"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Do you find it problematic that there are homosexual women/lesbians in the world who are sexually oriented to other women? Or do you find it problematic that there are words to describe gay females? Do you feel the words that describe lesbian/homosexual women need to be broadened, because lesbians just take up too much danged space in the world, or have too many danged rights? Why do you, as a non-lesbian have an issue with the words lesbian/female homosexual to describe women affectationally and sexually oriented to other women?

Do you find it problematic that there are women who do not identify as heterosexual and also choose to not identify as lesbian?

Why do you, as a lesbian, have an issue with the words non-heterosexual-but-not-lesbian may choose to not use to describe themselves.

The issue here it that it seems, Cyclopea, that you are trying to define other people's self i.d.

Why is that? I am truly curious. Does it somehow reflect on you if I choose to say that I am not a lesbian?

I could go into chapter and verse on why I choose not to call myself a lesbian, but maybe you would like to read the thread Open Letter: Dear Femme where this is addressed to some extent.

Bottom line is that no one gets to define me but me.

Your tone is couched in rather dogmatic language (which I also do so I'm fine with that). You might want to reread your posts and ask yourself if you are asking, demanding or going into lecture mode.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Do you find it problematic that there are women who do not identify as heterosexual and also choose to not identify as lesbian?
Not at all, I think it's great and consider them allies.
Why do you, as a lesbian, have an issue with the words non-heterosexual-but-not-lesbian may choose to not use to describe themselves.
I don't!

The issue here it that it seems, Cyclopea, that you are trying to define other people's self i.d.
Not at all! That is simply not true.

Why is that? I am truly curious. Does it somehow reflect on you if I choose to say that I am not a lesbian?
Why are terms decribing lesbian/female homosexuals so problematic to non-heterosexual-but-not-lesbian people? I just don't get it. And as I said a few posts back, I would never ever want someone to ID as lesbian/female homosexual if they were not one! Frankly I'm offended that you would read so much into my posts that is not there, and I wonder why...


I could go into chapter and verse on why I choose not to call myself a lesbian, but maybe you would like to read the thread Open Letter: Dear Femme where this is addressed to some extent.
As I posted earlier in the thread I would never want someone to ID as a lesbian who was not a lesbian/homosexual female. Ever. I accept and respect them as they are. Or did you skip that post?

Bottom line is that no one gets to define me but me.
I never said otherwise so please don't make such unfair accusations.

Your tone is couched in rather dogmatic language (which I also do so I'm fine with that). You might want to reread your posts and ask yourself if you are asking, demanding or going into lecture mode. Wow, very harsh.

Please read my previous posts before making ugly accusations and personal attacks. Thanks.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Please read my previous posts before making ugly accusations and personal attacks. Thanks.

Thanks but I have read and actually enjoyed most of your posts. I am sorry if you found my words as "ugly accusations and personal attacks." They were not meant to be at all. I simply wanted to give you an opportunity to reread your post that I was referring too.

Simply restating your point over and over is not discussion to me.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Thanks but I have read and actually enjoyed most of your posts. I am sorry if you found my words as "ugly accusations and personal attacks." They were not meant to be at all. I simply wanted to give you an opportunity to reread your post that I was referring too.

Simply restating your point over and over is not discussion to me.

I repeated my point over and over because my actual point was very simple. It was not about how sex defines orientation, or certainly not what non-lesbians should call themselves, or any of the other issues raised by non-lesbians in response. And yes, I am getting a bit frazzled feeling forced to reiterate my simple point.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

I repeated my point over and over because my actual point was very simple. It was not about how sex defines orientation, or certainly not what non-lesbians should call themselves, or any of the other issues raised by non-lesbians in response. And yes, I am getting a bit frazzled feeling forced to reiterate my simple point.

I do understand getting frazzled, Cyclopea. Maybe if you take a step back, you will find a fresh way to approach it. I don't know about you, but I find that hammering the same nail with the same hammer only ruins the board.

I am not trying to attack you. I am simply trying to find out if there is room in that definition of "female homosexual" for a woman who is not a heterosexual but not, in my heart anyway, a "true" lesbian.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I do understand getting frazzled, Cyclopea. Maybe if you take a step back, you will find a fresh way to approach it. I don't know about you, but I find that hammering the same nail with the same hammer only ruins the board.

I am not trying to attack you. I am simply trying to find out if there is room in that definition of "female homosexual" for a woman who is not a heterosexual but not, in my heart anyway, a "true" lesbian.

I'm sure you're right. I tried to step out of the thread earlier but people kept posting completely unrelated (and loaded) responses to my simple linguistic point.
And some read all sorts of "anti" stuff into it that I don't feel at all.
And that whole thing of wanting people to ID as lesbian/female homosexual who weren't- that certainly didn't come from me! I appreciate our allies! Just as they are!