The Mythical *Pass* for Differently-Abled People

[Apocalipstic]

[quote=The_Lady_Snow;152040]

Originally Posted by violaine

We have all joined a site, that has a set of rules, we all live in a society with sets of rules. Be we either NT or not we have to abide to the rules and boundaries that are set by one another or that have been already set.

So NT or DA matters not, I could use the fact that english is not my first language and I am dyslexic, then again you are assuming we are all NT no? We all have a knowing of what is right and wrong, if we do not have that comprehension then we are asking for trouble if allowance is being given time and time again because of someone's illness

Make sense?

You are right we do have to have the same rules for everyone.

But say if you said something some people took wrong and I knew it was because English is not your first language, I would say so and be supportive of you.

I really like it that we have time outs on this website before full on banning, so people can think about what they did to break the rules.

Is it possible that some people have too much going on to be a valuable asset to an on line community?

[MrSunshine]

[quote=apocalipstic;152046]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Is it possible that some people have too much going on to be a valuable asset to an on line community?

This is a damn good question.

[The_Lady_Snow]

[quote=apocalipstic;152046]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

You are right we do have to have the same rules for everyone.

But say if you said something some people took wrong and I knew it was because English is not your first language, I would say so and be supportive of you.

I really like it that we have time outs on this website before full on banning, so people can think about what they did to break the rules.

Is it possible that some people have too much going on to be a valuable asset to an on line community?

Because I know I have to decipher things from spanish to english, then fucking read through the cryptic lettering and put it all together in my head I watch what I say.

I read posts sometimes 20 times and still I fuck up, I don't expect anyone to pat pat me or use a different filter.

*I* don't want that.

I am just the same as everyone else with the same rules

[Apocalipstic]

[quote=The_Lady_Snow;152051]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Because I know I have to decipher things from spanish to english, then fucking read through the cryptic lettering and put it all together in my head I watch what I say.

I read posts sometimes 20 times and still I fuck up, I don't expect anyone to pat pat me or use a different filter.

*I* don't want that.

I am just the same as everyone else with the same rules

I get what you are saying and agree. I do the same thing.

I highlight so I can read the print if the color is too light, change the damn font size on my computer, try to take into account what the person might be feeling or what they REALLY might mean, where they might be from, what does their slang mean (I look that up)....etc...etc...so i can try to know how to answer. Then I try to make my sentence phrasing and spelling sound like I am from the US..............

But bottom line, you are right! Hell, if you and I can follow the rules, then they can't be that hard to follow.

[Liam]

I don't want a pass, however I do want people to ask questions for clarification. My experience has been that people make assumptions, over and over, and they are wrong.

I don't think most people should have a pass, however there are those whom I believe should. When a brain injury occurs, the functions of the neurons, nerve tracts, or sections of the brain can be effected. If the neurons and nerve tracts are effected, they can be unable or have difficulty carrying messages that tell the brain what to do. This can result in Thinking Changes, Physical Changes, and Personality and Behavioral Changes. These changes can be temporary or permanent. They may cause impairment or complete inability to perform a function. One of these impairments, which may occur concerns social competence, it is one of the most complex tasks our brain encounters, and for some it doesn't happen. If someone lacks skill in this area, it is unreasonable to demand that it occur. Anger and punishment only adds to their frustration, and they only know that they did something wrong, but are left without a clue as to how to fix it. A person can read, write, take care of themselves and not be able to grasp the nuances that many take for granted. Their style of communication may seem inappropriate, when they are angry, scared or excited. I think this kind of person should get a pass.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Liam

I don't want a pass, however I do want people to ask questions for clarification. My experience has been that people make assumptions, over and over, and they are wrong.

I don't think most people should have a pass, however there are those whom I believe should. When a brain injury occurs, the functions of the neurons, nerve tracts, or sections of the brain can be effected. If the neurons and nerve tracts are effected, they can be unable or have difficulty carrying messages that tell the brain what to do. This can result in Thinking Changes, Physical Changes, and Personality and Behavioral Changes. These changes can be temporary or permanent. They may cause impairment or complete inability to perform a function. One of these impairments, which may occur concerns social competence, it is one of the most complex tasks our brain encounters, and for some it doesn't happen. If someone lacks skill in this area, it is unreasonable to demand that it occur. Anger and punishment only adds to their frustration, and they only know that they did something wrong, but are left without a clue as to how to fix it. A person can read, write, take care of themselves and not be able to grasp the nuances that many take for granted. Their style of communication may seem inappropriate, when they are angry, scared or excited. I think this kind of person should get a pass.

So I have to ask you Liam, if this person has been asked a THOUSAND times to back off, and one has reiterated their boundaries time and time again with them I should give them a pass and fuck my safe space?

[Liam]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So I have to ask you Liam, if this person has been asked a THOUSAND times to back off, and one has reiterated their boundaries time and time again with them I should give them a pass and fuck my safe space?

If they have indeed been asked a thousand times and seem to not understand boundaries then, it would seem to me, that clearly they lack social competence, and they really don't know how to do what you would like them to do.

Would not putting them on ignore, maintain your safe space?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Liam

If they have indeed been asked a thousand times and seem to not understand boundaries then, it would seem to me, that clearly they lack social competence, and they really don't know how to do what you would like them to do.

Would not putting them on ignore, maintain your safe space?

Nah

I don't like putting anything on ignore it keeps me aware of my surroundings and what is coming at me..

*shrugs*

I don't agree with you, I feel if someone is asking another person to respect their boundaries and to back off they should be held accountable period.

I am heartless perhaps but ok with that

[Massive]

I'm definitely differently-abled, and have been now for quite a few years.
I have rheumatoid arthritis and, since I tore the ligaments in my lower left back, I now have an on and off back injury to deal with, it can go from my literally turning my head.
Part of me resents when I get looks from older people now, because I sit at the front on public transport, here if you're disabled or elderly they ask that the first few rows of seats are given up to the disabled or elderly, and since the disability act was passed here a few years back, a disabled person has more right to be on a bus than someone with a pushchair and child.
I appreciate when friends ask if I'm able to do the same things as they do, although I keep reminding them that I've had RA now since I was 18, so I know my limits, I know what I can and can't do, and do my own risk assessment ahead of time. At the same time it does feel like some of them are trying to hand me this mythical 'pass' like a get out of jail free card in monopoly, to just say, "It's okay, we'll just walk slower/talk to hym like hy's slow because hy's not the same as us." kind of attitude.
The majority of my friends know beyond a doubt if they treat me that way they'll find out pretty damn sharply not to do it again, ever. However, I also have a certain group of friends, who I now rarely make the effort to see, who tell me I can't call myself disabled, because I don't look it, you can't see my RA, I'm lucky enough that it hasn't progressed to the point where my knuckles and fingers are twisted with it, you can't see my back injury, apart from when I can barely walk, and then I sometimes get "Oh, you're just too fat, you need to lose weight." yeah, that'd help, but what helps more is not having ignorant feckers say things like that to me when I'm already having a day bad enough that I can't just use my cane to walk, I'm using crutches.
I often want to say to these people, okay, if you think living a life like this is so easy, spend a day in my shoes, see what it's like to walk around feeling like there's a mix of ground glass and acid poured into every joint, try walking with someone jabbing you in the back with a knife at every step, try pulling your head out your arse and realise that just because I'm not the same as you doesn't mean I can't understand english, I'm not stupid, it's just my body can't keep up with the rest of me, and this is how I'm going to be for the rest of my life.
I do have a badge for parking, which stays with me so I can use it in whichever car I'm in, I do sit in the seats at the front of the bus, I do have to sit, making sure either my crutches or cane are visible so I don't get elderly people glaring at me accusingly.
I do have a life, I just have to live it a little bit slower and more carefully than those who have nothing wrong with them.
I am a human being, I deserve the same respect as anyone else so why is it so damn hard to receive this?

Also wanted to add, for anyone who hadn't noticed 'here' for me is the UK...

[Ursy]

Interesting thread...

You know, I wonder every single day - what would it be like to be neurotypical? Would it make life any easier? Would I like it? Would I hate it? (I have Asperger's)

Anyway...

As for the subject of passes or not, I'm finding the concept difficult to negotiate in my head. On the one hand, it is *not* a level playing field... but on the other hand, I get what you're saying Adele - everyone should take responsibility for their own shitty behaviour. I guess the complicating factor for me - as some have said: sometimes what appears to be shitty behaviour REALLY isn't - and most people don't bother trying to clarify things first before jumping all over someone who never meant any offence in the first place. I've seen it happen COUNTLESS times.

I'm all for giving passes - but not just for DA people, everyone. Everyone has a bad day now and then, everyone stuffs up, expresses something badly, misreads something. It's just about giving folks the benefit of the doubt. It's giving them a chance to clarify things before I write them off as a jerk or an asshole. It's not assuming that my first interpretation was the correct and only interpretation.

So I guess by that definition, I'm not giving passes. Can they be passes if you give them to everyone? Lol. Maybe I've gone off on a tangent.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Liam

I don't want a pass, however I do want people to ask questions for clarification. My experience has been that people make assumptions, over and over, and they are wrong.

I don't think most people should have a pass, however there are those whom I believe should. When a brain injury occurs, the functions of the neurons, nerve tracts, or sections of the brain can be effected. If the neurons and nerve tracts are effected, they can be unable or have difficulty carrying messages that tell the brain what to do. This can result in Thinking Changes, Physical Changes, and Personality and Behavioral Changes. These changes can be temporary or permanent. They may cause impairment or complete inability to perform a function. One of these impairments, which may occur concerns social competence, it is one of the most complex tasks our brain encounters, and for some it doesn't happen. If someone lacks skill in this area, it is unreasonable to demand that it occur. Anger and punishment only adds to their frustration, and they only know that they did something wrong, but are left without a clue as to how to fix it. A person can read, write, take care of themselves and not be able to grasp the nuances that many take for granted. Their style of communication may seem inappropriate, when they are angry, scared or excited. I think this kind of person should get a pass.

I'm not sure a pass per say. I think showing this type of person how and why their behavior is inappropriate. There are some who have short term memory loss and will never get their behavior is inappropriate. That doesn't mean they get a pass, they get talked to, shown and yes umpteen times if needed. Look if we can't be compassionate about those who are in this community and who have mental abilities that aren't the same as ours, what does that say about us?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Liam

I don't want a pass, however I do want people to ask questions for clarification. My experience has been that people make assumptions, over and over, and they are wrong.

I don't think most people should have a pass, however there are those whom I believe should. When a brain injury occurs, the functions of the neurons, nerve tracts, or sections of the brain can be effected. If the neurons and nerve tracts are effected, they can be unable or have difficulty carrying messages that tell the brain what to do. This can result in Thinking Changes, Physical Changes, and Personality and Behavioral Changes. These changes can be temporary or permanent. They may cause impairment or complete inability to perform a function. One of these impairments, which may occur concerns social competence, it is one of the most complex tasks our brain encounters, and for some it doesn't happen. If someone lacks skill in this area, it is unreasonable to demand that it occur. Anger and punishment only adds to their frustration, and they only know that they did something wrong, but are left without a clue as to how to fix it. A person can read, write, take care of themselves and not be able to grasp the nuances that many take for granted. Their style of communication may seem inappropriate, when they are angry, scared or excited. I think this kind of person should get a pass.

As a person with severe brain injury I hear what you are saying. In fact I live with what you are saying.

In my brain injury rehab there were a lot of young men. A LOT of them were very sexually inappropriate. Hell, *I* was sexually inappropriate at first too. I would grab nurses rear ends and ask incredibly inappropriate sexual question. I was often kicked out of therapies. By the time I was done I had had 11 different occupational therapists. 11!!!!

At rehab, there was a warning, and then there was either suspension or expulsion from the program. At occupational therapy? Same thing.

Why is that do you think? The very places we are at for help are kicking us out! I used to get soooo angry.

Until I had an "aha" moment. That was as follows: when I am inappropriate with myself there is just me. With my loved ones? There is more lee-way for a pass, but they can walk away. To strangers? Well aha! No nurse deserves to be groped. Or made the object of sexual inappropriateness. The is not just "me" involved any longer when I am inappropriate or don't follow the rules. To put greater value on *me* because I am disabled erases the other human being involved. After being kicked out of 11 occupational therapy programs? I figured out that a little self gratification in my room was probably a WAY better idea than getting kicked out again, and I was running out of options.

I don't think it's fair to place greater equitable value on one human being than another. So if a person is on this site, is differently abled and been talked to and talked to and worked with? And still is sexually inappropriate, or calling names, or any other number of behaviors? Then consequences are in order.

I also think it's dangerous to assume that everyone is NOT differently abled just because you haven't been told otherwise. I have seen one differently abled person do all the things I mentioned above to another differently abled person and never have a clue that that was the case.

So again, I am not asking the site to lose it's compassion. In fact I am not even purporting to tell others what to do.

But I am asking you (specific and general) to not give me Adele a pass where you normally wouldn't give one. Please. It doesn't help me.

I may be a lot of things, but I have NOT been fighting for equality both in the Queer world and the Disabled world to have it taken away from me against my will.

Just like I got a marriage license last year here in CA. If I were to ever break up? I would fully expect to go through the same thing hetero couples go through. Divorce, sharing of property, child support, and spousal support should all be taken into consideration. I don't get to rip up my marriage license and not have the same consequences because "Queer marriage is now illegal".

I don't want to participate on this site, within my own community as anything other than an equal. I don't want differently abled to be the only lens you see me through, or the first thought when debating with me.

I'm willing to do the work, and follow the rules. I'm willing to learn. I can't do that if I never know I am wrong.

I can only truly make this plea for myself, but I would hope that all differently abled people would be treated as equals. Not separate but equal.

Edited to add: I am NOT asking for a lack of compassion, or for people to lose all patience and empathy with me. Or anyone else. Not at all. A pass does not = working with somebody. I've tried really hard to make that clear but feel I've got a big fat fail because I don't feel heard.

[Corkey]

Equality is great, and people should be held accountable, no matter how many times it needs to happen. With people who are fully capable of doing so. Some just aren't, and they are the ones I will work with, not give a pass to, but work with. I think we are saying the same thing. If we are referring to an individual, who is fully aware that their behavior is inappropriate, then yes they need to be held accountable. Ones rights end at the beginning of another's nose.

[SuperFemme]

Right now I really really want to be dramatic and declare the thread closed, apologize for bringing this up and make innuendos that I am leaving and boy will everyone be sorry. Really bad.

Instead.

I'm going to take a deep breath and try to figure out where I am not saying this correctly.

Is it that I haven't defined "the mythical *pass*"?

Am I shaming people who try hard to give room and leeway to DA people?

Am I just stuck on my thought and not hearing people?

[Liam]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Right now I really really want to be dramatic and declare the thread closed, apologize for bringing this up and make innuendos that I am leaving and boy will everyone be sorry. Really bad.

Instead.

I'm going to take a deep breath and try to figure out where I am not saying this correctly.

Is it that I haven't defined "the mythical *pass*"?

Am I shaming people who try hard to give room and leeway to DA people?

Am I just stuck on my thought and not hearing people?

I hear you saying that as a person with Traumatic Brain Injury, you are differently abled, and that you wish to be held accountable for what you say, how you say it, as well as how you behave. I hear you saying that you wish to be held accountable by the same standards of those who are not differently abled.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Right now I really really want to be dramatic and declare the thread closed, apologize for bringing this up and make innuendos that I am leaving and boy will everyone be sorry. Really bad.

Instead.

I'm going to take a deep breath and try to figure out where I am not saying this correctly.

Is it that I haven't defined "the mythical *pass*"?

Am I shaming people who try hard to give room and leeway to DA people?

Am I just stuck on my thought and not hearing people?

I for one think this is an invaluable thread, and no I think you are saying what you are just fine. if my opinion matters to you, and I think it does. No i don't feel shamed one iota. I do tend to call folks out on isms and for getting in other folks space, when it isn't their place to do so.

[Ursy]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Right now I really really want to be dramatic and declare the thread closed, apologize for bringing this up and make innuendos that I am leaving and boy will everyone be sorry. Really bad.

Instead.

I'm going to take a deep breath and try to figure out where I am not saying this correctly.

Is it that I haven't defined "the mythical *pass*"?

Am I shaming people who try hard to give room and leeway to DA people?

Am I just stuck on my thought and not hearing people?

No no, I think I hear you!

I guess it's just a very emotive topic, and there are all kinds of issues feeding into it and surrounding it, and its meaning has so many different nuances and so many different connotations to different people. It's a challenging subject, but I think we're going somewhere with it.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Liam

I don't want a pass, however I do want people to ask questions for clarification. My experience has been that people make assumptions, over and over, and they are wrong.


A common experience that could be avoided and just with a question or two without presumption. Feels like common courtesy and respect for another person and wanting to communicate- not any kind of pass.


I don't think most people should have a pass, however there are those whom I believe should. When a brain injury occurs, the functions of the neurons, nerve tracts, or sections of the brain can be effected. If the neurons and nerve tracts are effected, they can be unable or have difficulty carrying messages that tell the brain what to do. This can result in Thinking Changes, Physical Changes, and Personality and Behavioral Changes. These changes can be temporary or permanent. They may cause impairment or complete inability to perform a function. One of these impairments, which may occur concerns social competence, it is one of the most complex tasks our brain encounters, and for some it doesn't happen. If someone lacks skill in this area, it is unreasonable to demand that it occur. Anger and punishment only adds to their frustration, and they only know that they did something wrong, but are left without a clue as to how to fix it. A person can read, write, take care of themselves and not be able to grasp the nuances that many take for granted. Their style of communication may seem inappropriate, when they are angry, scared or excited. I think this kind of person should get a pass.

I have seen that look on my nephew's face so often- knowing he has made some kind of social faux pas just by how others are reacting to him, but not knowing how to deal with it. He feels very deeply about the possibility of hurting someone and totally frustrated with why he cannot always connect the dots like other people (social nuances and cues). He is very bright. So often, it is presumed that he doesn't care about how he might have hurt someone else.

Now he does a lot better because of treatment and organizations for people with Asperger’s and his own family coming out of denial about Asperger’s and getting help as well. For a long time, his Mom could not face it because of his birth defects and all of the physical limitations and medical procedures he had to deal with along with physical deformity. I think the diagnosis also just got lost within this tangled web, too. We all were damn protective of him.

He feels much more cared about when people just ask him about what he said because it gives him an opportunity to not only clarify, but deal with the social circumstances that have kept him back for so long. He feels like he is being treated like normal (he does use this term) people in many ways! Like he is not getting a pass, but some respect and the chance to work through things with others. Just regular human interaction that many of us take for granted.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I have seen that look on my nephew's face so often- knowing he has made some kind of social faux pas just by how others are reacting to him, but not knowing how to deal with it. He feels very deeply about the possibility of hurting someone and totally frustrated with why he cannot always connect the dots like other people (social nuances and cues). He is very bright. So often, it is presumed that he doesn't care about how he might have hurt someone else.

Now he does a lot better because of treatment and organizations for people with Asperger’s and his own family coming out of denial about Asperger’s and getting help as well. For a long time, his Mom could not face it because of his birth defects and all of the physical limitations and medical procedures he had to deal with along with physical deformity. I think the diagnosis also just got lost within this tangled web, too. We all were damn protective of him.

He feels much more cared about when people just ask him about what he said because it gives him an opportunity to not only clarify, but deal with the social circumstances that have kept him back for so long. He feels like he is being treated like normal (he does use this term) people in many ways! Like he is not getting a pass, but some respect and the chance to work through things with others. Just regular human interaction that many of us take for granted.

i agree.

he is not getting a pass.

[Apocalipstic]

Snow, in all respect and friendship...I do think that of someone crosses our boundaries 10000 times on this website (or anywhere) please put them on ignore and/or avoid them, walk away. The person who crosses your boundaries may bring joy and light to other people even though you might have a bad history with them. Some personalities just clash. It is unavoidable. Again, nothing against you or anyone.

There are some good , well meaning people who make really bad social errors. I do sometimes. You have witnessed some of them. Somehow people mostly seem to forgive me thank goodness.

It is personally devastating when I make these errors. I think it does anyone who makes these types of errors we work so had to avoid. Sometimes we try so hard, it makes the errors worse.

Adele, I have and will continue to treat you as an equal, there is no question for me on that subject and never has been. I don't pity you, you don't pity me. I think this is a great thread.

On the subject of rules, we have them and they should be followed. Can we have empathy for people and explain over and over the rules? Yes! Which is why I am glad the Admins and Mods go with a taking time off thing, rather than an outright ban most of the time.

So rules yes, ignore button yes, empathy yes.