Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[Diva]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Diva:

Please see my post above regarding your last sentence. You can have the reaction that this man should be sent to, say, Egypt where there ARE no laws against torture and that he should be given a full and complete tour through the meaning of 'medieval torture methods' before being allowed to die and never ONCE have a single conscious thought about a 'big, scary black man'. I don't think you, Sachita, or anyone else involved in this discussion is consciously thinking "big scary black man" or "teach blacks a lesson about cruelty" but I DO think that it is reflexive for members of the American ethnic majority to view blacks and Latinos as more dangerous.

And I defend Your right to say this. But I just don't think that way.

Now, since you mention the dogs, I'll say something else. Had it turned out that one of the dogs had turned on Mr. Vick and taken a bite out of his neck severing his jugular and causing his death, I would shrug my shoulders and say that he got what he deserved. If he were only maimed or disfigured, I'd still shrug and say that he got what he deserved.

But that's not what we are talking about. What we're talking about is what *society* should do with or about Mr. Vick and that is what my concern is--that and what our motivations are for wanting to do or not do something to, with or about him.

I realize the thread sort of 'evolved'....and forgive me....I was talking about the dogs as that's what was really concerning me. I derailed. My apologies.

And thanks for posting. I enjoy reading You, whether I always agree with You or not.....Your words stretch my brain.


Cheers
Aj

........................................

[Nat]

A few years back, I might have said very similar things to what Sachita has posted here. Honestly I had a lot more sympathy for animals than I did for a single human being. I had this idea that animals were defenseless and that humans were brutal toward them and unless there were people willing to stand up for animal rights, then there was no hope against senseless human-caused misery, death and extinction among animals. I still feel a bit of that in my innermost core, though my feelings have changed to accept that nature is brutal and people are part of nature.

At some point, I stopped crossing humans off the list when it came to "beings that matter" in my own heart and mind. I think it happened around the time I decided that I mattered - maybe about 8 years ago. I think it was the week when I realized that my vegetarian diet had left me so weak that I could no longer pick up cinder blocks and both my knees were always in pain. Or maybe it was the week after, when I ate meat again for the first time in a year and a half (?).

During my vegetarian years, I went to a lecture by Carol J Adams called "The Sexual Politics of Meat" which really emphasized how women and animals are equated in our culture. She gave lots of examples which can still be found on her website. I do believe she touched once or twice on the intersection of race, women and animals within advertising, but she didn't go into great depth.

Anyway, not sure where I'm going with this, so I am going to make a jump into my present. I understand now that "not seeing race" in an issue where many others do is most likely an act of willful ignorance on my part. I am allowed to participate in this type of ignorance because it is supported by the majority (white) culture. To acknowledge the race issues here would be to "commit a crime against the collective." To acknowledge that most of our hands are bloody when it comes to animal cruelty is another one of those crimes. When I say, "Crime against the collective," I mean in this sense:

"Any step in individuation is experienced as a crime against the collective because it challenges the individual's identification with some representative of the collective - whether it be a family, party, church or nation. At the same time, each step - since it is truly an inflated act - is not only accompanied by guilt but also runs the very real risk that one will get caught in an inflation that carries the consequences of a fall."

- Edward F Edinger

I heard this quote in the Jungian podcast yesterday during a discussion of what happened in Nazi Germany among the relatively well-educated German citizens that ended up supporting the Nazi movement. It's very dangerous to take advantage of the ignorance afforded us by our individual sets of privilege, because it allows us to be mindless and therefore oppressive toward others. It's hard to break the spoken or unspoken rules of the collective, but I think it's worth it.

[nowandthen]

A friend just sent me this on face book after I hit sent on here.
http://www.thenation.com/blog/157372...-animal-rights

I find my brain can not always express clearly what I am trying to convey. to be clear I was trying to express some of what the Professor here is speaking to and trying not to derail the conversation. I mostly likely failed in my articulation, but I agree that doing it wrong or badly teaches me more than when I do it right.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

So what level of pain would be enough? If he were turned over to the mercies of the mukhabarat in Egypt (the Egyptian secret police) and given, as I said before, a full and complete tour through the meaning of 'getting medieval on you' would that be enough? If it were mixed up a bit and he was given the very BEST in medieval torture married with the very BEST of Western medical intervention so that he would stay alive and--more to the point--conscious through every single excruciating moment and if this were allowed to continue for, say, a year. Would THAT be enough?

I keep hearing "I can't forgive him" or "it wasn't enough" well that means that somewhere there must be some line at which you would have to say "okay, enough". I'm curious what that line is.

In a less extreme vein, if he spent the rest of his days in prison would that be enough or would he need to spend the rest of his days in solitary? Or would you just prefer he were taken out and shot without delay?

You must have SOME punishment in mind, what is it?

Cheers
Aj

I would need to think about that otherwise my response may seem insane or it could excite a few here. lol- I'm kidding, sort of. I think it may involve torture which I know is insane and illegal but again it's emotional & stimulates the vigilante sadist in me.

Exploring my feelings about this I recalled an awful child abuse case in Missouri everyone has heard about Debra Luptak. It was considered the worse child abuse case in history. I know *this* isn't about that but if I use it as a comparison, and to me animal abuse is as bad a crime IMO, should her mother been allowed to serve time and then be let out and forgiven? This is the most extreme case and I view Vick's case to be extreme although not the worse.

I might not be making sense right now. I have some crazy ass dogs today. I might need to get back to this.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Okay, I'll ask you the SAME question that I've asked others: what level of punishment would be enough? Please let us know.

Cheers
Aj

I don't think I've ever broached the subject of his state-sanctioned punishment. I worked in systems parallel to the justice systems long enough to know that the manner in which "punishments" (in "correctional" institutions ) are doled out is pretty much a crock. And I don't doubt that him being a black man entered into his sentence. But I also don't doubt that him being a sports celebrity entered into it either!

I'll say it again: what I'm talking about is how *I* perceive Michael Vick's so-called "change". Does he really "get it"? What I've seen of his statements tells me that he doesn't. Toughy came on last night and said that she has seen things about Vicks' efforts that says otherwise. I sent her a rep saying I'd love to see those statements/efforts; that maybe I'd change my mind if I was more informed.

As I said in my last post: how we see this is a matter of values. I'm certainly not saying that the issue of inequality in the justice system is NOT an important aspect, only that my focus is on the magnitude of his crimes against animals. Sachita already said that she sees his crimes as equal to crimes involving child abuse. I agree. Furthermore, considering the absolutely astounding degree of the abuse AND the number of victims, I would think this issue would concern more than just those who are animal-lovers. His involvement in dog-fighting may stem from cultural elements, but systemic abuse of animals is a BIG red flag for many other pathologies.

Again, I'm not talking about societal sentencing. I have no doubt that many on this site would boycott a convicted child abuser, or sexual offender. I feel the same way about Vick.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Curious - Sincere question, for the folks who think that Michael Vick should not be forgiven for what he did. Are you pro-abortion or anti-abortion?
How do you feel about the death penalty?

This is an excellent question for all of us.

I believe it is not my place to forgive Michael Vick. That is between him and his G-d or not.

I am anti-death penalty. It is wrong morally and I think has been proven not to be much a deterrant. Also it is not applied justly in our system.

I am personally against abortion but support 100% a woman's sovereignty over her own body.

I am curious Medusa what people's answers would mean? What is the correct answer to these questions for those who will not forgive him?

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by June

From the article nowandthen posted a link to. So, how is this different? It was only two dogs? This fucker "rescued" two dogs, then dispatched them when they became an inconvenience. Look at his sentence. Look at his motives. Shall we forgo the justice system for him too? String him up? Make sure he never works again? Do you get the same visceral feelings? -- June

---------------------------------------------------------------



The POS pictured on the right is David Santuomo, 43, a Columbus, OH, firefighter who last December wanted to go on a cruise with his girlfriend but did want to pay for boarding for his two adopted dogs, Sloopy and Skeeter. So to save himself some money, he took his dogs into the basement, tie them to a pipe suspending their bodies and shot them both numerous times. He then dumped their bodies on the plastic he had already laid out, wrapped them up and dumped them in a trash bin behind the fire station where he worked. What makes this even sadder is that at least two neighbors had offered to watch the dogs while he was away.

This week, as part of a plea deal, Santuomo pleaded guilty to two counts of animal cruelty and one count of possessing a criminal tool a homemade silencer, all three misdemeanors. Franklin County Municipal Judge Harland H. Hale sentenced him to 90 days, to be served over 2 years, $4,500 in restitution, $150 fine, 200 hours of community service and he cannot possess any pets or firearms for 5 years. He also has to write a letter of apology to a firefighters magazine and to readers of The Dispatch newspaper. He has yet to face an internal disciplinary hearing with Fire Chief Ned Pettus Jr.

Felony charges were not pursued because there is no felony animal cruelty law in Ohio!!

After shooting and killing the two dogs he had adopted from the humane society, Santuomo was actually so proud of himself that he bragged to fellow firefighters. Thankfully, they were were not amused, but disgusted by his actions and his bragging.

“He later bragged about killing his pets to fellow firefighters, and he showed no remorse, even joking about it,” Assistant County Prosecutor Heather Robinson said. “Fellow firefighters were disgusted by what he did, and the Capital Area Humane Society was called to investigate.”

His lawyer calls his actions an isolated case and out of character but it seems Santuomo showed his character quite clearly when he gave courtroom reporters the finger.

And this waste of human life is still working as a firefighter!! Is this someone you would want to trust your life, or the lives of your precious furry family members to in the case of an emergency?? After pleading guilty he should have been removed from his position immediately! Fired!! And I’d also like to know what this business is of him being allowed to serve his measly 90 day sentence over a period of 2 years?? What makes him so special?

I wonder if that guy Tucker will call for his death.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by June

From the article nowandthen posted a link to. So, how is this different? It was only two dogs? This fucker "rescued" two dogs, then dispatched them when they became an inconvenience. Look at his sentence. Look at his motives. Shall we forgo the justice system for him too? String him up? Make sure he never works again? Do you get the same visceral feelings? -- June

An absolute POS indeed...and a perfect example of the inherent unfairness of our "justice" system. I also find it absolutely disturbing that there is no such thing as felony animal abuse in the state. So...no matter how disgusting, how massive, how horrible the abuse is...it's not a felony. That's outrageous...and a pretty horrific failure of the legislature.

Honestly, since there's no way to convict him of a felony...I'd love to see the Humane Society sue his ass off...so they can use those funds to help animals. Seems like his adoption of the animals probably included some kind of agreement to take responsible care of them...

[The_Lady_Snow]

Well June.

He's white, he gets a second chance.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Organicbutch

I wonder if that guy Tucker will call for his death.

Of course not...cuz...ummmmm....he's a firefighter.

[BullDog]

Why don't people put their passion and energy into all the women and children that white men abuse? Why not focus on the white male power system that makes people of color, women, children, animals and the environment instruments of their control? That's where the locus of the mis-use and abuse of power is.

If ALL people (not just white men) were treated with respect, dignity and as equals maybe collectively we would treat our animals better too. How can you expect animals to be treated well in such a fucked up world with such fucked up value systems? Get to the root of the problems. People abuse animals because they think they have the right to.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Organicbutch

I wonder if that guy Tucker will call for his death.

I wouldn't put the change in my pocket on Tucker calling for his death. Hell, I'm willing to bet that someone on FOX will excuse the man!

Cheers
Aj

[julieisafemme]

[QUOTE=BullDog;256233]Why don't people their passion and energy into all the women and children that white men abuse? Why not focus on the white male power system that makes people of color, women, children, animals and the environment instruments of their control? That's where the locus of the mis-use and abuse of power is.

If ALL people (not just white men) were treated with respect, dignity and as equals maybe collectively we would treat our animals better too. How can you expect animals to be treated well in such a fucked up world with such fucked up value systems? Get to the root of the problems. People abuse animals because they think they have the right to.[/QUOTE]


That's exactly what I have been saying BullDog. The root of the problem is the othering which allows us to view animals and other human beings as less than and therefore not worthy of decent treatment. I think others have been saying this too. So that is where my passion and energy is going.

Fighting for the rights of animals is not overlooking or not fighting for the rights of women and children. And the reverse is true as well. Anytime someone fights for the rights of queers, POC, women, animals, children and so on they are helping to fight for all of us. At least that is how I see it.

[BullDog]

When people get all upset over Michael Vick and have multiple threads about it, but there is no discussion of women being abused by multiple football players over and over and over, I think women are being ignored. It's been all over the news. Some of the biggest football stars have done it.

[suebee]

[quote=julieisafemme;256238]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Why don't people their passion and energy into all the women and children that white men abuse? Why not focus on the white male power system that makes people of color, women, children, animals and the environment instruments of their control? That's where the locus of the mis-use and abuse of power is.

If ALL people (not just white men) were treated with respect, dignity and as equals maybe collectively we would treat our animals better too. How can you expect animals to be treated well in such a fucked up world with such fucked up value systems? Get to the root of the problems. People abuse animals because they think they have the right to.[/QUOTE]


That's exactly what I have been saying BullDog. The root of the problem is the othering which allows us to view animals and other human beings as less than and therefore not worthy of decent treatment. I think others have been saying this too. So that is where my passion and energy is going.

Fighting for the rights of animals is not overlooking or not fighting for the rights of women and children. And the reverse is true as well. Anytime someone fights for the rights of queers, POC, women, animals, children and so on they are helping to fight for all of us. At least that is how I see it.

Each issue is a piece of the puzzle. If you leave out any one, the picture will be incomplete. None of us can take care of ALL of the issues, but if we focus on the ones that speak the loudest to us and respect the efforts of others who speak on the other issues, we might actually get somewhere as a society.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by BullDog

When people get all upset over Michael Vick and have multiple threads about it, but there is no discussion of women being abused by multiple football players over and over and over, I think women are being ignored. It's been all over the news. Some of the biggest football stars have done it.

Bully, I don't think anybody has said that women's issues are NOT important. Personally I think we as a species are capable of caring about more than one thing at a time. I honestly don't understand why you persist in saying that the Michael Vick story isn't important on a thread ABOUT Michael Vick!

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

When people get all upset over Michael Vick and have multiple threads about it, but there is no discussion of women being abused by multiple football players over and over and over, I think women are being ignored. It's been all over the news. Some of the biggest football stars have done it.

I am here to tell you I am NOT ignoring the abuse of women. Not now. Not ever. As a survivor of abuse it filters into and affects EVERYTHING I touch in this world. Ignoring the abuse of women is ignoring me and I do not do that anymore.

This thread is about animal abuse and what Obama said to a football coach. I am thinking about that and trying to link it to the bigger picture as I see it. That includes the abuse of human beings as I have mentioned in all of my posts.

I am tired of being lumped into some group who does not care about, advocate for or passionately fight the abuse of women.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am here to tell you I am NOT ignoring the abuse of women. Not now. Not ever. As a survivor of abuse it fliters into and affects EVERYTHING I touch in this world. Igonoring the abuse of women is ignoring me and I do not do that anymore.

This thread is about aninal abuse and what Obama said to a football coach. I am thinking about that and trying to link it to the bigger picture as I see it. That includes the abuse of human beings as I have mentioned in all of my posts.

I am tired of being lumped into some group who does not care about, advocate for or passionately fight the abuse of women.

I have no idea why you think I am lumping you in with anything.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I have no idea why you think I am lumping you in with anything.

Then who are you talking to? You do not quote posts of specific people. You paint these broad brush strokes and we are supposed to figure out if we fit or not??? I will NOT sit by and let any woman be abused. I will NOT sit by and let another woman or girl go through what I went through and still do this day! Now I am riled up and so I will take a break from this thread. I do appreciate your voice in defense of women. I wish you would use it to support us here instead of what feels like to me tearing us down.

[BullDog]

So we're not supposed to bring up things like racism and sexism? This thread was placed in the politics section and the OP said they weren't going to vote for Obama because of his remarks. Some of us are looking at this from a much broader picture than others.