Open Letter: Dear Femme

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by blush

I'm not sure what you mean by "share the space?" With who? Femmes?

That'd be nice. I've noticed that all too frequently the top threads are all about masculine-based identities. As important as these conversations are, for all of us, they frequently overshadow ANY femme conversation. This has been my experience in real time as well.

Hi, blush

Well, what was in my mind at the time of that comment was masculine-based identity space. But.... I like your understanding of it a lot better. To be honest, I've just started to view more femme space here. Mostly just reading and trying not to interrupt.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Hi, blush

Well, what was in my mind at the time of that comment was masculine-based identity space. But.... I like your understanding of it a lot better. To be honest. I've just started to view more femme space here. Mostly just reading and trying not to interrupt.

Yo
I'd be interested to hear from y'all what YOU(and by YOU I mean all y'all, not YOU personally, Kosmo) can do to change how we are perceived.

[Diva]

Am I being too simplistic to think any of this can be solved with 2 words?

Play nice.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by blush

Yo
I'd be interested to hear from y'all what YOU(and by YOU I mean all y'all, not YOU personally, Kosmo) can do to change how we are perceived.

Hi, blush *smiles*

I think I understand. If not, I expect you to let me know. You're asking the folks in this thread what can be done to change the perception, right? Please allow me to offer some thoughts.

How do you feel you are perceived? Do you feel invisible? Do you feel you take a back seat position to others? Do you feel that your opinion, statements, or thoughts are not considered or taken into account? Do you feel an unbalance in the dynamics of butch-femme or male/masculine-female/feminine engagement, here and in the world around you. It does carry over.

When I interact with my sweetheart, she is very clear in her communication to me. Do I feel a privilege sometimes that shadows her needs, desires? Yes, I have been guilty of that. I think it comes from fighting for recognition myself. In the world at large where the difference between me and the other worldly (societies majority as a whole) challenges my very existence. I get caught in the 'it's all about me' syndrome. My views, my opinions, etc.

When this happens, she speaks up, challenges me and I have to stop and think about what she's said. I can't think of an example off hand.

She realizes that she herself also walks in that ghost like veil of invisibility even if she doesn't physically look any different than the next person. You know what I mean? Being careful about sharing her personal life, assumptions by straight men, women, etc. I need to be sensitive to that. I need to let her know that she is not alone in dealing with it, even if only wanting to vent about it, *smiles*.

I think 'we' need to say more than thank you to all the females/femmes for supporting us, how powerful the femme dynamic seems to some of us, how we can't live without you. But is that the only sentiment you really want to hear. What does it mean? We are all individuals that want recognition for who we are, what we think, not only how it compliments or supports another. Truth is, I can live without the femme, but I would rather live with it.*winks*

Here in the forum, all of you need to speak your mind. Don't settle for the back seat or a 'good girl' sentiment (I tease my girl 'cause she gets riled when she sees that). Don't allow the interruption of conversation (which is rude to begin with).

My girl tells me when she is not happy about something and I damn well better be paying attention, lol. But, and this is important to our relationship, she listens when I'm not happy about something too.

Yes, all y'all *winks* need to change the perception. Just give the rest of us a clear understanding of what it is you expect.

I think I've talked too much, *snickers*

I have to add that my relationship dynamic with my girl is such that if I were to interrupt her and ask for a beer, I think she would most likely look at me with a 'really?' expression on her face. I've never done it and don't ever expect to, *chuckles*

[evolveme]

Kosmo, I see that you decided to post and I need you to know that this confuses me. Be that as it may, I'm going to give you my honest response, while asking you to understand that I recognize your sincerity, your appreciation for Femme, your love for your partner, and your wish that we be seen. I appreciate all of that.

Still, I'm struggling here because it feels wrong to me that a butch person would answer this question - how we can 'change how we are perceived' - and honestly, I just don't feel it's appropriate. I just don't feel it's your place.

Some of your post feels patronizing. I get that this isn't how you intended it to feel. But, that's how it sounds. To me.

I mean, don't tell me what you think I need to do to change how I am perceived. If I'm not being seen, or if I am not being perceived above the din of masculinity, your voice telling me how to go about it is only adding to the problem.

I don't need to know how 'your girl' is clear in her communication in the context of this question, because, you know, so am I. I'm pretty damn clear most of the time and I don't need a masculine or male someone to tell me why that's a good thing or how sexy or pretty it is, because, man, it just is.

Please do not misread me, Kosmo. This is not personal between me, e, and you Kosmo. It just seemed to me that you hadn't read the thread entirely before you posted and that is important to me. The answers to your entire second paragraph can be found here. I don't think they need to be reiterated unless a femme decides for herself that she'd like to discuss them again. What I mean is that, this discussion should not be lead (as they too often tend to be) by a butch or masculine person.

Thank you for not taking me personally. I really, really am trying to talk about the concept of masculine-over. That's partly what this thread is about.

Originally Posted by Kosmo

<snip>

How do you feel you are perceived? Do you feel invisible? Do you feel you take a back seat position to others? Do you feel that your opinion, statements, or thoughts are not considered or taken into account? Do you feel an unbalance in the dynamics of butch-femme or male/masculine-female/feminine engagement, here and in the world around you. It does carry over.

<snipy snip>

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Kosmo, I see that you decided to post and I need you to know that this confuses me. Be that as it may, I'm going to give you my honest response, while asking you to understand that I recognize your sincerity, your appreciation for Femme, your love for your partner, and your wish that we be seen. I appreciate all of that.

Still, I'm struggling here because it feels wrong to me that a butch person would answer this question - how we can 'change how we are perceived' - and honestly, I just don't feel it's appropriate. I just don't feel it's your place.

Some of your post feels patronizing. I get that this isn't how you intended it to feel. But, that's how it sounds. To me.

I mean, don't tell me what you think I need to do to change how I am perceived. If I'm not being seen, or if I am not being perceived above the din of masculinity, your voice telling me how to go about it is only adding to the problem.

I don't need to know how 'your girl' is clear in her communication in the context of this question, because, you know, so am I. I'm pretty damn clear most of the time and I don't need a masculine or male someone to tell me why that's a good thing or how sexy or pretty it is, because, man, it just is.

Please do not misread me, Kosmo. This is not personal between me, e, and you Kosmo. It just seemed to me that you hadn't read the thread entirely before you posted and that is important to me. The answers to your entire second paragraph can be found here. I don't think they need to be reiterated unless a femme decides for herself that she'd like to discuss them again. What I mean is that, this discussion should not be lead (as they too often tend to be) by a butch or masculine person.

Thank you for not taking me personally. I really, really am trying to talk about the concept of masculine-over. That's partly what this thread is about.

Fair enough. I leave you to it.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Hi, blush *smiles*

How do you feel you are perceived? Do you feel invisible? Do you feel you take a back seat position to others? Do you feel that your opinion, statements, or thoughts are not considered or taken into account? Do you feel an unbalance in the dynamics of butch-femme or male/masculine-female/feminine engagement, here and in the world around you. It does carry over.

She realizes that she herself also walks in that ghost like veil of invisibility even if she doesn't physically look any different than the next person. You know what I mean? Being careful about sharing her personal life, assumptions by straight men, women, etc. I need to be sensitive to that. I need to let her know that she is not alone in dealing with it, even if only wanting to vent about it, *smiles*.

I think 'we' need to say more than thank you to all the females/femmes for supporting us, how powerful the femme dynamic seems to some of us, how we can't live without you. But is that the only sentiment you really want to hear. What does it mean? We are all individuals that want recognition for who we are, what we think, not only how it compliments or supports another. Truth is, I can live without the femme, but I would rather live with it.*winks*

Here in the forum, all of you need to speak your mind. Don't settle for the back seat or a 'good girl' sentiment (I tease my girl 'cause she gets riled when she sees that). Don't allow the interruption of conversation (which is rude to begin with).

My girl tells me when she is not happy about something and I damn well better be paying attention, lol. But, and this is important to our relationship, she listens when I'm not happy about something too.

Yes, all y'all *winks* need to change the perception. Just give the rest of us a clear understanding of what it is you expect.

I think I've talked too much, *snickers*

I have to add that my relationship dynamic with my girl is such that if I were to interrupt her and ask for a beer, I think she would most likely look at me with a 'really?' expression on her face. I've never done it and don't ever expect to, *chuckles*

Your post really got me thinking.

I always stumble over the word "supportive" when femmes are described. Because I think that is the crux of the problem. We are ALWAYS supporting. We're not jock straps, yanno? But it diminishes us. A femme's partner is situationally supportive (as in, my baby was supportive when I had my surgery), but femmes are generally and overall described as supportive.

What would I like to see? I'd like to see more recognition that we walk beside our partners. We're not in the background bucking y'all up. I'd like to see more recognition that although we may partner better with certain "types" of butches or trans fellas, every femme I know are fiercely protective of all of y'all. And, I would certainly like to see less "labeling" of who a femme is based on who she fucks. We're completely capable of deciding which community we do and do not belong to. And it has no bearing on who we are currently partnered with.

I'd also like to add that, for me, there is a huge difference between a dynamic and internalized misogony. A dynamic is a choice and consensual, and both participants are "getting something" from it. Internalized misogony is a pattern of behaviors that may not be consensual(obviously this is not a full definition).

And now I'm off to get Goofy a beer before he smacks my ass.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by blush

I always stumble over the word "supportive" when femmes are described. Because I think that is the crux of the problem. We are ALWAYS supporting. We're not jock straps, yanno? But it diminishes us. A femme's partner is situationally supportive (as in, my baby was supportive when I had my surgery), but femmes are generally and overall described as supportive.

What would I like to see? I'd like to see more recognition that we walk beside our partners. We're not in the background bucking y'all up. I'd like to see more recognition that although we may partner better with certain "types" of butches or trans fellas, every femme I know are fiercely protective of all of y'all. And, I would certainly like to see less "labeling" of who a femme is based on who she fucks. We're completely capable of deciding which community we do and do not belong to. And it has no bearing on who we are currently partnered with.

I love the parts that I bolded: yesyesyes! I am sick to death of being thought of as 'supportive'. Supportive of what, for what?! No one has an easy road of it so I would love to see the 'supportive' stripped from 'femme'. (If a butch requires constant support (in whatever form), that butch needs a mom not a lovah.)

C's Perspective:

And another thing: Show me (everyone) the respect we deserve. I don't want to hear a butch that doesn't own or wear a suit defining their desire for *high femme* as heels, stockings and skirts. Nor do I want to hear a butch define for anyone else what is or is not their own particular *femme*. I am sick of this hierarchy of *femme* and I really am sick of butches participating in that discussion (fueling the fire).

We're all worth it, F anyone who says otherwise.

[Arwen]

Labels.

I am one of those who actually likes labels. I like to stick them on myself and then watch other people's brains turn to mush when they try to figure out how all of those labels can be one person.

When I am in a partnership, I like "taking care" of my other half. It feeds my soul. I do this on a fairly instinctive basis. It is not because I think it is the "girl" role. I do this for my friends as well. It is the "Arwen" role.

I believe that when we make a case for femme as anything we define it as, we must make sure that we are not limiting that "anything" to anything we are comfortable with.

I like to cook. When I shared a house with Goofy, I enjoyed feeding him. (please note he cooked as well). I do not know if he got the same enjoyment out of cooking for me as I did for him. (Also, for those that do not know, Goof and I are just friends. )

But cooking, for me, is an expression of who I am. Not my femme self. My Arwen self. I do it because it is a way to put some of my creativity out there in a tangible way.

So, if I enjoy cooking, does that make me an accomplice to the male-centric domination of our culture?

I don't think so.

I think if I got upset that my partner cooked, THEN I would be contributing.

I do know that I've made jokes about a butch's place is at the BBQ. I personally do not enjoy BBQing. I like eating it and fixing it...but the actual standing by the BBQ? Not so much.

Yeah, I do see that as a "boy" thing. And that is my own lightbulb on how I foster this male-centric attitude.

Now, mind you, this does NOT mean I am going to hit the BBQ. I will however change my language around it being the butch's job. How about in my world, it is anyone's job but mine.

How about a thread challenge? We are all doing so fabulously at conversing here.

Who else can come up with a personal, concrete example of what you (not generic, but personal) do to foster even in a small way, the idea that femme is somehow defined/refined by butch?

What labels do you love? hate? What do you somehow see as your role that possibly is not?

Yes, I know I'm rambling. I do that.

[Lynn]

In my butch-femme relationship, our identities and attributes interact to the extent that we define who we are to each other. I, in this b-f relationship, am probably not exactly the same as I would be in another relationship with another butch. The relationship doesn't define who I am. It impacts on other aspects of life, and, can affect them greatly. The same could be said for other identities, like who I am at work, at home, as a mother, or whatever else I assert as my role.

As blush said, I don't want to be identified by who I choose to fuck. It's one aspect of me. I agree that labels are useful. Labels and language are meaningful and powerful.That is why I have yet to find myself comfortable with being identified as a femme. I've said elsewhere, and probably here...to me, and for me, femme is an attribute, not an identity.

How do I contribute to the idea that femme is defined or refined by butch? I don't know. I don't equate the masculinity of a butch with male-centric (that means "patriarchal"--right?). I have NO expectatation of any trappings (I think they're trappings) of stereotypical male-female roles and duties in my relationship, but I don't have any problem where they would appear to be so, for me or for anyone else. I think we've come to the point where we have the right to be, without apology.

I've been working on this for far too long...might I be self-censoring? Perhaps. So, it's time to post.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Labels.

I am one of those who actually likes labels. I like to stick them on myself and then watch other people's brains turn to mush when they try to figure out how all of those labels can be one person.

When I am in a partnership, I like "taking care" of my other half. It feeds my soul. I do this on a fairly instinctive basis. It is not because I think it is the "girl" role. I do this for my friends as well. It is the "Arwen" role.

I believe that when we make a case for femme as anything we define it as, we must make sure that we are not limiting that "anything" to anything we are comfortable with.

I like to cook. When I shared a house with Goofy, I enjoyed feeding him. (please note he cooked as well). I do not know if he got the same enjoyment out of cooking for me as I did for him. (Also, for those that do not know, Goof and I are just friends. )

But cooking, for me, is an expression of who I am. Not my femme self. My Arwen self. I do it because it is a way to put some of my creativity out there in a tangible way.

So, if I enjoy cooking, does that make me an accomplice to the male-centric domination of our culture?

I don't think so.

I think if I got upset that my partner cooked, THEN I would be contributing.

I do know that I've made jokes about a butch's place is at the BBQ. I personally do not enjoy BBQing. I like eating it and fixing it...but the actual standing by the BBQ? Not so much.

Yeah, I do see that as a "boy" thing. And that is my own lightbulb on how I foster this male-centric attitude.

Now, mind you, this does NOT mean I am going to hit the BBQ. I will however change my language around it being the butch's job. How about in my world, it is anyone's job but mine.

How about a thread challenge? We are all doing so fabulously at conversing here.

Who else can come up with a personal, concrete example of what you (not generic, but personal) do to foster even in a small way, the idea that femme is somehow defined/refined by butch?

What labels do you love? hate? What do you somehow see as your role that possibly is not?

Yes, I know I'm rambling. I do that.

I have not spent hardly any time as an unattached femme. I met someone and then immediately was defined by that person and his ID. The fact that my partner is trans has brought many suprising interactions my way both in the queer world and the straight world. I wish I could say that they were good surprises. So sometimes I feel like I have no clue who I am as a femme and that all the word means is who I am partnered with. That is why I love this thread!!!!!

I love all labels. I am a labely kind of gal. The supportive role and label we have talked about is one I don't like sometimes. As a woman I am expected to be supportive of everyone, all the time. That gets old and it is my mistake and my responsibility to support myself first always. I don't do that and that is a problem. It is the age old lament I think. When is there time for me?

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Labels.

I am one of those who actually likes labels. I like to stick them on myself and then watch other people's brains turn to mush when they try to figure out how all of those labels can be one person.

When I am in a partnership, I like "taking care" of my other half. It feeds my soul. I do this on a fairly instinctive basis. It is not because I think it is the "girl" role. I do this for my friends as well. It is the "Arwen" role.

I believe that when we make a case for femme as anything we define it as, we must make sure that we are not limiting that "anything" to anything we are comfortable with.

I like to cook. When I shared a house with Goofy, I enjoyed feeding him. (please note he cooked as well). I do not know if he got the same enjoyment out of cooking for me as I did for him. (Also, for those that do not know, Goof and I are just friends. )

But cooking, for me, is an expression of who I am. Not my femme self. My Arwen self. I do it because it is a way to put some of my creativity out there in a tangible way.

So, if I enjoy cooking, does that make me an accomplice to the male-centric domination of our culture?

I don't think so.

I think if I got upset that my partner cooked, THEN I would be contributing.

I do know that I've made jokes about a butch's place is at the BBQ. I personally do not enjoy BBQing. I like eating it and fixing it...but the actual standing by the BBQ? Not so much.

Yeah, I do see that as a "boy" thing. And that is my own lightbulb on how I foster this male-centric attitude.

Now, mind you, this does NOT mean I am going to hit the BBQ. I will however change my language around it being the butch's job. How about in my world, it is anyone's job but mine.

How about a thread challenge? We are all doing so fabulously at conversing here.

Who else can come up with a personal, concrete example of what you (not generic, but personal) do to foster even in a small way, the idea that femme is somehow defined/refined by butch?

What labels do you love? hate? What do you somehow see as your role that possibly is not?

Yes, I know I'm rambling. I do that.

I'm not going to contribute anything new at this time, but I do so love this post. I relate to it (and you!) on many levels.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by June

Okay, I am all caught up now. For now.
Because I am often not "A good girl", therefore, I must be... masculine? Because if Femme = Feminine, doesn't Butch = masculine? At least to some degree? For a lot of us?

And each of us has to reconcile it within ourselves, and if we are brave we talk about it, lay it on the table, so to speak and hope that others will try to understand outside of their own belief system.

Dear June,

Having a voice doesn't make you masculine. It makes you human.

Love,
Poodle

Dear Poodle... Thank you for reminding June of her humanness and in doing so, reminding me.

I am a woman of peace... Conflict breaks me and the good little girl in me comes out, because sometimes my voice is lost. I flinch at a silencing hand and I dare to revolt against it.

When I find my ground and the big voiced Femme in me appears, I stand up, not to be heard, but to stand tall within myself.

I have been silenced, though only for a moment in time, as I do remember who I am, and shame on the energy who has attempted to silence me, because when I do wake up and hear the voice of the speaker, I walk, and I will walk slowly with great belief in myself. Sometimes without even uttering a goodbye.

What a brilliant topic.

Julie

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by June

This thread is about Femmes, but if we are also talking about how we buy into the reality of Male-centric behavior, I want to touch on how I am witnessing the lack of respect between SOME Butches and Transmen. The pissing contest mentality, the scrambling for power, the stepping on and over each other in what appears to me to be an attempt to create or perpetuate a heirarchy where none (in my opinion) needs to exist. Femme Heirarchy/Butch Heirarchy/Masculine Heirarchy -- All it is doing is dividing us further and it sickens me. No one should have to fight for space *here* the way we all have to *there* (outside). Somehow, there has to be a way for us to be able to admit our internalized feelings (even the ugly ones) in ways that allow us to be introspective without making anyone feel less than.

[/B]

I loved this, Junebug.

You are so mighty, mighty.