Open Letter: Dear Femme

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Bit

I understand your point here, but the judgment I have endured from other Femmes has centered around "male-centric" rather than "masculine-centric."

It is true that I will defer to any Butch, of any ID. I always check myself and my thoughts before I post to be certain I am not offending anyone, hitting any trigger phrases, pushing any hot buttons, forgetting to hedge myself about with obligatory disclaimers... lord love a duck, it gets tiring and I mostly just don't post, yanno? I mostly just don't post.

Right now, I just want all the Butches and Transguys of our community to finally grow up and share the space and this includes me.

This sense of needing to jockey for position. The fear of one's identity going out of favor or being overshadowed by another, i.e., loss of power or position within the community. This need to compete, defend; as if 'my' tribe will be assimilated. It's maddening sometimes.

Thank you, to all, for the support you give, to all of us. *smiles and handshakes all around*

Please don't stop posting. *smiles*

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by apretty

does anyone else feel that her personal 'femme' is being abused (under-appreciated) when we're accused of being less-than supportive (or of blatant misogyny)?

This is a really good question, Pretty.

I'm struggling in that I can't say yes, I personally feel that my 'femme' is being abused, per say, when we're accused of blatant misogyny (or not supporting), but it does feel spurious to me. If we have our own opinions, and strong ones, as to why it isn't necessary to support, or even to engage in a way that may feel contrary to support, being accused of misogyny is too easy an ad hominem attack. And I do feel it is one.

Explain to me, and respectfully if you can, why you believe my opinions have shut you down (because it is never my intention to shut anyone down), and how they hold up a dynamic of 'male-over.' Because I assure you that I am too thoughtful, too self-and-other-considered to allow this dynamic to be my invisible truth.

What is outwardly and obviously true for me is that I stand for all of us. I fight for ALL of us, not just my own kind.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by apretty

from the first page of this thread i've kept thinking: "master's tools/master's house"

so, i went looking for more Audre Lorde, (sure she was trying to get in on the conversation/at least in my head)

"There's always someone asking you to underline one piece of yourself -- whether it's Black, woman, mother, dyke, teacher, etc. -- because that's the piece that they need to key in to. They want to dismiss everything else."

and

"I am who I am, doing what I came to do, acting upon you like a drug or chisel or remind you of your me-ness as I discover you in myself."

i feel like this, especially the last quote, is how we all fit together. (and it feels fucking fantastic)

This all deserves a repeat.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Right now, I just want all the Butches and Transguys of our community to finally grow up and share the space and this includes me.

This sense of needing to jockey for position. The fear of one's identity going out of favor or being overshadowed by another, i.e., loss of power or position within the community. This need to compete, defend; as if 'my' tribe will be assimilated. It's maddening sometimes.

Thank you, to all, for the support you give, to all of us. *smiles and handshakes all around*

Please don't stop posting. *smiles*

I'm not sure what you mean by "share the space?" With who? Femmes?

That'd be nice. I've noticed that all too frequently the top threads are all about masculine-based identities. As important as these conversations are, for all of us, they frequently overshadow ANY femme conversation. This has been my experience in real time as well.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by blush

I'm not sure what you mean by "share the space?" With who? Femmes?

That'd be nice. I've noticed that all too frequently the top threads are all about masculine-based identities. As important as these conversations are, for all of us, they frequently overshadow ANY femme conversation. This has been my experience in real time as well.

Hi, blush

Well, what was in my mind at the time of that comment was masculine-based identity space. But.... I like your understanding of it a lot better. To be honest, I've just started to view more femme space here. Mostly just reading and trying not to interrupt.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Hi, blush

Well, what was in my mind at the time of that comment was masculine-based identity space. But.... I like your understanding of it a lot better. To be honest. I've just started to view more femme space here. Mostly just reading and trying not to interrupt.

Yo
I'd be interested to hear from y'all what YOU(and by YOU I mean all y'all, not YOU personally, Kosmo) can do to change how we are perceived.

[Diva]

Am I being too simplistic to think any of this can be solved with 2 words?

Play nice.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by evolveme

See, I saw this as problematic too, Jess. Even though you go on to say, "not for her support of me, but for the exact entity that she is."

While I love the love and respect you are showing her here, I also want to see you simply allow her the autonomy and agency she deserves (not that I believe you are necessarily disrespecting her). I understand that "the dance" has us thinking often of the bright space between us, the sharp contrast. But what was it about her that you loved before she was yours?

Who is she fundamentally? How can you define her without mentioning a role she inhabits (lover, sister, mother, friend)?

Tell us about her independent of you or even what she means to you.

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

Hi there.. I wanted to take a moment and apologize ( if necessary) for my earlier response if it was taken as any way other than brief. I admittedly felt that my words felt picked apart and focused on rather than my intent, which was to just say " wow... y'all rawk!"
I know in hindsight ( after several, MANY re-readings) the questions you posed are really great questions and would be a great thread for both butch and femme folks to ask of themselves regarding how they "see" their partners "outside of their "roles" " . I never wanted to derail the purpose of this thread, which is why I never responded more.
I would like to ask evolveme to start such a thread if she feels so moved, because the words she chose to use in the asking really did give me pause to consider these things. I would also love to see a thread that that might expound on how our "roles" ( not necessarily butch-femme per se) do contribute to how we define others as well as self.
" seeing ourselves clearly" is the beginning of embracing ourselves. Or is it the result of embracing that we are truly able to "see" ?
At any rate.. Thank you. and I mean it this time!!!!!

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Okay. I'm going to take a stab at this one.

I think "we" have been responsible for the inherent misogyny when "we" do, as a whole, enhance the masculine over the feminine. I put "we" in quotes because I want to make the distinction that I see this as a groupthink thing.

I think that there are those of us who do not do this within our own partnerships or even our own communities, but I wonder if "we" are able to speak our truth when confronted with this in other people's relationships.

(PLEASE NOTE that this example has utterly no bearing in fact and I am using two people whom I know and suspect will not be offended by their starring roles in this example. Again, I have NEVER witnessed this behavior from them...are we clear?)

For instance, let's say I was at a party where Goofy and Blush were. I saw Goofy interrupt Blush while she was involved with some other femmes in some intense discussion. Goofy called out to Blush (let's assume he didn't even get up) and said, "Get me a beer."

Now let's further assume that Blush excused herself from the conversation to get Goofy his beer without so much as an exasperated look or a menacing glare.

IF I saw that and did not say anything to either one of them would I:

A: Be respecting the dynamic of their relationship?
B: Be complacently approving of the inherent misogyny?

And, while I'm on this subject, why would that scenario be wrong but a reverse of it (Blush interrupting Goofy) possibly not have the same impact?

To me, that would be participating in creating a male-centric environment.

Ahhh, OK, that makes total sense. Thank you for explaining with an example. That always helps for me.

It has been difficult for me to speak out on anything really based on my own upbringing....ie. in the South we talk behind people's backs, not to their faces (as a general cultural thing, I know you are also Southern) and the fact that I can be pretty non-confrontational...related to a great number of things, I crave peaceful harmony.

However,
I understand that not saying anything provides tacit approval (implied approval), so I have in the past few years worked (and continue the battle) to speak my mind directly.

Sexism is like racism, every time we encounter this we need to say something.

On the other hand....
It's difficult with the BDSM dynamics in our community that get brought into non-BDSM settings to always know intent. It's a mine field really. It amazes me how often I find myself in just the situation you describe with a friend saying they are not "allowed" to do this or that. I know my eye bows hit the ceiling as I ask "what is this allowed word of which you speak?"

Thanks again, for putting it in terms I can get.

J

PS. Unless there was a sorry for interrupting and a PLEASE mentioned I think either scenario is rude.
PPS, but I do get that with the history sexism, it would be different. Goofy is Trans, right? would it be the same if Goofy were Butch? I think so.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by blush

Yo
I'd be interested to hear from y'all what YOU(and by YOU I mean all y'all, not YOU personally, Kosmo) can do to change how we are perceived.

Hi, blush *smiles*

I think I understand. If not, I expect you to let me know. You're asking the folks in this thread what can be done to change the perception, right? Please allow me to offer some thoughts.

How do you feel you are perceived? Do you feel invisible? Do you feel you take a back seat position to others? Do you feel that your opinion, statements, or thoughts are not considered or taken into account? Do you feel an unbalance in the dynamics of butch-femme or male/masculine-female/feminine engagement, here and in the world around you. It does carry over.

When I interact with my sweetheart, she is very clear in her communication to me. Do I feel a privilege sometimes that shadows her needs, desires? Yes, I have been guilty of that. I think it comes from fighting for recognition myself. In the world at large where the difference between me and the other worldly (societies majority as a whole) challenges my very existence. I get caught in the 'it's all about me' syndrome. My views, my opinions, etc.

When this happens, she speaks up, challenges me and I have to stop and think about what she's said. I can't think of an example off hand.

She realizes that she herself also walks in that ghost like veil of invisibility even if she doesn't physically look any different than the next person. You know what I mean? Being careful about sharing her personal life, assumptions by straight men, women, etc. I need to be sensitive to that. I need to let her know that she is not alone in dealing with it, even if only wanting to vent about it, *smiles*.

I think 'we' need to say more than thank you to all the females/femmes for supporting us, how powerful the femme dynamic seems to some of us, how we can't live without you. But is that the only sentiment you really want to hear. What does it mean? We are all individuals that want recognition for who we are, what we think, not only how it compliments or supports another. Truth is, I can live without the femme, but I would rather live with it.*winks*

Here in the forum, all of you need to speak your mind. Don't settle for the back seat or a 'good girl' sentiment (I tease my girl 'cause she gets riled when she sees that). Don't allow the interruption of conversation (which is rude to begin with).

My girl tells me when she is not happy about something and I damn well better be paying attention, lol. But, and this is important to our relationship, she listens when I'm not happy about something too.

Yes, all y'all *winks* need to change the perception. Just give the rest of us a clear understanding of what it is you expect.

I think I've talked too much, *snickers*

I have to add that my relationship dynamic with my girl is such that if I were to interrupt her and ask for a beer, I think she would most likely look at me with a 'really?' expression on her face. I've never done it and don't ever expect to, *chuckles*

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Jess

Hi there.. I wanted to take a moment and apologize ( if necessary) for my earlier response if it was taken as any way other than brief. I admittedly felt that my words felt picked apart and focused on rather than my intent, which was to just say " wow... y'all rawk!"
I know in hindsight ( after several, MANY re-readings) the questions you posed are really great questions and would be a great thread for both butch and femme folks to ask of themselves regarding how they "see" their partners "outside of their "roles" " . I never wanted to derail the purpose of this thread, which is why I never responded more.
I would like to ask evolveme to start such a thread if she feels so moved, because the words she chose to use in the asking really did give me pause to consider these things. I would also love to see a thread that that might expound on how our "roles" ( not necessarily butch-femme per se) do contribute to how we define others as well as self.
" seeing ourselves clearly" is the beginning of embracing ourselves. Or is it the result of embracing that we are truly able to "see" ?
At any rate.. Thank you. and I mean it this time!!!!!

Jess, I accept your apology. Thank you for offering it.

I also appreciate that you chose to keep looking at this and to reconsider how it was intended. It can be really difficult for people to understand feminine women (especially) beyond their roles, but I believe it is so important.

I also believe it is of primary importance for each of us to be able to define ourselves beyond/external to our roles/relationships. And here again, I am speaking about my feminine peeps.

As for starting a thread on this subject, I'm not inclined to do so at this time. My focus right now is on probing how we as feminine people are seen, how we see and understand ourselves, to what degree we are sublimated by the masculine domination in our environments. And how we can more actively move this tendency toward a more egalitarian dynamic.

[evolveme]

Kosmo, I see that you decided to post and I need you to know that this confuses me. Be that as it may, I'm going to give you my honest response, while asking you to understand that I recognize your sincerity, your appreciation for Femme, your love for your partner, and your wish that we be seen. I appreciate all of that.

Still, I'm struggling here because it feels wrong to me that a butch person would answer this question - how we can 'change how we are perceived' - and honestly, I just don't feel it's appropriate. I just don't feel it's your place.

Some of your post feels patronizing. I get that this isn't how you intended it to feel. But, that's how it sounds. To me.

I mean, don't tell me what you think I need to do to change how I am perceived. If I'm not being seen, or if I am not being perceived above the din of masculinity, your voice telling me how to go about it is only adding to the problem.

I don't need to know how 'your girl' is clear in her communication in the context of this question, because, you know, so am I. I'm pretty damn clear most of the time and I don't need a masculine or male someone to tell me why that's a good thing or how sexy or pretty it is, because, man, it just is.

Please do not misread me, Kosmo. This is not personal between me, e, and you Kosmo. It just seemed to me that you hadn't read the thread entirely before you posted and that is important to me. The answers to your entire second paragraph can be found here. I don't think they need to be reiterated unless a femme decides for herself that she'd like to discuss them again. What I mean is that, this discussion should not be lead (as they too often tend to be) by a butch or masculine person.

Thank you for not taking me personally. I really, really am trying to talk about the concept of masculine-over. That's partly what this thread is about.

Originally Posted by Kosmo

<snip>

How do you feel you are perceived? Do you feel invisible? Do you feel you take a back seat position to others? Do you feel that your opinion, statements, or thoughts are not considered or taken into account? Do you feel an unbalance in the dynamics of butch-femme or male/masculine-female/feminine engagement, here and in the world around you. It does carry over.

<snipy snip>

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Kosmo, I see that you decided to post and I need you to know that this confuses me. Be that as it may, I'm going to give you my honest response, while asking you to understand that I recognize your sincerity, your appreciation for Femme, your love for your partner, and your wish that we be seen. I appreciate all of that.

Still, I'm struggling here because it feels wrong to me that a butch person would answer this question - how we can 'change how we are perceived' - and honestly, I just don't feel it's appropriate. I just don't feel it's your place.

Some of your post feels patronizing. I get that this isn't how you intended it to feel. But, that's how it sounds. To me.

I mean, don't tell me what you think I need to do to change how I am perceived. If I'm not being seen, or if I am not being perceived above the din of masculinity, your voice telling me how to go about it is only adding to the problem.

I don't need to know how 'your girl' is clear in her communication in the context of this question, because, you know, so am I. I'm pretty damn clear most of the time and I don't need a masculine or male someone to tell me why that's a good thing or how sexy or pretty it is, because, man, it just is.

Please do not misread me, Kosmo. This is not personal between me, e, and you Kosmo. It just seemed to me that you hadn't read the thread entirely before you posted and that is important to me. The answers to your entire second paragraph can be found here. I don't think they need to be reiterated unless a femme decides for herself that she'd like to discuss them again. What I mean is that, this discussion should not be lead (as they too often tend to be) by a butch or masculine person.

Thank you for not taking me personally. I really, really am trying to talk about the concept of masculine-over. That's partly what this thread is about.

Fair enough. I leave you to it.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Hi, blush *smiles*

How do you feel you are perceived? Do you feel invisible? Do you feel you take a back seat position to others? Do you feel that your opinion, statements, or thoughts are not considered or taken into account? Do you feel an unbalance in the dynamics of butch-femme or male/masculine-female/feminine engagement, here and in the world around you. It does carry over.

She realizes that she herself also walks in that ghost like veil of invisibility even if she doesn't physically look any different than the next person. You know what I mean? Being careful about sharing her personal life, assumptions by straight men, women, etc. I need to be sensitive to that. I need to let her know that she is not alone in dealing with it, even if only wanting to vent about it, *smiles*.

I think 'we' need to say more than thank you to all the females/femmes for supporting us, how powerful the femme dynamic seems to some of us, how we can't live without you. But is that the only sentiment you really want to hear. What does it mean? We are all individuals that want recognition for who we are, what we think, not only how it compliments or supports another. Truth is, I can live without the femme, but I would rather live with it.*winks*

Here in the forum, all of you need to speak your mind. Don't settle for the back seat or a 'good girl' sentiment (I tease my girl 'cause she gets riled when she sees that). Don't allow the interruption of conversation (which is rude to begin with).

My girl tells me when she is not happy about something and I damn well better be paying attention, lol. But, and this is important to our relationship, she listens when I'm not happy about something too.

Yes, all y'all *winks* need to change the perception. Just give the rest of us a clear understanding of what it is you expect.

I think I've talked too much, *snickers*

I have to add that my relationship dynamic with my girl is such that if I were to interrupt her and ask for a beer, I think she would most likely look at me with a 'really?' expression on her face. I've never done it and don't ever expect to, *chuckles*

Your post really got me thinking.

I always stumble over the word "supportive" when femmes are described. Because I think that is the crux of the problem. We are ALWAYS supporting. We're not jock straps, yanno? But it diminishes us. A femme's partner is situationally supportive (as in, my baby was supportive when I had my surgery), but femmes are generally and overall described as supportive.

What would I like to see? I'd like to see more recognition that we walk beside our partners. We're not in the background bucking y'all up. I'd like to see more recognition that although we may partner better with certain "types" of butches or trans fellas, every femme I know are fiercely protective of all of y'all. And, I would certainly like to see less "labeling" of who a femme is based on who she fucks. We're completely capable of deciding which community we do and do not belong to. And it has no bearing on who we are currently partnered with.

I'd also like to add that, for me, there is a huge difference between a dynamic and internalized misogony. A dynamic is a choice and consensual, and both participants are "getting something" from it. Internalized misogony is a pattern of behaviors that may not be consensual(obviously this is not a full definition).

And now I'm off to get Goofy a beer before he smacks my ass.

[friskyfemme]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?

Sisters,

I have for many years struggled to maintain femme friends. Mainly, because of their preoccupation with butches. For some strange reason, femmes (I've known) can' t seem to have validity or fun with other femmes unless we're with our dates or flirting with guys. I have alot of 'straight' gfs as a result. They don't seem to have the same limitations. However, the component we don't share is sexual preference. It is truly difficult for my 'straight gal pals' to understand that a feminine femme is not straight.
I am who I am for me. I struggled through years of fighting my femininity, due a history of rape. I blamed myself for years. I thought femininess meant fragile and subserveant.
I rejected all the things I loved that were frilly, fluffy, 'girly'. But, as I past that '40' mark I realized I didn't care to live under anyone else's definition. I was reborn to 'all femme', I like long bathes, 'my femme day' (1day a week to pamper myself), hiking in nature, or camping out. I am more that just a pretty face and so areall of us! I glad to see some commaradity here.

[blush]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

PPS, but I do get that with the history sexism, it would be different. Goofy is Trans, right? would it be the same if Goofy were Butch? I think so.

I agree with you. I think we are speaking about femme counterparts, whether they're butch or trans.

[Diva]

I love this thread.
I love the way the conversation flow is respectful and searching and sane.

Something e said to Kosmo spoke to me, and blush, too....right.....a butch can't answer these questions for us. But I would take this one step further and say NO ONE can answer these questions for me, BUT me. No one can answer them for blush EXCEPT blush...and so on and so forth.

And, while I love this thread...and all the wise words that are put out here ~ convo is a GOOD thing! ~ in the end, it is up to me.

It is up to me to be strong.
It is up to me not to be objectified.
It is up to me not to be a doormat.
It is up to me not to be invisible.
It is up to me not to whine about it.

I am a strong submissivewomanmomteacherdivathangetc. If I am in a relationship, I have no problem saying that I will be supportive of my partner, because I will have had the good sense to have found Someone who will also be supportive of me. (And blush, I know You have that! <smile> )

I hope this hasn't been an offensive post. We are ALL on this journey......for ourselves.....and yet.....in sisterhood.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by blush

I always stumble over the word "supportive" when femmes are described. Because I think that is the crux of the problem. We are ALWAYS supporting. We're not jock straps, yanno? But it diminishes us. A femme's partner is situationally supportive (as in, my baby was supportive when I had my surgery), but femmes are generally and overall described as supportive.

What would I like to see? I'd like to see more recognition that we walk beside our partners. We're not in the background bucking y'all up. I'd like to see more recognition that although we may partner better with certain "types" of butches or trans fellas, every femme I know are fiercely protective of all of y'all. And, I would certainly like to see less "labeling" of who a femme is based on who she fucks. We're completely capable of deciding which community we do and do not belong to. And it has no bearing on who we are currently partnered with.

I love the parts that I bolded: yesyesyes! I am sick to death of being thought of as 'supportive'. Supportive of what, for what?! No one has an easy road of it so I would love to see the 'supportive' stripped from 'femme'. (If a butch requires constant support (in whatever form), that butch needs a mom not a lovah.)

C's Perspective:

And another thing: Show me (everyone) the respect we deserve. I don't want to hear a butch that doesn't own or wear a suit defining their desire for *high femme* as heels, stockings and skirts. Nor do I want to hear a butch define for anyone else what is or is not their own particular *femme*. I am sick of this hierarchy of *femme* and I really am sick of butches participating in that discussion (fueling the fire).

We're all worth it, F anyone who says otherwise.

[Arwen]

Labels.

I am one of those who actually likes labels. I like to stick them on myself and then watch other people's brains turn to mush when they try to figure out how all of those labels can be one person.

When I am in a partnership, I like "taking care" of my other half. It feeds my soul. I do this on a fairly instinctive basis. It is not because I think it is the "girl" role. I do this for my friends as well. It is the "Arwen" role.

I believe that when we make a case for femme as anything we define it as, we must make sure that we are not limiting that "anything" to anything we are comfortable with.

I like to cook. When I shared a house with Goofy, I enjoyed feeding him. (please note he cooked as well). I do not know if he got the same enjoyment out of cooking for me as I did for him. (Also, for those that do not know, Goof and I are just friends. )

But cooking, for me, is an expression of who I am. Not my femme self. My Arwen self. I do it because it is a way to put some of my creativity out there in a tangible way.

So, if I enjoy cooking, does that make me an accomplice to the male-centric domination of our culture?

I don't think so.

I think if I got upset that my partner cooked, THEN I would be contributing.

I do know that I've made jokes about a butch's place is at the BBQ. I personally do not enjoy BBQing. I like eating it and fixing it...but the actual standing by the BBQ? Not so much.

Yeah, I do see that as a "boy" thing. And that is my own lightbulb on how I foster this male-centric attitude.

Now, mind you, this does NOT mean I am going to hit the BBQ. I will however change my language around it being the butch's job. How about in my world, it is anyone's job but mine.

How about a thread challenge? We are all doing so fabulously at conversing here.

Who else can come up with a personal, concrete example of what you (not generic, but personal) do to foster even in a small way, the idea that femme is somehow defined/refined by butch?

What labels do you love? hate? What do you somehow see as your role that possibly is not?

Yes, I know I'm rambling. I do that.

[Lynn]

In my butch-femme relationship, our identities and attributes interact to the extent that we define who we are to each other. I, in this b-f relationship, am probably not exactly the same as I would be in another relationship with another butch. The relationship doesn't define who I am. It impacts on other aspects of life, and, can affect them greatly. The same could be said for other identities, like who I am at work, at home, as a mother, or whatever else I assert as my role.

As blush said, I don't want to be identified by who I choose to fuck. It's one aspect of me. I agree that labels are useful. Labels and language are meaningful and powerful.That is why I have yet to find myself comfortable with being identified as a femme. I've said elsewhere, and probably here...to me, and for me, femme is an attribute, not an identity.

How do I contribute to the idea that femme is defined or refined by butch? I don't know. I don't equate the masculinity of a butch with male-centric (that means "patriarchal"--right?). I have NO expectatation of any trappings (I think they're trappings) of stereotypical male-female roles and duties in my relationship, but I don't have any problem where they would appear to be so, for me or for anyone else. I think we've come to the point where we have the right to be, without apology.

I've been working on this for far too long...might I be self-censoring? Perhaps. So, it's time to post.