"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

What on earth makes you think that I, or any other lesbian wants non-lesbians to use the language by which we describe ourselves??? At no time did I, or would I, desire for non-lesbians/female homosexuals to use the language we use to describe ourselves.

Hmmm. Perhaps I missed your point then of why you were stating over and over that a female homosexual was synonymous with lesbian.

I apologize. I thought you were saying that that was the only definition available for female homosexual.

As a queer femme who no longer identifies as lesbian, yet understands and respects those that do, I read your repetition of that as I described just now.

Truly, if that is not what you were saying, then I am sorry.

What were you trying to say? Maybe if we start over?

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Hmmm. Perhaps I missed your point then of why you were stating over and over that a female homosexual was synonymous with lesbian.

I apologize. I thought you were saying that that was the only definition available for female homosexual.

As a queer femme who no longer identifies as lesbian, yet understands and respects those that do, I read your repetition of that as I described just now.

Truly, if that is not what you were saying, then I am sorry.

What were you trying to say? Maybe if we start over?

Yes, my point was that Lesbian is synonymous with female homosexual. Therefore, female homosexual is synonymous with lesbian.
That is not "my" judgement. That is the english language as understood by english speaking people. Homo=one (gender). Women who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women is the definition of female homosexual/lesbian. (Can't believe you're making me repeat this! lol).

Several posters seemed to have issue with homosexual/lesbian women having terms that describe their orientation. They went to great length to justify why they are not lesbians (which no one asked).

Just because lesbian is synonymous with female homosexual shouldn't take away from other queers, but apparently people felt it was somehow unfair that the terms lesbian and female homosexual are synonymous and describe females who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women.
I'm not sure why. Maybe they think lesbianism/female homosexuality shoud not be defined by women loving women?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Yes, my point was that Lesbian is synonymous with female homosexual. Therefore, female homosexual is synonymous with lesbian.
That is not "my" judgement. That is the english language as understood by english speaking people. Homo=one (gender). Women who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women is the definition of female homosexual/lesbian. (Can't believe you're making me repeat this! lol).

Several posters seemed to have issue with homosexual/lesbian women having terms that describe their orientation. They went to great length to justify why they are not lesbians (which no one asked).

Just because lesbian is synonymous with female homosexual shouldn't take away from other queers, but apparently people felt it was somehow unfair that the terms lesbian and female homosexual are synonymous and describe females who are affectationally and sexually oriented to other women.
I'm not sure why. Maybe they think lesbianism/female homosexuality shoud not be defined by women loving women?

To be clear, I did not make you repeat that. You chose to do repeat that.

Pig is synonymous with swine and also with police officer (forgive me all my police officer friends.) My point is that the word "pig" has more than one definition (and very varied ones at that.) I'm sure we could both list a slew of words with similar multi-tasking uses.

I see that this discussion has simply become more hammering of the same nail. I do not understand the point you are trying to make. I am sorry. Perhaps it is simply that I am over-tired.

I will remove myself from this discussion for now and come back to it perhaps when I am refreshed.

At this point, it still feels to me like you are saying that a female homosexual can only be a lesbian. I will vehemently disagree with those limiting parameters. Good night.

[WILDCAT]

I've had to stop reading this two pages back!

I'm a proud queer butch lesbian!

This is fucking hurtful that folks are going nuts about being referred to as a queer/femme/butch lesbian, etc... in such a very negative, hateful - if not digusting way.

IF you aren't a queer lesbian butch or femme lesbian... Good. Please don't hate those who are and act like you're being referred to as such - is akin to the fucking scum of the earth. What the hell!?

IF you are a queer lesbian, butch or femme - and assume all folks are (not straight and trangendered here - unless someone ID's this way of their own choice) please consider that all folks do NOT refer to themselves this way. And they do not care for it, no matter what the reasons. That needs to be respected too. We argue over this continually. I am sick and tired of it.
___

OTHERWISE, forget that this is a butch/femme site. That the owners are trying to be inclusive - and I feel like I'm being spit on here. And I can see how the ones who KNOW folks here truly are sticking up for each other, despite what THEIR damn ID even is! I am truly disgusted right now.

Merry fucking Christmas and to all and to all a good night. I'll be back in a few days to see how WONDERFUL all of our holidays were - after shit like this. If I am able.

SINCERELY,
WILDCAT

*And report my ass away, fine... Not too many folks should be feeling too goddamn proud right now, IM HUMBLE OPINION. We got set up here, I thought that... I said as much - but, now with some of these responses - no, I was not going to keep my mouth shut here! (And PLEASE, try and say now: I did not "try" and get through this. Give me a fucking break!)

**And "Victoria" (Is that right?) Good job. Happy holidays.

***Sorry Jack and Medusa. (And to the mods.)

[WILDCAT]

I don't "truly" mean, literally - "merry F'n X-Mas to ALL", I really mean I am burnt the hell out on this same tired old stuff.

Sorry to those of you who do NOT wear these shoes...

Please forgive me for that. That is my pain talking.

WILDCAT

[BullDog]

Anyone who doesn't want to id as a lesbian- fine and dandy. But some of these so-called definitions of lesbians and lesbian sex coming from non-identified lesbians are truly ridiculous and limited. Lesbians and our language have "evolved" just as much as the rest of the "advanced cutting edge gender identities"- queer/genderqueer etc.

I am real tired of the constant messages that lesbian and woman are somehow antiquated terms that others have evolved from.

I am real tired of how female, woman, lesbian are constantly being ridiculed and minimized in butch femme and queer communities- particularly when attached to butch

This post was written by a Proud Stone Butch Lesbian- who has female oriented sex because I am female and my intimate partners are female (I'm a homosexual, I'm queer, I'm lesbian), and yes I am stone too.

p.s. Cyclopea I saw absolutely nothing hostile in your tone. I thought you were being very matter of fact. I believe what some are saying is that female homosexual has more than one meaning.

[turasultana]

Maybe this will make sense if not... i gave it a go.

Gemme was saying (paraphrasing) that all homosexuals aren't lesbians, which is true even in the broadest sense since men can be homosexuals and not lesbians.

Cyclopea is saying all female homosexuals are lesbians..

But how about if Gemme (or anyone, not trying to put words in her mouth) defines herself as Femme rather than "female". Can we then say:
Femme homosexuals are not all lesbians. (may or may not be).

Would that make sense?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am real tired of the constant messages that lesbian and woman are somehow antiquated terms that others have evolved from.

I am real tired of how female, woman, lesbian are constantly being ridiculed and minimized in butch femme and queer communities- particularly when attached to butch

Bulldog:

I understand and share your frustration and weariness. I, too, am tired of being told that others identity counts, is sacred, is inherently deserving of respect but that my identity is not worth the paper my birth certificate was written on. If I were a butch who was a transman, or preferred to be called 'he' or rejected the word lesbian then I would be hoisted upon many shoulders and carried through the virtual town square with shouts of Huzzah! Huzzah! However, because I prefer (in fact insist) that I be called 'she' and embrace the word lesbian, my identity, my commitment to equality, all manner of imprecations can be drawn about my motives with absolute and utter impunity.

To me, it is important for words to have meaning and for special pleading to be kept to a minimum. As a black woman, I know--intimately, from the very moments that I was aware that there was a society outside of my family--that in a world where special pleading is allowed to run rampant, eventually, inevitably, I and my people will lose. How so? "All men are created equal (except blacks)". That was the reigning ideology for first 190 years of America's existence as a nation-state. Racism is a case of special pleading "for everyone excepting them". Even when it looks like special pleading might make me a winner by working in my favor, it doesn't. Affirmative action being a particular case. I have heard people say behind my back(and to my face) that I was nothing more than an affirmative action hire. So even a system that allegedly is supposed to benefit me works against me because rules are not being applied equally.

If we can define words to mean whatever the hell we want them to mean, in the moment that it is convenient for us to do so, as if this were through the looking glass, then what is to stop a heterosexual, chromosonal (XY) male from saying "I identify as a lesbian and therefore, I get to come into lesbian spaces and talk about lesbians as an authority because I am a lesbian". If lesbian has no necessary connection to either being woman (whatever your chromosomes are--to me a transwoman is a woman) or homosexual then what is a lesbian? It appears that, in fact, what is being said is that lesbian has neither a proximate or sufficient relationship to either the words female (or woman) or homosexual.

Lastly, it makes me wonder--as I sometimes wonder about the field of biology--what our sins as lesbians (or butches) were that our identities are not worthy of respect. And they are consistently treated as if they are not. It is not all in our heads. Too many of us, from too many disparate backgrounds, all seem to keep coming to this same place of "why is it okay for the most horrible things to be said about butches (or lesbians) but it is a capital crime to say anything, including the idea that lesbian identity is worthy of some respect, that might be taken as diminishing by someone of a different identity". I have tried, to the best of my ability, to step back from this and try to work off the assumption that it is all in my head. I then run little thought experiments based upon my own observations of how my species behaves and end up coming back to 'this doesn't really quite work'. I wish I knew what my sins were, as a butch, female-identified, lesbian so that if they are ongoing sins I could at least change my behavior and put myself, once again, in the circle of those who are considered worthy of respect. If my sins are wholly in the past, I would like to know what they were.

Yet no one will tell us the nature of our crimes, the charges are not read to us and we are not even allowed to challenge our accusers or cross-examine our prosecutors. Any attempts to do so are immediately dismissed.

It seems that all one has to do is say "FOR ME" and one is given a free pass to say anything one wishes about lesbians or butches and call us children of some lesser and unworthy god.

Cheers
Aj

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Anyone who doesn't want to id as a lesbian- fine and dandy. But some of these so-called definitions of lesbians and lesbian sex coming from non-identified lesbians are truly ridiculous and limited. Lesbians and our language have "evolved" just as much as the rest of the "advanced cutting edge gender identities"- queer/genderqueer etc.

I am real tired of the constant messages that lesbian and woman are somehow antiquated terms that others have evolved from.

I am real tired of how female, woman, lesbian are constantly being ridiculed and minimized in butch femme and queer communities- particularly when attached to butch

This post was written by a Proud Stone Butch Lesbian- who has female oriented sex because I am female and my intimate partners are female (I'm a homosexual, I'm queer, I'm lesbian), and yes I am stone too.

p.s. Cyclopea I saw absolutely nothing hostile in your tone. I thought you were being very matter of fact. I believe what some are saying is that female homosexual has more than one meaning.

hi Bulldog,

i wanted to take time to comment on your very honest and feeling post because i am the trouble maker in this conversation.

thank you for putting words to your feelings. i appreciate hearing them very sincerely.

i do not find it necessary, satisfying, relevant, desirable or appropriate to "ridicule" or "minimize" anyone...not women, not lesbians, not butches, not femmes, not transpersons, not genderqueers, not anyone. even Hitler gets 1 point on the scoreboard from me (he was a good artist).

i do not think the terms lesbian and woman are antiquated. i do not think they are irrelevant. if i have not made myself clear, i apologize. i see nothing wrong with any word i can think of. i wouldnt presume to find language offensive. i find it limiting at times, and i like watching its expansion, but i do not think it is wrong or right or any of those qualifying words. language just is.

i will make my point with something you said that proves the ways in which people using the same language can hear or understand 2 vastly different things. you said:

p.s. Cyclopea I saw absolutely nothing hostile in your tone. I thought you were being very matter of fact. I believe what some are saying is that female homosexual has more than one meaning.

i thought that Cyclopea was saying exactly the opposite.

thank you again for your honesty.