Open Letter: Dear Femme

[blush]

Originally Posted by Lynn

.

As blush said, I don't want to be identified by who I choose to fuck. It's one aspect of me. I agree that labels are useful. Labels and language are meaningful and powerful.That is why I have yet to find myself comfortable with being identified as a femme. I've said elsewhere, and probably here...to me, and for me, femme is an attribute, not an identity.

How do I contribute to the idea that femme is defined or refined by butch? I don't know. I don't equate the masculinity of a butch with male-centrict?(that means "patriarchal"--right). I have NO expectatation of any trappings (I think they're trappings) of stereotypical male-female roles and duties in my relationship, but I don't have any problem where they would appear to be so, for me or for anyone else. I think we've come to the point where we have the right to be, without apology.
YES! YES! YES!
I've been working on this for far too long...might I be self-censoring? Perhaps. So, it's time to post.

Femme certainly means different things to different people. For some femmes, it is their gender, for others, it is their sexuality, and for others, it is a descriptor.

For me, masculinity simply describes the energy. Our counterparts are more masculine than femmes.

My understanding of male-centric is a "centering" or anchoring of our community(butch-femme) around masculinity. It differs, in my mind, from patriarchy because we do not depend upon a "father-figure."

Originally Posted by June

Because I am often not "A good girl", therefore, I must be... masculine? Because if Femme = Feminine, doesn't Butch = masculine? At least to some degree? For a lot of us?

And each of us has to reconcile it within ourselves, and if we are brave we talk about it, lay it on the table, so to speak and hope that others will try to understand outside of their own belief system.

Yeah...It's that whole "you throw ALMOST as good as a boy."

Originally Posted by Diva

I appreciated this post....so much.

And I guess I'm oblivious and/or naive....as I didn't realize that there WAS a 'public & cultural perception' with other femmes.....now....when I lived as a wife in the church of Christ? Oh HELL yeah.....it was that "good little woman" syndrome....can You even imagine me in that role? I was very good. But I nearly lost my sanity because I nearly lost myself.

And now You know.

Indeed. To find our own truths can sometimes be lonely. But once they're found, they're so liberating.

I love this thread!

Aren't there always private and public perceptions of just about anything? The public/private perception of a teacher? A doctor? A mother? A wife?

Laughing at you as a COC wife...JesusChristonacracker...

[Diva]

Originally Posted by blush

Laughing at you as a COC wife...JesusChristonacracker...

LOL! That pretty much sums it up, for sure!

[christie]

I have been reading and rereading this thread, trying to wrap my head around some of the points of view and perspectives. Some things really hit home… others not so much, but I recognize that they are valid points of view.

What I am hearing is a majority consensus that we femmes are seen as supporting cast members rather than the headliners.

That we are seen as “less than” our masculine counterparts.

That we are seen as “less than” in our queer community.

That we have been silenced because our presenting energy isn’t masculine.

That we are the sum of our roles rather than an entity in our own right.

I also think that quite a bit of what is being spoken here is very generalized and vague. Perhaps it’s just that I am not in the majority in my experiences of navigating the world as a femme. Maybe it’s that like for some, femme is just another facet of me. If I start listing all that is Christie, femme, while important, is just an ingredient in the recipe of me.

While I can certainly understand all of these things, for the most part, they just don’t apply to me; or at least they don’t apply to the majority of my lived years. Is it that I feel like they don’t apply in my “real life” and that I see it happening more in online communities? Have we considered that the surge in BDSMers in the BF world might have something to do with the perceptions of being silenced, of being seen as less than and in a supportive role? It seems that the majority of kinksters in the Top realm of power exchange relationships are predominantly masculine and that most bottoms are feminine. That in M/s dynamics, the “s” is akin to chattel, without a voice or expected to have/use a brain, that in D/s, a submissive is consenting to the Dominant’s will.

I would hope that no one interprets my observation above about BDSM as anything but more in that I think as the subcultures of the queer world grow and expand, so does the coloring of our perceptions. I think that as a subculture within a subculture (BDSM within BF) becomes more highly visible and is the “chatter (latest, greatest new thing)” that “voice” or that image can be seen as the collective view.

In my early adulthood, yes, I tried to live the life my parents mapped out for me. It was very apparent to me that I could never be “that” woman. In the end, I had to give myself permission to live my own life. I think that all young adults, no matter gender or ID, have to move through this process.

Even in living that lie, I was still who I am today. Perhaps not as enhanced and evolved, but the core of who I am has always been there. Different qualities taking on more presence, or less presence, as I grew, matured and moved through the world.

There was a point made by evolveme about who we are outside our roles. For me, I think that even in shedding the labels, the attributes of that role are still present. For example, if I had not had the role of “mother”, I would still be a nurturer. I don’t think I would have quite the same depth of nurturing ability. For me, being a mother makes me be “better.” My perception of what being a mother means has meant those qualities, which I already possessed, were brought to the surface and utilized and challenged.

I don’t use males or masculinity as the scale by which I am measured, unless, of course, it’s to be superior. I never “threw a ball like a girl”; I always “threw a ball better than anyone else.”

I do think that my motherinlaw’s view of women has caused me to be more in “competition” with what she considers male superiority. When we were taking bids for floor refinishing, she said something about my crackhead, IQ of a piece of cardboard brotherinlaw and how she wanted to rent the equipment for him to refinish his own floors. I looked at Jess and said, “Oh fuck that. If he can do it, so can we.” Moral of the story, four weeks of backbreaking labor and love and we have amazing floors… all done at the hands of two women.

A man who inherited the business from his father employs me. Both are very staunch, conservative republicans with stay home wives and are both the walking, breathing epitome of male privilege. They had never had a woman in power at their company, in its entire 56 year history until I joined them 1.5 years ago. I could tell at the beginning that I would have to stand toe to toe with the elder so as to not be pigeonholed into what I felt his ideas of my role would be. The son, who is my age, has said that I have changed his father’s perceptions of women. Just last week, I was promoted and will be taking over the helm of the business in January. I am not so naïve as to think that I won’t have a struggle ahead of me just because I wasn’t born with a penis.

I am a strong, independent, intelligent, feminine, imperfectly perfect, simply complex, female entity. My relationship does not define me. My partnering with a beautifully exquisite masculine female does not define me. Demanding that my voice be heard does not make me less feminine. It does not make me more masculine. Running the world and being Queen of all I see doesn’t make me less feminine or more masculine. It just makes me intelligently strong. It’s just me.

For me, it’s not about letting the world chose my role within it… It’s about me choosing how I am viewed in the world.

Christie

[SuperFemme]

Actually I know of many Femme Tops/Daddy's. I also don't believe that the 's' in M/S is in any way, shape or form chattel. It is all about a power exchange. Nothing (and I mean nothing) goes un-negotiated in any leather relationship.

We are claiming our sexuality, releasing the shame. That makes people nervous.
I find it MOST interesting that women find it uncomfortable to see a Femme as a Dominant. Let's not even bring up a Femme with a cock. Oh good lord! That gets people twitterpated in a not good way.

While our experiences are all individual, we have a safe space here to speak. I think that is the only group think going on here. Let your voices be heard. Remember, Femmes are like snowflakes (actually, people are) there are no two exactly alike. Sociology, upbringing, culture, geographical locations and race are all factors that can greatly affect how we move through the world.

[christie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Actually I know of many Femme Tops/Daddy's. I also don't believe that the 's' in M/S is in any way, shape or form chattel. It is all about a power exchange. Nothing (and I mean nothing) goes un-negotiated in any leather relationship.

We are claiming our sexuality, releasing the shame. That makes people nervous.
I find it MOST interesting that women find it uncomfortable to see a Femme as a Dominant. Let's not even bring up a Femme with a cock. Oh good lord! That gets people twitterpated in a not good way.

While our experiences are all individual, we have a safe space here to speak. I think that is the only group think going on here. Let your voices be heard. Remember, Femmes are like snowflakes (actually, people are) there are no two exactly alike. Sociology, upbringing, culture, geographical locations and race are all factors that can greatly affect how we move through the world.

I, too, know my share of Femme Tops/Daddys. Gee, I even resembled that at one point in my journey; however removed it is from my life today.

Again, my experiences with M/s couples who are 24/7, part of the power exchange is that the "s" willingly consents to giving up autonomy.

I merely brought this up as an example of how we (the collective femme population) might have gotten to this point. This place where we are examining who and what we are and where we choose to carve out our niche in our worlds.

I appreciate the different experiences and the opportunity to see the world through others' eyes.

[Apocalipstic]

The way BSDM comes in to play for me is that if I am around anyone from the B/F community and someone orders their partner to do something for them (example from Arwen) it is difficult to know when it's a BDSM thing or a really bad manners sexist thing.

Also, in my area, it is hella shocking for a Femme to be a Top or have a dick....another thread....

On to another subject....

OK, so something strange happened last week. A friend told me that his G/F thinks Cynthia (my Butch G/F) is soooo much more intelligent, and it's so great to be able to talk just to her about intelligent things.....blah blah. Another friend said that people automatically assume Cynthia is more intelligent because she is more masculine and men are automatically supposed to be smarter. WTFFFFFFFFFFF??????

Then, chatting with another friend this weekend, I mentioned how differently I dress when I do or do not have a G/F. How when I am single I would never go to the bar in a dress and heels, because I need to look more in control. WTFFFFFFFFFFFF?

Do I maybe use Cynthia's masculinity as a shield?
Do I dumb it down around people when we are together and let her be the smart one?
Do I just look dumb?
What does this mean?



Is this reaction and my desire to tell everyone who has the biggest dick in our house, my inner 16 year old boy having a tantrum?

My Femme is intelligent and wears a big blue opalescent dick.

[SuperFemme]

I've often wondered about the whole perception of the BDSM thing.

Women (specifically Femmes) are not thought of as powerful. Men come with built in power. Women/Femmes have to fight for it and they tend to horde it. So it feels semi reactionary when people get aghast at a Femme giving her power away willingly. It feels like betrayal to some people. But it's NOT! We have so much power. The decision to give or take power is powerful in and of itself.

There is also the duality of a Femme being dominant. It is frowned upon in a 'doesn't she know her place' kind of way. Remember, Femme is a supporting role. Just not TOO supportive in the imagined hierarchy.

Using the word chattel makes me uncomfortable. It feels like it sets up an unfair perception of such relationships. One cannot willingly consent to something and then be deemed to have no voice.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Please don't stop posting. *smiles*

Kosmo, thank you for that. I appreciate the support.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Still, I'm struggling here because it feels wrong to me that a butch person would answer this question - how we can 'change how we are perceived' - and honestly, I just don't feel it's appropriate. I just don't feel it's your place.
<snip>
Please do not misread me, Kosmo. This is not personal between me, e, and you Kosmo.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}} You know I love you, darlin, and I admire your mind intensely. I recognize what you want from the thread, and I heard you saying you didn't want this to be personal between you and Kosmo.

I dunno how Kosmo took it, but reading your post, it felt personal to me. Please let me explain why?

You said in the beginning of your post that Kosmo's choice to post confused you. Two things stand out for me. The first is, early in the thread we as a group said Butch/Trans input was welcome, and we engaged in conversations with the Butches and Transmen who posted. The second is, Blush asked Kosmo a direct question; she specifically asked for that post. Wouldn't have ignoring her been a subtle form of silencing her? It would certainly have been utterly rude!

What bothers me now is that to me, personally, it seems like Kosmo has been silenced--and not just Kosmo, but by extension all the Butches/Transmen in this thread. I read all those posts saying "why are we always the ones who are "supportive"? Why can't our partners be supportive?" here is a masculine person being supportive, answering a question asked by someone in the community.... but the response we give is "please don't."

I fully admit this is simply how I read it. Maybe I'm the only one who sees it that way, and if so, well, I apologize for derailing the thread.

I just know that I do not live in a vacuum and I cannot be authentically me without deeply examining all the parts of my life.... and half the examining comes from without, from testing my own thoughts, perceptions, and opinions up against those of other people. The people I value the most for that examining are always the people in my own community, whatever their identities might happen to be... I am looking always for the thoughts which shed light on my soul, and I find them as often from Butches and Transmen as from Femmes. I don't wish for any of us to be silenced.

Please know that I understand your goal for the thread is to have a deep conversation among Femmes; I appreciate your willingness to shepherd this convo... but if Butch/Trans voices are not welcome as part of that conversation, then I think we should be really clear and say so outright to everyone, and we should as a group stop inviting their participation.

Originally Posted by June

She had just voiced her own internal sexism about my demeanor. My forthrightness, my sometimes strident tone, my confidence, my...everything.

Because I am often not "A good girl", therefore, I must be... masculine? Because if Femme = Feminine, doesn't Butch = masculine? At least to some degree? For a lot of us?

And each of us has to reconcile it within ourselves, and if we are brave we talk about it, lay it on the table, so to speak and hope that others will try to understand outside of their own belief system.

*wry smile* I would say that since the very definition of Butch (unless we changed it again and someone forgot to send me the memo) is "Female Masculinity," that yes, Butch equals masculine to some degree. And I have seen this before, June, but in a sad way, Femmes deciding that since they are not stereotypical Good Girls, nor even stereotypical Good Women, that they must therefore not be Femme, must have been mistaken all those years, must not ever have been Femme, must be Butch instead.

Binaries that have no elastic to them make me sad. Why does it have to be either/or, and so narrowly defined? But that's what society teaches/preaches.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

As a woman I am expected to be supportive of everyone, all the time. That gets old and it is my mistake and my responsibility to support myself first always. I don't do that and that is a problem. It is the age old lament I think. When is there time for me?

Only when you take it, darlin. Only when you decide that you, too, have the same value and worth as any other human being. Only when you break through the bonds of society's conditioning and insist, not just to everyone you have already taught to devalue you, but to yourself--for you are the one who devalues yourself to begin with--that your time is your own.

If you have small children, you may have to pay for that time with cash, to a babysitter. Think about how much you might pay a babysitter... and what that says about your estimate of your own value as a human being. I find most Femmes to be absolutely priceless, value beyond measuring... but someone who is struggling with the whole idea may only believe she herself is worth that five or ten dollars she pays a babysitter.

Someone who cannot "justify" paying the babysitter at all? Actions speak louder than words: she believes she is worthless.

Whether one has children or not, it's worth thinking about. What message would you want to give to [your] children about the value of adult women? Are they intrinsically priceless? Or are they barely worth the money it would take to pay a babysitter?

Originally Posted by christie0918

....I think as the subcultures of the queer world grow and expand, so does the coloring of our perceptions. I think that as a subculture within a subculture (BDSM within BF) becomes more highly visible and is the “chatter (latest, greatest new thing)” that “voice” or that image can be seen as the collective view.

This is a good point, christie, and I ran into it repeatedly when I was newbie to the b-f world. Because I was new and also not part of the BDSM world, I didn't recognize for a couple of years that the attitudes I ran into were not typical of "Butches" but were, in fact, a subculture. Looking back, I think some of the Butches who were not part of that subculture were influenced by it anyway, because I found the attitudes pervasive for a while.

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

OK, so something strange happened last week. A friend told me that his G/F thinks Cynthia (my Butch G/F) is soooo much more intelligent, and it's so great to be able to talk just to her about intelligent things.....blah blah. Another friend said that people automatically assume Cynthia is more intelligent because she is more masculine and men are automatically supposed to be smarter. WTFFFFFFFFFFF??????

*reminds you* "bit" is NOT about pony play, "bit" is NOT about pony play....

I utterly HATE it when people assume the more masculine one is automatically the brains of the outfit. [My screen name came from that.] I'm not gonna be with anyone who is not majorly intelligent, since intelligence is a big turn-on for me, but really now.... I am more than just nice. I am more than just a Good Girl.

My intelligent partner has some pretty high standards of his own in the Intelligence Department. He is not with me because I'm glamorous, yanno? *eyeroll from the Homespun girl*

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Then, chatting with another friend this weekend, I mentioned how differently I dress when I do or do not have a G/F. How when I am single I would never go to the bar in a dress and heels, because I need to look more in control. WTFFFFFFFFFFFF?

Do I maybe use Cynthia's masculinity as a shield?

Maybe... I know that in situations of danger or possible discomfort, I use Gryph's masculinity as a shield.

I also know that I use my own clothing choices as a shield.

I also use just being partnered as a shield.

I would never go into a bar wearing "flirty feminine" clothes if I did not want to come out of the bar on someone's arm. That would just be asking for hassles, yanno? But if I am with my partner, I can dress any way I choose; it's safe.

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Is this reaction and my desire to tell everyone who has the biggest dick in our house, my inner 16 year old boy having a tantrum?

My Femme is intelligent and wears a big blue opalescent dick.

I think you answered your own question. It is your Inner Femme asserting Herself, claiming Her own power.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by christie0918

A man who inherited the business from his father employs me. Both are very staunch, conservative republicans with stay home wives and are both the walking, breathing epitome of male privilege. They had never had a woman in power at their company, in its entire 56 year history until I joined them 1.5 years ago. I could tell at the beginning that I would have to stand toe to toe with the elder so as to not be pigeonholed into what I felt his ideas of my role would be. The son, who is my age, has said that I have changed his father’s perceptions of women. Just last week, I was promoted and will be taking over the helm of the business in January. I am not so naïve as to think that I won’t have a struggle ahead of me just because I wasn’t born with a penis.

I am a strong, independent, intelligent, feminine, imperfectly perfect, simply complex, female entity. My relationship does not define me. My partnering with a beautifully exquisite masculine female does not define me. Demanding that my voice be heard does not make me less feminine. It does not make me more masculine. Running the world and being Queen of all I see doesn’t make me less feminine or more masculine. It just makes me intelligently strong. It’s just me.

For me, it’s not about letting the world chose my role within it… It’s about me choosing how I am viewed in the world.

Christie

I didn't want to let this one get me by. I have a feeling you're writing from the South, and maybe you're not, and I guess it doesn't matter, because anywhere really, this kind of achievement is still to be considered. Big business or small.

I'm glad you've been able to show them what you have to offer and that what you have to offer has moved the veil of 'But she's a woman' out of the way enough to allow you that promotion. Hot damn and good for you.

I also really liked your self-description. Sounds like they and Jess are all pretty lucky.

[christie]

Originally Posted by evolveme

I didn't want to let this one get me by. I have a feeling you're writing from the South, and maybe you're not, and I guess it doesn't matter, because anywhere really, this kind of achievement is still to be considered. Big business or small.

I'm glad you've been able to show them what you have to offer and that what you have to offer has moved the veil of 'But she's a woman' out of the way enough to allow you that promotion. Hot damn and good for you.

I also really liked your self-description. Sounds like they and Jess are all pretty lucky.

You were right on the money - Southern, conservative Richmond small business. And thank you for acknowledging the significance. I like to think I am changing minds... one at a time.

I would agree with you that Jess and "the boys" (as I refer to son/dad) are quite lucky to have me... but then that might sound conceited rather than convinced... and I left "convinced" outta the self-descriptor!

[christie]

Medusa -

While change is difficult, I have no doubt of your ability to navigate it flawlessly. Tomorrow, I will willingly wear something pink as my lil way of supporting you.

While some might find it a rather trite idea, for those who know that I abhor pink about as much as I do patchouli and Birkenstocks (ya'll can love 'em, I don't have to) and I ONLY wear pink in deference to the Sadistic Bastard's wishes, it is the biggest support I know to offer.

I wish I had such wonderfully wise advice like Isadora. I could only add:

Be kind to yourself.

Blessings,
Christie

[christie]

Originally Posted by christie0918

Medusa -

While change is difficult, I have no doubt of your ability to navigate it flawlessly. Tomorrow, I will willingly wear something pink as my lil way of supporting you.

While some might find it a rather trite idea, for those who know that I abhor pink about as much as I do patchouli and Birkenstocks (ya'll can love 'em, I don't have to) and I ONLY wear pink in deference to the Sadistic Bastard's wishes, it is the biggest support I know to offer.

I wish I had such wonderfully wise advice like Isadora. I could only add:

Be kind to yourself.

Blessings,
Christie

Pink socks with lil cherries on them.... check...

Pink scarf.... check...

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by christie0918

I am a strong, independent, intelligent, feminine, imperfectly perfect, simply complex, female entity. My relationship does not define me. My partnering with a beautifully exquisite masculine female does not define me. Demanding that my voice be heard does not make me less feminine. It does not make me more masculine. Running the world and being Queen of all I see doesn’t make me less feminine or more masculine. It just makes me intelligently strong. It’s just me.

For me, it’s not about letting the world chose my role within it… It’s about me choosing how I am viewed in the world.

Christie

EXACTLY!..