Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I do think the POS should face exactly the same punishment that Vick got, and he should be fired, and he should have no further contact with dogs. After serving time he should be able to get a job, just like Vick, but have no further contact with dogs. That the state of Ohio doesn't have felony charges as an option, and he can't be found guilty of a felony, he should face the maximum sentence there is for this crime in this state. Same way I feel about Vick I feel about this asswipe, useless to me, perhaps in the future he can regain employment as Vick has. There is NO Distinction in my mind between the two of them, race isn't the issue FOR ME. The crime IS. I am not pleased that society is fucked up, but it is. Same crime, equal punnishment.
You could ask me to forgive, but with out knowing them I could not, for I don't know if they were telling me the truth. I can live and let live, and I think that is the difference.

You bring up a salient point here, Corkey--you'll notice that nothing I have said in the last three days of talking about this can be read as me forgiving Vick or proclaiming him my new best friend and boon companion through thick-and-thin. I don't know Mr. Vick and the odds-on chances are that I will never meet him since he lives in an orbit that, quite honestly, I don't aspire to. Blessedly, it is not up to me to forgive him.

I'm a sucker for redemption stories. Maybe because of my own manifest flaws and the ways in which I have lived below my potential or made just mind-numblingly stupid choices. I want to believe that Michael Vick truly feels remorse. Because even though some people--perhaps with good reason--believe that he doesn't feel remorse or doubt it, I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I want to because it would be a better world by a small increment if he felt remorse and was truly determined to go down a different road. I want to because I want to believe my own self-redemption--from something I will not bore you with the details with--was genuine. I hope it was. Everyday I wake up and strive to be a little better than I was yesterday--a little more the woman I dreamt of being, the woman my son saw when he was only six months old, the woman my wife fell in love with, the person I sold myself to my employer as being, etc. I don't believe in any kind of divine beings or afterlife, as far as I can tell, this is It. You have one take at life, there are no rehearsals, and the director said "Action!" the moment you took your first breath we have a limited amount of time in which to figure out how we are going to live. The consequences we wreak on other's lives are very, very real. None of the things I've done that were stupid in galactic proportions were done out of malice or a desire to do evil. Most were done out of selfishness and within a reasonable amount of time, I realized how horribly I'd fucked up. Then I only wanted to make things better. Absent other evidence, I feel bound to give Mr. Vick the benefit of the doubt because I've been a complete fuck-up at times in my life.

That might be pure sentiment on my part. It probably is. I still want to believe that he understands that what he did was wrong, that he only wants to make things right and I hope that his example inspires others to turn away from cruelty. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. I know I would mean it and for all the right reasons. I want to believe that he would to.

Cheers
Aj

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

You bring up a salient point here, Corkey--you'll notice that nothing I have said in the last three days of talking about this can be read as me forgiving Vick or proclaiming him my new best friend and boon companion through thick-and-thin. I don't know Mr. Vick and the odds-on chances are that I will never meet him since he lives in an orbit that, quite honestly, I don't aspire to. Blessedly, it is not up to me to forgive him.

I'm a sucker for redemption stories. Maybe because of my own manifest flaws and the ways in which I have lived below my potential or made just mind-numblingly stupid choices. I want to believe that Michael Vick truly feels remorse. Because even though some people--perhaps with good reason--believe that he doesn't feel remorse or doubt it, I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I want to because it would be a better world by a small increment if he felt remorse and was truly determined to go down a different road. I want to because I want to believe my own self-redemption--from something I will not bore you with the details with--was genuine. I hope it was. Everyday I wake up and strive to be a little better than I was yesterday--a little more the woman I dreamt of being, the woman my son saw when he was only six months old, the woman my wife fell in love with, the person I sold myself to my employer as being, etc. I don't believe in any kind of divine beings or afterlife, as far as I can tell, this is It. You have one take at life, there are no rehearsals, and the director said "Action!" the moment you took your first breath we have a limited amount of time in which to figure out how we are going to live. The consequences we wreak on other's lives are very, very real. None of the things I've done that were stupid in galactic proportions were done out of malice or a desire to do evil. Most were done out of selfishness and within a reasonable amount of time, I realized how horribly I'd fucked up. Then I only wanted to make things better. Absent other evidence, I feel bound to give Mr. Vick the benefit of the doubt because I've been a complete fuck-up at times in my life.

That might be pure sentiment on my part. It probably is. I still want to believe that he understands that what he did was wrong, that he only wants to make things right and I hope that his example inspires others to turn away from cruelty. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. I know I would mean it and for all the right reasons. I want to believe that he would to.

Cheers
Aj

Yasher Koach or continuing strength to you! Thank you for sharing this. What I find resonates the most with me is that you have found a way to forgive yourself. I have found this very difficult to do and it is the key to being able to forgive others or if not in the position to forgive, to at least believe in the potential for redemption.

[dreadgeek]

Saw this at HuffPo and thought it makes a very, very good point.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-z..._b_802821.html

Pundits, man your stations. It seems that the Fox News commentator Tucker Carlson yipped that Eagles quarterback Michael Vick should have been executed three years ago when convicted on dog-fighting charges.

Many are now getting hot and bothered expressing shock that Carlson would actually call for Vick's execution -- a tad extreme even for Fox.

Frankly I was shocked that Carlson, humiliated so thoroughly by Jon Stewart many years ago, still is on the air. The guy has been on more canceled programs than Jennifer Love Hewitt.

In full, the paunchy, lipless, chinless, porcelain man-boy with the ubiquitous bow-tie said, "I'm a Christian, I've made mistakes myself, I believe fervently in second chances. But Michael Vick killed dogs, and he did in a heartless and cruel way. And I think, personally, he should've been executed for that."

I know it's hardly news for a Murdoch-owned, right-wing shock jock to say something shocking. It's like receiving word of a celebrity sex tape. The thrill is gone. I am also well aware that in the current media set up, it's Carlson's job to say something utterly outrageous and the job of people like myself to respond. We make statements about Carlson's peculiar brand of bloodthirsty Christianity. Maybe we point out how easy it is for Carlson to call for the death of an African-American athlete, always the low-hanging fruit for his race-baiting ilk.

We bat this particular ball back and forth like -- as one writer once said to me -- "two hookers working opposite sides of the street." The ensuing hothouse debate becomes an entertainment option for people soured on American Idol.

But there is actually a serious problem with this kind of 24-hour cable performance art when the subject is Michael Vick. It's that pesky entity pecking at the window of reality television known as "reality."

Dostoevsky said famously,"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons." By that standard, the United States exists in a barbaric state. Enter a prison -- something I sincerely doubt Carlson has ever done -- and you see the daily, dreary reality for the 2.3 million people who live behind bars. In what's become the largest prison system on earth -- take that China! -- you see the herded poor stacked on top of one another. You see a world disproportionately black and brown with African-American men six times as likely to go to prison as whites, with one in nine black men between 20-34 living in a state of incarceration.

It's a country that through its addiction to privatized prisons and "tough on crime" legislation, has created what writer Michelle Alexander's calls "The New Jim Crow." In Alexander's book, The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness she details the way the prison system robs its present and past and even future inhabitants of voting rights, citizenship, and any semblance of political power. She points that the United States now imprisons a higher percentage of black men than South Africa at the height of apartheid. As she writes:

Jarvious Cotton's great-great-grandfather could not vote as a slave. His great-grandfather was beaten to death by the Klu Klux Klan for attempting to vote. His grandfather was prevented from voting by Klan intimidation; his father was barred by poll taxes and literacy tests. Today, Cotton cannot vote because he, like many black men in the United States, has been labeled a felon and is currently on parole.

Michael Vick, whether he likes it or not, is humanizing the struggle to find redemption after serving time in a maximum security prison. After all, if a star quarterback doing hours of community surface can't regain a foothold in society, who could? Tucker Carlson's efforts to dehumanize Vick and paint him as a disposable, killable individual cuts in a way that transcends the idiocy of Murdoch's 50-state southern strategy of dimples and dog whistles. I'd love for Carlson to spend even a week in Leavenworth and then make an effort to rebuild his nerfy little life. Then we'd see how a man without callouses could be so callous. This is why Michael Vick's story matters, and really another example -- as if more were needed -- of how Fox News has become a cancerous boil on the political soul of this country.

[suebee]

Aj was kind enough to send me a link to the American Humane Society in regards to the work that Michael Vick has done with them. The part that was most pertenant to what I've been talking about was the following:

Has Vick acknowledged that what he did to dogs was wrong?
Yes. Over the course of several face-to-face meetings and during appearances at our End Dogfighting programs, Vick has apologized and acknowledged the suffering he caused. He has expressed his remorse and his desire to help more animals than he harmed by being an advocate for the humane treatment of animals. We only agreed to give him an opportunity to speak with kids if he was committed to the goal of ending dogfighting and recognized that his past actions were cruel and unacceptable.

The article that has influenced my opinion of Vick the most was in fact reported widely in the media, and stemmed from a Dec 12/10 interview with him, which can be found here.

From this second article, these words most affected me:

The convicted dog-fighting ring operator, who spent 18 months in prison after being convicted in 2007, says he genuinely cares about animals and would love to have a dog as a household pet...again.

"I think it would be a big step for me in the rehabilitation process," he told TheGrio.com, a website that focuses on African-American issues. "I think just to have a pet in my household and to show people that I genuinely care, and my love, and my passion for animals."Unfortunately for the born-again animal lover, a federal judge overseeing Vick's case barred him from owning a dog during his three years of supervised release after prison, which does not end until 2012.

His latest comments to TheGrio.com have generated outrage, as well as support.

Many people believe that Vick, who has returned to the top of his profession, has redeemed himself and should be allowed to adopt or own a pet if he so chooses. On the other end of the spectrum are those who feel Vick should be banned from owning dogs for eternity.

Vick asserts that he is not a crazy person or a psychopath and that his criminal behavior was merely a product of his upbringing.

"What happened in my past and what I did in the culture I grew up in doesn't shape and mold me as the person I am now," he said. Vick continued, "I said it before that I wish I can own a dog and I'll continue to say it. I'm not allowed to, but I'm just saying I wish I could because my kids ask me every day. It's more so for them than for me."

Now I'm not going to say that I am capable of knowing what a man has in his heart simply by reading his words, but while he apparently DID acknowledge that his actions were wrong to the Humane Society officials, I suspect that he was asked specific questions. He'd have to be pretty damned stupid to say that he had no remorse for his actions. I don't know, maybe he changed his way of thinking and truly found a conscience. This is just where I'm a Doubting Susie.

In the second article - an interview, his reasons for owning another dog were to "show people that I genuinely care, and my love and passion for animals." and "because my kids ask me every day". (if they can have a dog). What I find missing from this is any reference to what a dog could bring to his family, or how he sees pet ownership differently than he used to.

These are only words in print. I don't know under what circumstances they were made, nor do I know what was left out of the interview. Maybe Vick has changed, but I guess I'll still have doubts until I see him say something that addresses what *I* think any abuser has to change within themself before they can really say they've changed: and that's their attitude and their belief system.

I hope he's changed. Not only were those innocent animals his victims, but he's let his family down horribly. But you'll all excuse me if I have lingering doubts. This isn't shoplifting we're talking about. It's multiple and systematic acts of horrible cruelty. The best I can do is to keep an open mind. Nothing says I have to like the guy, but on the other hand NOTHING I can do or say or think or feel is going to impact Michael Vick's life. I just hope he can use the rest of his life to positively affect others.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by suebee

In the second article - an interview, his reasons for owning another dog were to "show people that I genuinely care, and my love and passion for animals." and "because my kids ask me every day". (if they can have a dog). What I find missing from this is any reference to what a dog could bring to his family, or how he sees pet ownership differently than he used to.

I just want to say that this could just as easily be an artifact of editing rather than an artifact of either sentiment or writing. I'm not saying that is the case, simply saying that the parts of the interview that might be most germane here are not necessarily the parts that the editor thought would be most germane for the audience of the web site.

Cheers
Aj

[Martina]

You all have touched on the same point re the Ohio case. This is a quote from the article from The Nation that someone linked to.

Carlson did not call for the execution of BP executives despite their culpability in the devastation of Gulf wildlife. He did not denounce the Supreme Court for their decision in US v. Stevens (April 2010) which overturned a portion of the 1999 Act Punishing Depictions of Animal Cruelty. After all with this "crush" decision the Court seems to have validated a marketplace for exactly the kinds of crimes Vick was convicted of committing. For many observers, the decision to demonize Vick seems motivated by something more pernicious than concern for animal welfare. It seems to be about race.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

The consequences we wreak on other's lives are very, very real. None of the things I've done that were stupid in galactic proportions were done out of malice or a desire to do evil. Most were done out of selfishness and within a reasonable amount of time, I realized how horribly I'd fucked up. Then I only wanted to make things better. Absent other evidence, I feel bound to give Mr. Vick the benefit of the doubt because I've been a complete fuck-up at times in my life.

Yes, this exactly. I believe in redemption and second chances. I have screwed up more than I care to share...and my own life would look very different if there were no opportunities to redeem myself, to learn, to grow and to do better the next time around.

I found it interesting that Vick is working with the Humane Society to change the thinking about dog fighting...not with animal advocates, but with those that are participating or at risk of it. He's doing it voluntarily...not because he was ordered to. He's not being paid...in fact he's paying his own expenses as he does this.

Could he be doing this for PR? Sure. Could he have an ulterior motive? Sure.

But could he also be doing this because somewhere in the middle of that prison sentence he had an epiphany, or grew, and realized that he wanted to make up for what he'd done and keep others from going down the same path? Sure.

I don't know which it is. I can't know. But I have to give him the opportunity to redeem himself without judgment.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't know if anyone remembers the Columbus, Ohio firefighter who killed his dogs to avoid boarding them was sentenced to 90 days in jail.

[purepisces]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I don't know if anyone remembers the Columbus, Ohio firefighter who killed his dogs to avoid boarding them was sentenced to 90 days in jail.

I never even heard about this!

But, living in Texas, my entire state seems to have little interest in the welfare of animals. It's rarely something I see on the local news. I would like to think that there would be such a local outrage against this firefighter that he would lose his job. I certainly wouldn't trust someone capable of that type of action with my life or the life of my family.

[dykeumentary]

What are your thoughts on South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by purepisces

I never even heard about this!

But, living in Texas, my entire state seems to have little interest in the welfare of animals. It's rarely something I see on the local news. I would like to think that there would be such a local outrage against this firefighter that he would lose his job. I certainly wouldn't trust someone capable of that type of action with my life or the life of my family.

Here:

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-08/j...es?_s=PM:CRIME

Santuomo was sentenced to 90 days in jail, to be served in 10-day increments over the next two years. He also has to pay $4,500 in restitution, perform 200 hours of community service, stay away from companion animals for five years and write a letter of apology to be published in the local newspaper and the International Association of Firefighters magazine, the humane society's Miller said.


And he was fired, actually:
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stor...1_MNEGG30.html



ETA: The judge had said he could do the 90 days in increments of 10 days only if he was employed, so after getting fired, that was removed.