post.

So what does one do when you have made it clear, a THOUSAND times with patience, with kindness and the person still does not respect those boundaries?

Do I just chalk it up to the fact they have a disability and they are gonna use that as an excuse time and time again?

Curious how you would handle this cause I don't have a soft buffer like yourself

I think it depends on whether or not you want to ever interact again with the person.

Some people I just can't communicate with and stress me out even when I have tried to make clear my boundaries. When this happens, I have to just cut bait as it were, and have nothing to do with them again ( I have that option). They may be great people, but I can't go there.

I know you can't do that with your son, with him I know you have to just keep on going no matter how much your head wants to explode. I can't even imagine what it must be like.

So I think where we are different is I walk away and you confront. I have no idea which is better. I remove the person from my life at least for a while, 100% because I don't have the nerves for it. You, being a Mom don't have that option really. I wish sometimes I were more confrontational, but with my issues, it seems healthier to walk away.

[violaine]

[QUOTE=The_Lady_Snow;151869]Ms Apoca I am gonna jump off your post.

So what does one do when you have made it clear, a THOUSAND times with patience, with kindness and the person still does not respect those boundaries?

Do I just chalk it up to the fact they have a disability and they are gonna use that as an excuse time and time again?

Curious how you would handle this cause I don't have a soft buffer like yourself?

TheLadySnow

i was thinking apocalipstic's post was really good [to me] about her ability to understand posts, over the years, which may have been written by DA, and NT moderated.

your question, although it's to apocalipstic, i would like to respond to, please. in my own experiences, i could ask the very same thing about NT's who disrespect boundaries time and time again- do i chalk it up to being the 'majority?"

this is very interesting, because i sometimes have wondered if NT's - DA or not - notice certain things, which can get lost during my translation to someone not on the spectrum, whenever i try to explain what i just heard and/or saw - and these NT words/behaviours can happen rapid-fire.

[SuperFemme]

[quote=violaine;151949]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Ms Apoca I am gonna jump off your post.

So what does one do when you have made it clear, a THOUSAND times with patience, with kindness and the person still does not respect those boundaries?

Do I just chalk it up to the fact they have a disability and they are gonna use that as an excuse time and time again?

Curious how you would handle this cause I don't have a soft buffer like yourself?

TheLadySnow

i was thinking apocalipstic's post was really good [to me] about her ability to understand posts, over the years, which may have been written by DA, and NT moderated.

your question, although it's to apocalipstic, i would like to respond to, please. in my own experiences, i could ask the very same thing about NT's who disrespect boundaries time and time again- do i chalk it up to being the 'majority?"

this is very interesting, because i sometimes have wondered if NT's notice certain things, which can get lost during my translation to someone not on the spectrum, whenever i try to explain what i just heard and/or saw - and these NT words/behaviours can happen rapid-fire.

What is an NT?
What do you mean by "being the majority"?

[The_Lady_Snow]

[quote=violaine;151949]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Ms Apoca I am gonna jump off your post.

So what does one do when you have made it clear, a THOUSAND times with patience, with kindness and the person still does not respect those boundaries?

Do I just chalk it up to the fact they have a disability and they are gonna use that as an excuse time and time again?

Curious how you would handle this cause I don't have a soft buffer like yourself?

TheLadySnow

i was thinking apocalipstic's post was really good [to me] about her ability to understand posts, over the years, which may have been written by DA, and NT moderated.

your question, although it's to apocalipstic, i would like to respond to, please. in my own experiences, i could ask the very same thing about NT's who disrespect boundaries time and time again- do i chalk it up to being the 'majority?"

this is very interesting, because i sometimes have wondered if NT's - DA or not - notice certain things, which can get lost during my translation to someone not on the spectrum, whenever i try to explain what i just heard and/or saw - and these NT words/behaviours can happen rapid-fire.

We have all joined a site, that has a set of rules, we all live in a society with sets of rules. Be we either NT or not we have to abide to the rules and boundaries that are set by one another or that have been already set.

So NT or DA matters not, I could use the fact that english is not my first language and I am dyslexic, then again you are assuming we are all NT no? We all have a knowing of what is right and wrong, if we do not have that comprehension then we are asking for trouble if allowance is being given time and time again because of someone's illness

Make sense?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Plato

My experience has been to not say anything about having been on a respirator for 2 months and not having enough oxygen to my brain, which changed me physically, emotionally, and mentally.
Some changes have been for the good. I just celebrated 11 years clean and sober, have a loving spouse and terrific custom-made family, and am on the edge of completing a 4 year college program for a B.S. degree.
Changes that are not so good is mainly that my bio-family doesn't recognize that inside challenges are also "disabilities". {By that I mean that my information processing is very different from the "norm".} They constantly expect and remind me of what I "should" be doing, without taking into account of what I am ABLE to do. It isn't for the lack of ambition, it's because I'm aware of what I'm capable of doing.

My CM-family learn and help each other to overcome our challenges, and help each other with things that are difficult or impossible. For example, the 12 yo supervises me with knifes, tells me to be careful when we are walking, and everyone knows we can not keep a supply of glassware because I tend to forget that I can't hang on to them, which results in broken glass.

Head patting is for sissies. Expect more and get more.

When I hear people say, "Well, He/She was drunk ... {fill in the blank}", it makes me cringe, cause that's the same kind of "pass" being referred to in this thread. To say, it's ok for someone to treat someone else in a crappy way because "He/She is ... {fill in the blank}", not only excuses bad/undesirable behavior, but sets a horrible example for the young ones. Children need to see adults treating each other compassionately and fairly.

Thanks honey. In case anyone didn't know we're married, Plato and I.

It was kismet that two people with brain injuries found each other. We were paralyzed on opposite sides of our bodies, so together we are a complete and functioning right and left.

I know that we both get our different abilities dismissed by our families. In some ugly ways.

I know that you and the kids understand that I cannot taste or smell. You all try to have food ideas that involve texture. The children know that the loss of two of my senses heightened the ones I have left. So if a stranger were to observe our family eat potato chips it would probably come off as very fucking strange. Everyone gingerly tries to fish a chip out of the bag without making crinkling noises. OR they dump them all out and get rid of the bag FAST so as to end the crinkling.

Noises hurt my head and make me feel very very angry. Paper is the worst I think.

We all take care of each other but nobody "gets away" with anything. Ever. We have a tough crowd. The kids have to have patience with two parents operating on limited short term and long term memory. So they are responsible for writing stuff down. Otherwise I am going to get mad and insist "I never said that".

Conversely, they both know how to use those very things to their advantage and will "work it". Sigh.

Thank god for chosen family.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

We all take care of each other but nobody "gets away" with anything. Ever. We have a tough crowd.
Thank god for chosen family.

Plus, our chosen family has grown by one for a few weeks.
She is learning some patience skills by osmosis .....

[SuperFemme]

Snow, thanks for your amazing post, and I'll be back to address that in a moment.

I hope that I am conveying what I want to in this thread, and from the responses so far? I think I am...

Do I think the people in my world/life should know what TBI looks like? Yes. I do because we care about and love each other. So understanding each other is super important.

I do think it's up to me (in large part) to educate those in my immediate world. In a very honest way. That way when I tell people that I love 17 times in a half hour conversation that a dog chased me down the street today they don't light themselves on fire. Instead, they steer me somewhere else.

I made Snowy and Plato NUTS when balloon boy happened. I couldn't stop talking about it, being angry about it and looking for new information about it. I don't know how to stop myself when I perseverate. Which is awful.

Definition?: perseverate - psychology: repeat a response after the cessation of the original stimulus; "The subjects in this study perseverated"

Now, when I start to perseverate they grab me and say "Balloon Boy". Which is my cue that I'm doing my thing again. It's up to me to stop it though, otherwise I find myself alone while everyone else goes out and does something fun that does not involve "Balloon Boy".

I suffered seizures for a long time, but haven't had one in about a year now. Certain foods and activities brought seizures on. I didn't want anyone policing me and walking around next to me with a pillow just in case I went down. Over time I learned how to really work at NOT doing things that caused seizures.

So why am I sharing all this personal stuff? Because believe me, it puts me in a very vulnerable place. I know how mean people can be, and how sometimes things are funny. That aren't.

I just really want people who are NOT differently-abled to know that their love and empathy is appreciated. Knowing that people care is the best feeling in the world. Caveat? Letting me do things over and over again and feeling sorry for me harms me. It does not help me.

I understand the intentions behind feeling protective of someone with a different-ability, and I think it's great. What I find problematic is not holding us accountable for ourselves. It is disempowering to suggest a differently abled person cannot learn to self moderate.

I guess I don't want to be read differently. If that means giving someone who makes an asswipe statement the same consideration that you'd give a person with a different ability then so be it. That just means we're spreading the same amount of compassion around to everyone. Which is never a bad thing, right?

But I don't want special consideration. Because I have to live in the same world as the rest of you. With the same rules and laws. If I make a mistake, a police officer isn't going to give me special consideration. I'm going to get in the same kind of trouble as everyone else.

So to give the false security that rules do NOT apply to me is truly in the end, something that disables me further.

[SuperFemme]

I also want to give a shout out to June: Who has a special way of letting me know that I am just like everyone else here and must act accordingly. She either mocks me or tells me to get a job. Which I love. For some strange reason it makes me feel secure to know that I am as susceptible to the stink eye as the next person.

edit: as a fine example of brain injury i'd like to confess that I first posted this in the wrong thread. the misogyny/sexism thread. which i am sure made people think: wtf?

THEN I freaked out when it wasn't here, and was sure June deleted it because she found me a job.

[SuperFemme]

Ravfem? I loved your post. I feel like I just really got a peek at who you are, and I am impressed!

Apocalipstic? I want to reiterate again that I am NOT advocating for tough love, or for poor treatment of people who are differently-abled.

I think we all have different cognitive levels and that should be the first consideration when holding people accountable. I think using compassion, love and patience is always the right way to go, and I am not asking this community to dogpile on differently-abled people who break the rules.

What I *am* asking for is for people to consider what giving special treatment to somebody means. For everyone involved.

[ravfem]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I also want to give a shout out to June: Who has a special way of letting me know that I am just like everyone else here and must act accordingly. She either mocks me or tells me to get a job. Which I love. For some strange reason it makes me feel secure to know that I am as susceptible to the stink eye as the next person.

edit: as a fine example of brain injury i'd like to confess that I first posted this in the wrong thread. the misogyny/sexism thread. which i am sure made people think: wtf?

THEN I freaked out when it wasn't here, and was sure June deleted it because she found me a job.

ok first, this made me giggle.

Seriously though, i agree completely that when i am treated like everyone else, i really, really appreciate that and i admit that i immediately respect the person more because of it. It's like they are letting me know that no, i'm not special (well...not in that way anyway ), and that they respect me enough to treat me fairly, on the same level as "normal" people.

i've had people be afraid to touch my left arm/hand. Depending on my mood, that either hurts or pisses me off.

OH!! and another thing!! i soooooo much prefer it when people who have questions ask me, not the people who know me! Ask away!! i would love to educate you a little!!

[christie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I understand the intentions behind feeling protective of someone with a different-ability, and I think it's great. What I find problematic is not holding us accountable for ourselves. It is disempowering to suggest a differently abled person cannot learn to self moderate.

I guess I don't want to be read differently. If that means giving someone who makes an asswipe statement the same consideration that you'd give a person with a different ability then so be it. That just means we're spreading the same amount of compassion around to everyone. Which is never a bad thing, right?

But I don't want special consideration. Because I have to live in the same world as the rest of you. With the same rules and laws. If I make a mistake, a police officer isn't going to give me special consideration. I'm going to get in the same kind of trouble as everyone else.

So to give the false security that rules do NOT apply to me is truly in the end, something that disables me further.

SF -

I snipped your post for brevity.

I wanted to clarify that my viewing my son's experience through a different lens (or viewing a DA's post thru a different lens) doesn't mean that I don't hold him (or them) to the same standard. If anything, in my son's case, he is held to a higher standard with me. Its my job to ensure he has the skill set necessary for the world with the same rules/laws/expectations as those without his challenges.

I use the *lens* as part of my process in trying to figure out how he thinks. How he came to whatever place he is in - because for me, if I can figure out his perspective (which is usually so very different than mine) then I have a starting point to address the specific issue.

I don't think this is coddling him or giving him the false sense of security you mention. This is, through lots of trial and error, what works best for him. I don't expect others to go through the same interaction process with him, but more that he has the skills to self monitor/reflect rather than standing in the midst of a heated interaction with someone and not have a clue as to how he got there. He doesn't get to be an asswipe any more than anyone else does - probably less because I never want him to use his challenges as a crutch/excuse or pass.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by christie0918

SF -

I snipped your post for brevity.

I wanted to clarify that my viewing my son's experience through a different lens (or viewing a DA's post thru a different lens) doesn't mean that I don't hold him (or them) to the same standard. If anything, in my son's case, he is held to a higher standard with me. Its my job to ensure he has the skill set necessary for the world with the same rules/laws/expectations as those without his challenges.

I use the *lens* as part of my process in trying to figure out how he thinks. How he came to whatever place he is in - because for me, if I can figure out his perspective (which is usually so very different than mine) then I have a starting point to address the specific issue.

I don't think this is coddling him or giving him the false sense of security you mention. This is, through lots of trial and error, what works best for him. I don't expect others to go through the same interaction process with him, but more that he has the skills to self monitor/reflect rather than standing in the midst of a heated interaction with someone and not have a clue as to how he got there. He doesn't get to be an asswipe any more than anyone else does - probably less because I never want him to use his challenges as a crutch/excuse or pass.

I think I mixed up a post with responding to what you wrote about and speaking to my own (adeles) feelings/experiences.

I didn't at all mean to imply that you coddle you son. If I did I want to apologize to you, because that would be an awful thing to say. I smiled when you said "Bratboy" and knew from what you wrote that you are all kinds of great as a mother.

I totally am for giving consideration to *where* a person is coming from, but not so much for allowing challenges as a crutch/excuse (which you worded so well, thanks).

I think I wish we could give everyone consideration because it is not just different abledness that causes a post to read bad. It could be a bad day, a break up, a death in the family or a million other things that leads to an asswipe post.

I hope I explained this better?

[christie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I think I mixed up a post with responding to what you wrote about and speaking to my own (adeles) feelings/experiences.

I didn't at all mean to imply that you coddle you son. If I did I want to apologize to you, because that would be an awful thing to say. I smiled when you said "Bratboy" and knew from what you wrote that you are all kinds of great as a mother.

I totally am for giving consideration to *where* a person is coming from, but not so much for allowing challenges as a crutch/excuse (which you worded so well, thanks).

I think I wish we could give everyone consideration because it is not just different abledness that causes a post to read bad. It could be a bad day, a break up, a death in the family or a million other things that leads to an asswipe post.

I hope I explained this better?

Please don't think I thought you were saying I coddled my son. What I know is that just as unique as the DA's are - so are the nonDA's! What works for us isn't necessarily going to work with another Aspie/ODD/ADHD/(pick an acronym!) Just as you and those close to you have done, I think we all find what works in interactions - DA or not.

I like to think that I am a great mother - or at least the greatest mother I am capable of being! Thanks, tho - your words mean a lot.

I think Snow has a great point in those who continue to blow past the boundaries, time and time again, despite folks having taken the time and energy and patience to try and help the DA understand the disconnect.

I don't know what the answer is - but I find that with Bratboy, ignoring the unwanted behavior usually gets results. The moment I explode with, "STOP TAPPING ME ON THE FUCKING ARM", he takes that 179IQd DA brain and records it for future reference that that is a weakness and must be exploited at every possible turn.

I also find this works well with the overly needy dog. Cesar Millan has something going with the communicating with energy as opposed to words. Maybe we have to find the language the other person understands. Maybe, there is no common language and we need to resort to energy.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by christie0918

SF -
.... If anything, in my son's case, he is held to a higher standard with me. Its my job to ensure he has the skill set necessary for the world with the same rules/laws/expectations as those without his challenges.

I use the *lens* as part of my process in trying to figure out how he thinks. How he came to whatever place he is in - because for me, if I can figure out his perspective (which is usually so very different than mine) then I have a starting point to address the specific issue.

I don't think this is coddling him or giving him the false sense of security you mention. This is, through lots of trial and error, what works best for him. He doesn't get to be an asswipe any more than anyone else does - probably less because I never want him to use his challenges as a crutch/excuse or pass.

This is an example of awesome parenting, imo, and NOT head-patting AT ALL!!