Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[nowandthen]

Here is a link to a man who Killed his two dogs to go on vacation. I had not heard about this until someone pointed it out to me yesterday.
http://www.care2.com/news/member/100041282/1178124

I have a pit/mix who has been attack 3 times by little dogs running up and trying to bite her. So I agree with many here. 1. dogs will act like dogs trained or not. 2. owners must understand the breed. 3. Racism is involved in everything, right or wrong. 4. using not relative situations to make a universal statement always backfires, nothing is universal. 5. If you go to the store and buy food including vegetables you participate in system of food. (truck delivery,water)

Yes, even if you are a vegan, you participate less and I support your choice, but we live in a first world country with a different value system that exploits other countries for our food systems as well as our own.
Anyway, my point is this, Animal abuse/Dog fighting is wrong.
He did his time, for me he lost the right to own a dog. He has a right to make a living. Racism is at play in the redemption narrative, who gets it who does not.
I for one do not know what is in another's heart or mind, or what pain looks like or how anyone but myself looks like. This media age gives a false sense of what is real or felt, I have misread many e-mails,post,pictures through my own lens and narrative and have been way wrong.
If we want to talk about football start a football thread.
and Last and probable the most controversial thing I am going to say is this, as a white american it becomes more and more important for me to unlearn the first world white privilege narrative ( colonialism), by this I mean fitting everything into how I have been trained to hear,read,and think. For me, animal abuse is wrong simple, but I do not grow or raise my food so I by my complicity abuse animals. I own leather, drive a truck, and buy plastic that ends up in the ocean or around a Sea-lions neck. Not long ago White folks had picnics at lynchings, I may have a relative that watched, just so you know the Irish were the most lynched prior to the civil war. There are those who believe BDSM is violent and abusive, I lived through the 80's. The War machine. Again, We all are complicate and participated in some form that is contributing to violence against both people and animals,
So the glass house and rock story seems to need review.

[nowandthen]

Originally Posted by nowandthen

Here is a link to a man who Killed his two dogs to go on vacation. I had not heard about this until someone pointed it out to me yesterday.
http://www.care2.com/news/member/100041282/1178124

I have a pit/mix who has been attack 3 times by little dogs running up and trying to bite her. So I agree with many here. 1. dogs will act like dogs trained or not. 2. owners must understand the breed. 3. Racism is involved in everything, right or wrong. 4. using not relative situations to make a universal statement always backfires, nothing is universal. 5. If you go to the store and buy food including vegetables you participate in system of food. (truck delivery,water)

Yes, even if you are a vegan, you participate less and I support your choice, but we live in a first world country with a different value system that exploits other countries for our food systems as well as our own.
Anyway, my point is this, Animal abuse/Dog fighting is wrong.
He did his time, for me he lost the right to own a dog. He has a right to make a living. Racism is at play in the redemption narrative, who gets it who does not.
I for one do not know what is in another's heart or mind, or what pain looks like or how anyone but myself looks like. This media age gives a false sense of what is real or felt, I have misread many e-mails,post,pictures through my own lens and narrative and have been way wrong.
If we want to talk about football start a football thread.
and Last and probable the most controversial thing I am going to say is this, as a white american it becomes more and more important for me to unlearn the first world white privilege narrative ( colonialism), by this I mean fitting everything into how I have been trained to hear,read,and think. For me, animal abuse is wrong simple, but I do not grow or raise my food so I by my complicity abuse animals. I own leather, drive a truck, and buy plastic that ends up in the ocean or around a Sea-lions neck. Not long ago White folks had picnics at lynchings, I may have a relative that watched, just so you know the Irish were the most lynched prior to the civil war. There are those who believe BDSM is violent and abusive, I lived through the 80's. The War machine. Again, We all are complicate and participated in some form that is contributing to violence against both people and animals,
So the glass house and rock story seems to need review.

A friend just sent me this on face book after I hit sent on here.
http://www.thenation.com/blog/157372...-animal-rights

[nowandthen]

A friend just sent me this on face book after I hit sent on here.
http://www.thenation.com/blog/157372...-animal-rights

I find my brain can not always express clearly what I am trying to convey. to be clear I was trying to express some of what the Professor here is speaking to and trying not to derail the conversation. I mostly likely failed in my articulation, but I agree that doing it wrong or badly teaches me more than when I do it right.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by June

From the article nowandthen posted a link to. So, how is this different? It was only two dogs? This fucker "rescued" two dogs, then dispatched them when they became an inconvenience. Look at his sentence. Look at his motives. Shall we forgo the justice system for him too? String him up? Make sure he never works again? Do you get the same visceral feelings? -- June

---------------------------------------------------------------



The POS pictured on the right is David Santuomo, 43, a Columbus, OH, firefighter who last December wanted to go on a cruise with his girlfriend but did want to pay for boarding for his two adopted dogs, Sloopy and Skeeter. So to save himself some money, he took his dogs into the basement, tie them to a pipe suspending their bodies and shot them both numerous times. He then dumped their bodies on the plastic he had already laid out, wrapped them up and dumped them in a trash bin behind the fire station where he worked. What makes this even sadder is that at least two neighbors had offered to watch the dogs while he was away.

This week, as part of a plea deal, Santuomo pleaded guilty to two counts of animal cruelty and one count of possessing a criminal tool a homemade silencer, all three misdemeanors. Franklin County Municipal Judge Harland H. Hale sentenced him to 90 days, to be served over 2 years, $4,500 in restitution, $150 fine, 200 hours of community service and he cannot possess any pets or firearms for 5 years. He also has to write a letter of apology to a firefighters magazine and to readers of The Dispatch newspaper. He has yet to face an internal disciplinary hearing with Fire Chief Ned Pettus Jr.

Felony charges were not pursued because there is no felony animal cruelty law in Ohio!!

After shooting and killing the two dogs he had adopted from the humane society, Santuomo was actually so proud of himself that he bragged to fellow firefighters. Thankfully, they were were not amused, but disgusted by his actions and his bragging.

“He later bragged about killing his pets to fellow firefighters, and he showed no remorse, even joking about it,” Assistant County Prosecutor Heather Robinson said. “Fellow firefighters were disgusted by what he did, and the Capital Area Humane Society was called to investigate.”

His lawyer calls his actions an isolated case and out of character but it seems Santuomo showed his character quite clearly when he gave courtroom reporters the finger.

And this waste of human life is still working as a firefighter!! Is this someone you would want to trust your life, or the lives of your precious furry family members to in the case of an emergency?? After pleading guilty he should have been removed from his position immediately! Fired!! And I’d also like to know what this business is of him being allowed to serve his measly 90 day sentence over a period of 2 years?? What makes him so special?

I wonder if that guy Tucker will call for his death.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Organicbutch

I wonder if that guy Tucker will call for his death.

Of course not...cuz...ummmmm....he's a firefighter.

[BullDog]

Why don't people put their passion and energy into all the women and children that white men abuse? Why not focus on the white male power system that makes people of color, women, children, animals and the environment instruments of their control? That's where the locus of the mis-use and abuse of power is.

If ALL people (not just white men) were treated with respect, dignity and as equals maybe collectively we would treat our animals better too. How can you expect animals to be treated well in such a fucked up world with such fucked up value systems? Get to the root of the problems. People abuse animals because they think they have the right to.

[julieisafemme]

[QUOTE=BullDog;256233]Why don't people their passion and energy into all the women and children that white men abuse? Why not focus on the white male power system that makes people of color, women, children, animals and the environment instruments of their control? That's where the locus of the mis-use and abuse of power is.

If ALL people (not just white men) were treated with respect, dignity and as equals maybe collectively we would treat our animals better too. How can you expect animals to be treated well in such a fucked up world with such fucked up value systems? Get to the root of the problems. People abuse animals because they think they have the right to.[/QUOTE]


That's exactly what I have been saying BullDog. The root of the problem is the othering which allows us to view animals and other human beings as less than and therefore not worthy of decent treatment. I think others have been saying this too. So that is where my passion and energy is going.

Fighting for the rights of animals is not overlooking or not fighting for the rights of women and children. And the reverse is true as well. Anytime someone fights for the rights of queers, POC, women, animals, children and so on they are helping to fight for all of us. At least that is how I see it.

[blush]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Why don't people put their passion and energy into all the women and children that white men abuse? Why not focus on the white male power system that makes people of color, women, children, animals and the environment instruments of their control? That's where the locus of the mis-use and abuse of power is.

If ALL people (not just white men) were treated with respect, dignity and as equals maybe collectively we would treat our animals better too. How can you expect animals to be treated well in such a fucked up world with such fucked up value systems? Get to the root of the problems. People abuse animals because they think they have the right to.

I don't disagree with you, but to be fair, this thread is mostly about the repercussions of Michael Vick's phone call from Obama. It isn't shocking to me that posters are focusing more on that aspect. Awareness and discussions about any type of abuse doesn't detract from or "waste space" about other types of abuse. It's not like we have an empathy threshold.

I'd love to see a thread about the intersection of football and domestic violence.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Organicbutch

I wonder if that guy Tucker will call for his death.

I wouldn't put the change in my pocket on Tucker calling for his death. Hell, I'm willing to bet that someone on FOX will excuse the man!

Cheers
Aj

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by June

From the article nowandthen posted a link to. So, how is this different? It was only two dogs? This fucker "rescued" two dogs, then dispatched them when they became an inconvenience. Look at his sentence. Look at his motives. Shall we forgo the justice system for him too? String him up? Make sure he never works again? Do you get the same visceral feelings? -- June

An absolute POS indeed...and a perfect example of the inherent unfairness of our "justice" system. I also find it absolutely disturbing that there is no such thing as felony animal abuse in the state. So...no matter how disgusting, how massive, how horrible the abuse is...it's not a felony. That's outrageous...and a pretty horrific failure of the legislature.

Honestly, since there's no way to convict him of a felony...I'd love to see the Humane Society sue his ass off...so they can use those funds to help animals. Seems like his adoption of the animals probably included some kind of agreement to take responsible care of them...

[The_Lady_Snow]

Well June.

He's white, he gets a second chance.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by June

From the article nowandthen posted a link to. So, how is this different? It was only two dogs? This fucker "rescued" two dogs, then dispatched them when they became an inconvenience. Look at his sentence. Look at his motives. Shall we forgo the justice system for him too? String him up? Make sure he never works again? Do you get the same visceral feelings? -- June

---------------------------------------------------------------



The POS pictured on the right is David Santuomo, 43, a Columbus, OH, firefighter who last December wanted to go on a cruise with his girlfriend but did want to pay for boarding for his two adopted dogs, Sloopy and Skeeter. So to save himself some money, he took his dogs into the basement, tie them to a pipe suspending their bodies and shot them both numerous times. He then dumped their bodies on the plastic he had already laid out, wrapped them up and dumped them in a trash bin behind the fire station where he worked. What makes this even sadder is that at least two neighbors had offered to watch the dogs while he was away.

This week, as part of a plea deal, Santuomo pleaded guilty to two counts of animal cruelty and one count of possessing a criminal tool a homemade silencer, all three misdemeanors. Franklin County Municipal Judge Harland H. Hale sentenced him to 90 days, to be served over 2 years, $4,500 in restitution, $150 fine, 200 hours of community service and he cannot possess any pets or firearms for 5 years. He also has to write a letter of apology to a firefighters magazine and to readers of The Dispatch newspaper. He has yet to face an internal disciplinary hearing with Fire Chief Ned Pettus Jr.

Felony charges were not pursued because there is no felony animal cruelty law in Ohio!!

After shooting and killing the two dogs he had adopted from the humane society, Santuomo was actually so proud of himself that he bragged to fellow firefighters. Thankfully, they were were not amused, but disgusted by his actions and his bragging.

“He later bragged about killing his pets to fellow firefighters, and he showed no remorse, even joking about it,” Assistant County Prosecutor Heather Robinson said. “Fellow firefighters were disgusted by what he did, and the Capital Area Humane Society was called to investigate.”

His lawyer calls his actions an isolated case and out of character but it seems Santuomo showed his character quite clearly when he gave courtroom reporters the finger.

And this waste of human life is still working as a firefighter!! Is this someone you would want to trust your life, or the lives of your precious furry family members to in the case of an emergency?? After pleading guilty he should have been removed from his position immediately! Fired!! And I’d also like to know what this business is of him being allowed to serve his measly 90 day sentence over a period of 2 years?? What makes him so special?

I do think the POS should face exactly the same punishment that Vick got, and he should be fired, and he should have no further contact with dogs. After serving time he should be able to get a job, just like Vick, but have no further contact with dogs. That the state of Ohio doesn't have felony charges as an option, and he can't be found guilty of a felony, he should face the maximum sentence there is for this crime in this state. Same way I feel about Vick I feel about this asswipe, useless to me, perhaps in the future he can regain employment as Vick has. There is NO Distinction in my mind between the two of them, race isn't the issue FOR ME. The crime IS. I am not pleased that society is fucked up, but it is. Same crime, equal punnishment.
You could ask me to forgive, but with out knowing them I could not, for I don't know if they were telling me the truth. I can live and let live, and I think that is the difference.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I do think the POS should face exactly the same punishment that Vick got, and he should be fired, and he should have no further contact with dogs. After serving time he should be able to get a job, just like Vick, but have no further contact with dogs. That the state of Ohio doesn't have felony charges as an option, and he can't be found guilty of a felony, he should face the maximum sentence there is for this crime in this state. Same way I feel about Vick I feel about this asswipe, useless to me, perhaps in the future he can regain employment as Vick has. There is NO Distinction in my mind between the two of them, race isn't the issue FOR ME. The crime IS. I am not pleased that society is fucked up, but it is. Same crime, equal punnishment.
You could ask me to forgive, but with out knowing them I could not, for I don't know if they were telling me the truth. I can live and let live, and I think that is the difference.

You bring up a salient point here, Corkey--you'll notice that nothing I have said in the last three days of talking about this can be read as me forgiving Vick or proclaiming him my new best friend and boon companion through thick-and-thin. I don't know Mr. Vick and the odds-on chances are that I will never meet him since he lives in an orbit that, quite honestly, I don't aspire to. Blessedly, it is not up to me to forgive him.

I'm a sucker for redemption stories. Maybe because of my own manifest flaws and the ways in which I have lived below my potential or made just mind-numblingly stupid choices. I want to believe that Michael Vick truly feels remorse. Because even though some people--perhaps with good reason--believe that he doesn't feel remorse or doubt it, I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I want to because it would be a better world by a small increment if he felt remorse and was truly determined to go down a different road. I want to because I want to believe my own self-redemption--from something I will not bore you with the details with--was genuine. I hope it was. Everyday I wake up and strive to be a little better than I was yesterday--a little more the woman I dreamt of being, the woman my son saw when he was only six months old, the woman my wife fell in love with, the person I sold myself to my employer as being, etc. I don't believe in any kind of divine beings or afterlife, as far as I can tell, this is It. You have one take at life, there are no rehearsals, and the director said "Action!" the moment you took your first breath we have a limited amount of time in which to figure out how we are going to live. The consequences we wreak on other's lives are very, very real. None of the things I've done that were stupid in galactic proportions were done out of malice or a desire to do evil. Most were done out of selfishness and within a reasonable amount of time, I realized how horribly I'd fucked up. Then I only wanted to make things better. Absent other evidence, I feel bound to give Mr. Vick the benefit of the doubt because I've been a complete fuck-up at times in my life.

That might be pure sentiment on my part. It probably is. I still want to believe that he understands that what he did was wrong, that he only wants to make things right and I hope that his example inspires others to turn away from cruelty. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. I know I would mean it and for all the right reasons. I want to believe that he would to.

Cheers
Aj

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

You bring up a salient point here, Corkey--you'll notice that nothing I have said in the last three days of talking about this can be read as me forgiving Vick or proclaiming him my new best friend and boon companion through thick-and-thin. I don't know Mr. Vick and the odds-on chances are that I will never meet him since he lives in an orbit that, quite honestly, I don't aspire to. Blessedly, it is not up to me to forgive him.

I'm a sucker for redemption stories. Maybe because of my own manifest flaws and the ways in which I have lived below my potential or made just mind-numblingly stupid choices. I want to believe that Michael Vick truly feels remorse. Because even though some people--perhaps with good reason--believe that he doesn't feel remorse or doubt it, I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I want to because it would be a better world by a small increment if he felt remorse and was truly determined to go down a different road. I want to because I want to believe my own self-redemption--from something I will not bore you with the details with--was genuine. I hope it was. Everyday I wake up and strive to be a little better than I was yesterday--a little more the woman I dreamt of being, the woman my son saw when he was only six months old, the woman my wife fell in love with, the person I sold myself to my employer as being, etc. I don't believe in any kind of divine beings or afterlife, as far as I can tell, this is It. You have one take at life, there are no rehearsals, and the director said "Action!" the moment you took your first breath we have a limited amount of time in which to figure out how we are going to live. The consequences we wreak on other's lives are very, very real. None of the things I've done that were stupid in galactic proportions were done out of malice or a desire to do evil. Most were done out of selfishness and within a reasonable amount of time, I realized how horribly I'd fucked up. Then I only wanted to make things better. Absent other evidence, I feel bound to give Mr. Vick the benefit of the doubt because I've been a complete fuck-up at times in my life.

That might be pure sentiment on my part. It probably is. I still want to believe that he understands that what he did was wrong, that he only wants to make things right and I hope that his example inspires others to turn away from cruelty. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. I know I would mean it and for all the right reasons. I want to believe that he would to.

Cheers
Aj

Yasher Koach or continuing strength to you! Thank you for sharing this. What I find resonates the most with me is that you have found a way to forgive yourself. I have found this very difficult to do and it is the key to being able to forgive others or if not in the position to forgive, to at least believe in the potential for redemption.

[dreadgeek]

Saw this at HuffPo and thought it makes a very, very good point.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-z..._b_802821.html

Pundits, man your stations. It seems that the Fox News commentator Tucker Carlson yipped that Eagles quarterback Michael Vick should have been executed three years ago when convicted on dog-fighting charges.

Many are now getting hot and bothered expressing shock that Carlson would actually call for Vick's execution -- a tad extreme even for Fox.

Frankly I was shocked that Carlson, humiliated so thoroughly by Jon Stewart many years ago, still is on the air. The guy has been on more canceled programs than Jennifer Love Hewitt.

In full, the paunchy, lipless, chinless, porcelain man-boy with the ubiquitous bow-tie said, "I'm a Christian, I've made mistakes myself, I believe fervently in second chances. But Michael Vick killed dogs, and he did in a heartless and cruel way. And I think, personally, he should've been executed for that."

I know it's hardly news for a Murdoch-owned, right-wing shock jock to say something shocking. It's like receiving word of a celebrity sex tape. The thrill is gone. I am also well aware that in the current media set up, it's Carlson's job to say something utterly outrageous and the job of people like myself to respond. We make statements about Carlson's peculiar brand of bloodthirsty Christianity. Maybe we point out how easy it is for Carlson to call for the death of an African-American athlete, always the low-hanging fruit for his race-baiting ilk.

We bat this particular ball back and forth like -- as one writer once said to me -- "two hookers working opposite sides of the street." The ensuing hothouse debate becomes an entertainment option for people soured on American Idol.

But there is actually a serious problem with this kind of 24-hour cable performance art when the subject is Michael Vick. It's that pesky entity pecking at the window of reality television known as "reality."

Dostoevsky said famously,"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons." By that standard, the United States exists in a barbaric state. Enter a prison -- something I sincerely doubt Carlson has ever done -- and you see the daily, dreary reality for the 2.3 million people who live behind bars. In what's become the largest prison system on earth -- take that China! -- you see the herded poor stacked on top of one another. You see a world disproportionately black and brown with African-American men six times as likely to go to prison as whites, with one in nine black men between 20-34 living in a state of incarceration.

It's a country that through its addiction to privatized prisons and "tough on crime" legislation, has created what writer Michelle Alexander's calls "The New Jim Crow." In Alexander's book, The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness she details the way the prison system robs its present and past and even future inhabitants of voting rights, citizenship, and any semblance of political power. She points that the United States now imprisons a higher percentage of black men than South Africa at the height of apartheid. As she writes:

Jarvious Cotton's great-great-grandfather could not vote as a slave. His great-grandfather was beaten to death by the Klu Klux Klan for attempting to vote. His grandfather was prevented from voting by Klan intimidation; his father was barred by poll taxes and literacy tests. Today, Cotton cannot vote because he, like many black men in the United States, has been labeled a felon and is currently on parole.

Michael Vick, whether he likes it or not, is humanizing the struggle to find redemption after serving time in a maximum security prison. After all, if a star quarterback doing hours of community surface can't regain a foothold in society, who could? Tucker Carlson's efforts to dehumanize Vick and paint him as a disposable, killable individual cuts in a way that transcends the idiocy of Murdoch's 50-state southern strategy of dimples and dog whistles. I'd love for Carlson to spend even a week in Leavenworth and then make an effort to rebuild his nerfy little life. Then we'd see how a man without callouses could be so callous. This is why Michael Vick's story matters, and really another example -- as if more were needed -- of how Fox News has become a cancerous boil on the political soul of this country.

[suebee]

Aj was kind enough to send me a link to the American Humane Society in regards to the work that Michael Vick has done with them. The part that was most pertenant to what I've been talking about was the following:

Has Vick acknowledged that what he did to dogs was wrong?
Yes. Over the course of several face-to-face meetings and during appearances at our End Dogfighting programs, Vick has apologized and acknowledged the suffering he caused. He has expressed his remorse and his desire to help more animals than he harmed by being an advocate for the humane treatment of animals. We only agreed to give him an opportunity to speak with kids if he was committed to the goal of ending dogfighting and recognized that his past actions were cruel and unacceptable.

The article that has influenced my opinion of Vick the most was in fact reported widely in the media, and stemmed from a Dec 12/10 interview with him, which can be found here.

From this second article, these words most affected me:

The convicted dog-fighting ring operator, who spent 18 months in prison after being convicted in 2007, says he genuinely cares about animals and would love to have a dog as a household pet...again.

"I think it would be a big step for me in the rehabilitation process," he told TheGrio.com, a website that focuses on African-American issues. "I think just to have a pet in my household and to show people that I genuinely care, and my love, and my passion for animals."Unfortunately for the born-again animal lover, a federal judge overseeing Vick's case barred him from owning a dog during his three years of supervised release after prison, which does not end until 2012.

His latest comments to TheGrio.com have generated outrage, as well as support.

Many people believe that Vick, who has returned to the top of his profession, has redeemed himself and should be allowed to adopt or own a pet if he so chooses. On the other end of the spectrum are those who feel Vick should be banned from owning dogs for eternity.

Vick asserts that he is not a crazy person or a psychopath and that his criminal behavior was merely a product of his upbringing.

"What happened in my past and what I did in the culture I grew up in doesn't shape and mold me as the person I am now," he said. Vick continued, "I said it before that I wish I can own a dog and I'll continue to say it. I'm not allowed to, but I'm just saying I wish I could because my kids ask me every day. It's more so for them than for me."

Now I'm not going to say that I am capable of knowing what a man has in his heart simply by reading his words, but while he apparently DID acknowledge that his actions were wrong to the Humane Society officials, I suspect that he was asked specific questions. He'd have to be pretty damned stupid to say that he had no remorse for his actions. I don't know, maybe he changed his way of thinking and truly found a conscience. This is just where I'm a Doubting Susie.

In the second article - an interview, his reasons for owning another dog were to "show people that I genuinely care, and my love and passion for animals." and "because my kids ask me every day". (if they can have a dog). What I find missing from this is any reference to what a dog could bring to his family, or how he sees pet ownership differently than he used to.

These are only words in print. I don't know under what circumstances they were made, nor do I know what was left out of the interview. Maybe Vick has changed, but I guess I'll still have doubts until I see him say something that addresses what *I* think any abuser has to change within themself before they can really say they've changed: and that's their attitude and their belief system.

I hope he's changed. Not only were those innocent animals his victims, but he's let his family down horribly. But you'll all excuse me if I have lingering doubts. This isn't shoplifting we're talking about. It's multiple and systematic acts of horrible cruelty. The best I can do is to keep an open mind. Nothing says I have to like the guy, but on the other hand NOTHING I can do or say or think or feel is going to impact Michael Vick's life. I just hope he can use the rest of his life to positively affect others.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

The consequences we wreak on other's lives are very, very real. None of the things I've done that were stupid in galactic proportions were done out of malice or a desire to do evil. Most were done out of selfishness and within a reasonable amount of time, I realized how horribly I'd fucked up. Then I only wanted to make things better. Absent other evidence, I feel bound to give Mr. Vick the benefit of the doubt because I've been a complete fuck-up at times in my life.

Yes, this exactly. I believe in redemption and second chances. I have screwed up more than I care to share...and my own life would look very different if there were no opportunities to redeem myself, to learn, to grow and to do better the next time around.

I found it interesting that Vick is working with the Humane Society to change the thinking about dog fighting...not with animal advocates, but with those that are participating or at risk of it. He's doing it voluntarily...not because he was ordered to. He's not being paid...in fact he's paying his own expenses as he does this.

Could he be doing this for PR? Sure. Could he have an ulterior motive? Sure.

But could he also be doing this because somewhere in the middle of that prison sentence he had an epiphany, or grew, and realized that he wanted to make up for what he'd done and keep others from going down the same path? Sure.

I don't know which it is. I can't know. But I have to give him the opportunity to redeem himself without judgment.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't know if anyone remembers the Columbus, Ohio firefighter who killed his dogs to avoid boarding them was sentenced to 90 days in jail.

[purepisces]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I don't know if anyone remembers the Columbus, Ohio firefighter who killed his dogs to avoid boarding them was sentenced to 90 days in jail.

I never even heard about this!

But, living in Texas, my entire state seems to have little interest in the welfare of animals. It's rarely something I see on the local news. I would like to think that there would be such a local outrage against this firefighter that he would lose his job. I certainly wouldn't trust someone capable of that type of action with my life or the life of my family.