masculine maturity?

[rlin]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

It's impossible to interpret the femme/feminine experience this way, not to mention, this is a thread about the masculine path.

again respectfully...
in actuality i posted this in the butch forum because yes i am interested in butch maturity... but.. in my OP i actually asked about a comparison...

i think that at some level the maturity of femme in comparison to the maturity of butch is interesting to me...
but... indeed my biggest wonder was about masulinity and the amount of impact it has on maturity...

to address other posters...
i have been out longer than i was in... way longer... as a butch i have completed the entire spectrum of a full mature provider for my family... i have experienced shit and thought that i acted as an adult would... i am conscientious and compassionate and all the things that most apply to the definition of maturity...

however... when i look in a mirror...
then i know that a lot of the time... the insides do not match... i feel like i am learning so much about myself right now... at this time... that i am just beginning to age... to grow up... that is the context of maturity i have been thinking of...
several folks mentioned knowing oneself...
this is the thing that is happening to me... i made all the right moves... because i was supposed to... i did all the things that were expected... well... maybe not all... but the ones that were necessary...

but... i never knew myself... i couldnt pinpoint this before i listened to the folks that have posted here... and i appreciate the thoughts and the fact that you share them...

this brings me back to another comparison...
introspection... could that have anything to do with what i am talking about?
are femmes this way too? is this a butch thing? that i just dont look inside me that often? pardon.... or i just never did until recently...

i dont know why i keep tying this up with gender... i think because maybe when i look in the mirror recently i address myself and my mind flows in directions that make me think of the fact that i am butch... as if maybe this helped to keep my from taking a close look at myself... even tho i have always thought and acted as if i were damned proud of being butch...

see... my thoughts are so damned scattered on this subject... that is why intentionally didnt say very much in the opener... hopin that maybe thru listening i will learn something... listening to everyone...

[BullDog]

rlin, it seems to me what you are describing is a maturation process going on within yourself- rather than maturity as in being a responsible adult. This makes sense to me. I am not sure if this has to do with comparing butches to femmes as far as it taking longer, but I do think you may be experiencing a new level of awareness and comfort zone of yourself as a person (which includes being butch) and it comes from both your life experience and introspection.

I do think butches (probably other genders as well) do become more comfortable in our skins the more life experience we gain and the more we come to terms with ourselves, our gender and place in the world. I think older butches often have a quiet confidence about themselves where posturing is not necessary. I do think it is part of a maturation process- in the way I think you are describing.

[little man]

Originally Posted by rlin

this brings me back to another comparison...
introspection... could that have anything to do with what i am talking about?
are femmes this way too? is this a butch thing? that i just dont look inside me that often? pardon.... or i just never did until recently...

i dont know why i keep tying this up with gender... i think because maybe when i look in the mirror recently i address myself and my mind flows in directions that make me think of the fact that i am butch... as if maybe this helped to keep my from taking a close look at myself... even tho i have always thought and acted as if i were damned proud of being butch...

this is a personal response to this part of your post, rlin.

my creds: im 53, have been out since i was 14 and have never been much good at being a girl, am now into my 8th(?) year of transition.

i don't know that being butch plays into introspection much. i have always, from the time i was very young, been introspective. i've always read a lot and "tried on" different perspectives and thought processes to see how they fit with (i suppose) my experience and view of the world, however limited it was at any particular time.

my dad told me once (i think somewhere in my 30s) that i was more honest about myself and with myself than most people are. he told me that makes others uncomfortable because it compels them to have a look at themselves. i'm not sure how true that is, but it made sense to me.

have you had a look to see what's brought you to looking more closely at yourself, who you are and your place in the world?

[Corkey]

My response is this. I know that maturity has nothing to do with gender, sexuality or how some identify. Maturity comes from self examination, life experiences and knowledge of the world at large. The more one examines their actions, responses to others actions and teases apart the why's and wherefores of said actions the more one can come to conclusions that are based in reality. When folks come to maturity is based on their own experiences. I can tell you at the age of 17 I became fully maturated, but you may not believe me. That would not be something that is provable, but it is definitely my reality.
Good topic.

[WingsOnFire]

Great post Gemme... I love it!

I personally believe that life experiences can greatly hinder or benefit someone in their maturity growth. I grew up in a very dysfunctional home. I left at the age of 17 to learn what it was like to be "normal" for me. To this day I visit sparsely and know that I have worked hard to become the mature and self-functioning independent woman I am today. I persevered and by surrounding myself with people I could look up to I have matured in to the woman I am today. Possibly someone who grew up in a more loving, nurturing family would have matured faster than I did because they would have the right role models to assist in that? I dont know... That is another thought to ponder. I missed out on a lot because of that. To this day I dont have a mother (she passed away when I was 19), a father (he also passed away when I was 19) or sisters or brothers that I would feel comfortable calling for advice. Does that hinder me? Yes. But it is what I "DO" with my life to persevere beyond those limitations that matters to me.

I know both femmes of my age and much younger than I that are as mature, more mature and less mature than I am. Same with butches. My Sir is younger than I am yet in many ways he is much older and wiser than I am. Maybe that is because I believe he has an old soul. Whatever the reason is, I could not and would not compare femmes to butches in maturity growth. In my humble opinion they, femmes and butches, can not be put into one category of more mature or less mature than the other. It is really a personal journey.

I also dont agree that butches equate to male. So I dont think you can use the same analogy of girls mature faster than boys. It just doesn't fit in the same category as femme and butch. Again, I feel it is ones own internal self awareness that reflects their maturity level.

Sorry if this rambles... I am trying to compile my thoughts in a room full of 50 women scrapbooking

[AtLast]

Wondering if other people believe their maturation was influenced by birth order?

Also, as a FIB, I just can't relate to masculine maturity in any shape or form. No, I don't mean this as anything snide. Yes, I was not what most girls should be, but, I just viewed myself as a different kind of girl (still do). I can relate to some ethnic distinctions between how female and female children can be raised and their maturity measured by their parents/care-takers. But, this would also have been tainted in my life just because of being raised in the accepted "mans world" paradigm of my age group. I don't know how relevant this would be to younger members. I can relate to masculine maturation and development as a parent of a male child, however.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Wondering if other people believe their maturation was influenced by birth order?

Also, as a FIB, I just can't relate to masculine maturity in any shape or form. No, I don't mean this as anything snide. Yes, I was not what most girls should be, but, I just viewed myself as a different kind of girl (still do). I can relate to some ethnic distinctions between how female and female children can be raised and their maturity measured by their parents/care-takers. But, this would also have been tainted in my life just because of being raised in the accepted "mans world" paradigm of my age group. I don't know how relevant this would be to younger members.

Birth order, nah, it doesn't explain it in terms of adoption. If that were true my brother should have matured faster than me, he didn't.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Birth order, nah, it doesn't explain it in terms of adoption. If that were true my brother should have matured faster than me, he didn't.

I agree, partly. As the youngest and born nearly ten years after my older siblings, I can see differences in expectations of maturity. Also, things like not being taken seriously as the "baby of the family." But, on thye hand, having a serious ethnic expectation of being the child responsible for my parents as they aged as the youngest female (especially as an "unmarried" female). My older siblings each had particular role expectations based upon our ethnicity as well. But, there could be similiar things like this for others, I think, based on birth order.

Thinking about how very different my parents were when they had the first child- their maturity levels- fromtwhen I came along. So many things had changed outside of their own ages. For one thing, they did not have the same economic worries and I do think that I did not have some of the same expectations of responsibility expected of me as early as my sisters and brother. For example, we all had paying part-time jobs by the age of 12. However, my older siblings contributed their earning to the family as a whole. I got to keep the money I earned. Well, I had to put most of it in a bank account (for college), but could spend some weekly on things like going to the movies.

I do think I got away with some things as a teenager that my siblings didn't and that this did cause them to become more responsible at younger ages than myself. How it feels, anyway. LOL... perhaps they brain washed me into believing this!