"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization? - Page 15

Dragonfly · 12-26-2009, 10:08 PM

She uses the words butch and femme still. The community is not one she was exposed to as a young child. She uses terms for multiple genders, as the person IDed or not. The main thing I have been influenced by my daughter, son, and their circle of friends in several schools now. The youth are leaning a little away from terms like lesbian in exchange for queer. There are a large amount of bisexuals in this generation, in this area specifically.

I asked what she thought about it all and she said that her generation was raised differently. More open minded and less discrimination influenced them to be more accpeting, less needing to be classified as they identified their genders and sexual prefences. I see them struggle less and she answers isn't that what your generation wanted, to change things? They stereotype less than we adults "what" different sexual acts are prefered by whom.

SO I think Yeah... Isn't that what everyone was fighting for? A generation like the one I see blossoming in my rural area?

And they haven't tossed aside our ID's just because some of them think the word queer is good enough til you start dating and talk about the rest. TMI they say and ya know... I do like the word queer and how inclusive it feels to me personally.

friskyfemme · 12-27-2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by June

Amelia (Mel)

I loved that entire post and find it to be very true here in Portland as well. Younger folks do seem a lot more fluid in their identities and Gender presentations. I love that.

"Wasn't that what we were fighting for?"

Thank you for sharing that story.

I don't understand why people find it necessary to intellectualize their ids...I think some confusion at least for me (seems others too) is trying to understand: are people are coming from definition of sexual preference or personal id?

I have been around a lot of years. I id as 'stone femme'. This is my sexual preference. I am sexually attracted to stone butches...I am 'not' a no touch femme. I love 'no touch' butches. The guys that I date, love and partner with already understand where I am coming from.

Now...I am gonna age myself...when I came out...there were dykes and the woman who loved them and lesbians. The thing I realized early on ...I don't relate to 'female on female sex' - this is what lesbian means to me. So if I am talking, to a butch with a possible connection I will let them know 'I am not a lesbian'. The other thing that bugs me about the word lesbian is that it has been and is still used in negative context by hetros.

So maybe some of you consider me 'aniquated' but I have a clear ID and it works for me

.

Jett · 12-27-2009, 02:21 PM

I'm cross posting this from "The Re-Definition of Modern Butch" thread because I think it ties in here too:

Again, I can't see butch or femme becoming completely outdated, but... I can see us perpetuating the stereotypes and policing to the point that butch/femme wouldn't feel like a comfortable fit to many peeps. The subtle (and often blatant) up-holding of unrealistic ideals of butch and femme permeate the spaces around B-F and can make the perimeter appear minuscule and confining.

The vein of "real/more/better/high/true - us/them" that pervades the forums isn't any more welcoming and imo, it steals the true lifes blood of diversity and pushes a narrow standard of B-F that even the vast majority reading this wouldn't come close to living up to.

I've seen many B-F people wander into B-F spaces looking and log out permanently, they don't feel what they read... they don't fit the stereotypes, (or perhaps they just don't get the mind numbing "what's the most un-butch/femme thing you do". - jokes. *insert sarcastic look*).

Again, my thoughts are NOT about changing butch/femme... but changing the way we think and opening our minds to the diverse culture we already are and acknowledging this to become more inclusive.

I think it's more significant then ever that we check ourselves, before the age of the internet we didn't have the ability to leave such cut definitions... what we're writing, allowing and most importantly leaving unchallenged IS becoming our recorded legacy.

*actually a lot more fun in real life*
Metro

BullDog · 12-27-2009, 02:30 PM

To each their own as far as how you id and who you are attracted to. However, I'm a stone butch. I am a lesbian. I don't understand where people get these narrow ideas about lesbians or lesbian sex. The fact that some heterosexuals may use the word lesbian in a derogatory way certainly doesn't stop me from being proud to be a lesbian.

WILDCAT · 12-27-2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

To each their own as far as how you id and who you are attracted to. However, I'm a stone butch. I am a lesbian. I don't understand where people get these narrow ideas about lesbians or lesbian sex. The fact that some heterosexuals may use the word lesbian in a derogatory way certainly doesn't stop me from being proud to be a lesbian.

That IS one example of what homophobia is about. Many queers have internalized homophobia. I had it myself when I was growing up, briefly! We were conditioned to feel badly about ourselves - for a multitude of reasons: "unnatural is it", for religious beliefs, etc... (Thus this gets projected from us onto others as well.) This is one thing that really is sad to me - the hate that comes from our own community, and the pain of denial. This is one of the MAIN reasons why I proudly use the term lesbian. I have nothing but pride for myself, my orientation, my lifestyle, my choice for loving another. I've come too far and have been through too much for me to change for someone/ANYONE else. Uh, uh. It ain't gonna happen. And any partner I may be with will feel just as strongly about this, in love and support - or we would be on two entirely different pages. And I don't believe as capable, thus... of fully being our best together then. (Just my wooden nickels worth there!)

And I respect that others need different types of compatibility and understanding, for what best compliments their "togetherness" and growth as a couple (or poly, etc...) I really do believe there is someone for everyone... and thank goodness we are not all "clones" of each other. And the times "change". Yes. They must. But, much will remain the same too. That's just the way it is. For we will keep what it is we want...

Otherwise, I'm fine with all self definitions and the new descriptors, ID's, whatever - in fact mine has changed throughout time as well. I would just hope that folks do things for the right reasons. And that respect is maintained... Some of this discussion has been truly mind boggling indeed, but it's showing what apparently needs to be shown. If you're saying something is yucky, for example - I'd check that out, and think before submitting. Love is a sensitive thing for many of us.

For the record, there is nothing MORE beautiful to ME than the scent and the taste of a woman. Hope that doesn't gross anyone out. How could I possibly apologize for that - on a site called Butch/Femme Planet? I realize it is a bit personal [for me] to post that, but I am proud of this as well. I think it is a very lovely part of my attraction and love for women. Actually, it makes me crazy insane filled with the most powerful sense of longing that I have EVER FELT! So, that is that. For me. And I'm sure a few others... possibly might be able to relate to this.

May we continue to move on in forward progress. So many thanks to some wonderful posts here and to the moderation.

Sincerely -
WILDCAT

*Who truly hopes everyone did have a wonderful F'n holiday. Honest.

Beau · 12-27-2009, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WILDCAT

That IS one example of what homophobia is about. Many queers have internalized homophobia. I had it myself when I was growing up, briefly! We were conditioned to feel badly about ourselves - for a multitude of reasons: "unnatural is it", for religious beliefs, etc... (Thus this gets projected from us onto others as well.) This is one thing that really is sad to me - the hate that comes from our own community, and the pain of denial. This is one of the MAIN reasons why I proudly use the term lesbian. I have nothing but pride for myself, my orientation, my lifestyle, my choice for loving another. I've come too far and have been through too much for me to change for someone/ANYONE else. Uh, uh. It ain't gonna happen. And any partner I may be with will feel just as strongly about this, in love and support - or we would be on two entirely different pages. And I don't believe as capable, thus... of fully being our best together then. (Just my wooden nickels worth there!)

And I respect that others need different types of compatibility and understanding, for what best compliments their "togetherness" and growth as a couple (or poly, etc...) I really do believe there is someone for everyone... and thank goodness we are not all "clones" of each other. And the times "change". Yes. They must. But, much will remain the same too. That's just the way it is. For we will keep what it is we want...

Otherwise, I'm fine with all self definitions and the new descriptors, ID's, whatever - in fact mine has changed throughout time as well. I would just hope that folks do things for the right reasons. And that respect is maintained... Some of this discussion has been truly mind boggling indeed, but it's showing what apparently needs to be shown. If you're saying something is yucky, for example - I'd check that out, and think before submitting. Love is a sensitive thing for many of us.

For the record, there is nothing MORE beautiful to ME than the scent and the taste of a woman. Hope that doesn't gross anyone out. How could I possibly apologize for that - on a site called Butch/Femme Planet? I realize it is a bit personal [for me] to post that, but I am proud of this as well. I think it is a very lovely part of my attraction and love for women. Actually, it makes me crazy insane filled with the most powerful sense of longing that I have EVER FELT! So, that is that. For me. And I'm sure a few others... possibly might be able to relate to this.

May we continue to move on in forward progress. So many thanks to some wonderful posts here and to the moderation.

Sincerely -
WILDCAT

*Who truly hopes everyone did have a wonderful F'n holiday. Honest.

Your most eloquent words speak my truth and my experience as well.

Apocalipstic · 12-28-2009, 11:52 AM

I apologize, I have not read the last few pages, so if I am being redundant, just ignore me.

I have never on this or any other site made fun of what anyone else does in bed nor said it is gross, or disgusting. It freaks me out when people I consider friends think it is OK to say how I and other Lesbians have sex is disgusting.

I get that people some of you may have slept with might have said to you things that hurt, but it was not ME.

This is not a war where if someone kills a Palestinian, then the Palestinians feel the need to kill an Israeli and vice versa. This is, or should be, friends treating each other with respect.

Again, my apologies to the mods if I am repeating what has already been decided. Had to get it out of my system.

WILDCAT · 12-28-2009, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I apologize, I have not read the last few pages, so if I am being redundant, just ignore me.

I have never on this or any other site made fun of what anyone else does in bed nor said it is gross, or disgusting. It freaks me out when people I consider friends think it is OK to say how I and other Lesbians have sex is disgusting.

I get that people some of you may have slept with might have said to you things that hurt, but it was not ME.

This is not a war where if someone kills a Palestinian, then the Palestinians feel the need to kill an Israeli and vice versa. This is, or should be, friends treating each other with respect.

Again, my apologies to the mods if I am repeating what has already been decided. Had to get it out of my system.

Yeah, that is kinda old news here now Apocalipstic. (Just kiddin' ya!)

I was only posting this last time, about folks being sensitive before submitting because of this kind of thing - sure, and just gave the "example" I did. However, I was coming back primarily after reading that someone stated that they didn't like the word lesbian because heterosexuals use it so negatively. So, that was pointed out earlier in this thread, about "homophobia". I thought it was overlooked a bit then. I felt that was a good example to reiterate now again. We do things sometimes without even knowing it. Not that this is what the topic is all about here, no - of course not.

I think the bush has been beat here for now though. (No pun intended!! OK, maybe!!)

Choices for "terms" used are just that. I am proud of my choices right now. They will not fit everyone like they do me.

I was clearly hurt the other day, seeing how this thread was going. I stated as much. I'm glad folks moved through things otherwise. Grateful I am, actually. I really appreciate some wonderful and thoughtful - as well as very supportive posts. Proves we "can" move forward... yes?
__

So, how were YOUR holidays? I really get stressed out at family gatherings. And then to some of us, THIS is our family - can you just imagine! (I'm in a humorous mood here, thank goodness!! Please, do NOT be alarmed.)

Peace now! Be proud of who and what you are. We all should. I just wish for some consideration regarding some of these sensitive topics on a butch/femme site. I would never write about two males together and say anything negative either, or a heterosexual couple - any dynamic of folks together. Love is love. Sexual attraction is that... And we have a very interesting and diverse population here. There are no hard and fast "anything"...

So, I don't need to keep saying that I am fine with everyone else's self-perception or ID, or what-ever the heck. I'm just going to be sure mine is respected, well - I will keep trying anyway, should the need come up.

SMILE!

Have a great day.

WILDCAT

*Sorry for errors and hope this makes sense. I am sleep "mixed up" right now.

Apocalipstic · 12-28-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WILDCAT

Yeah, that is kinda old news here now Apocalipstic. (Just kiddin' ya!)

I was only posting this last time, about folks being sensitive before submitting because of this kind of thing - sure, and just gave the "example" I did. However, I was coming back primarily after reading that someone stated that they didn't like the word lesbian because heterosexuals use it so negatively. So, that was pointed out earlier in this thread, about "homophobia". I thought it was overlooked a bit then. I felt that was a good example to reiterate now again. We do things sometimes without even knowing it. Not that this is what the topic is all about here, no - of course not.

I think the bush has been beat here for now though. (No pun intended!! OK, maybe!!)

Choices for "terms" used are just that. I am proud of my choices right now. They will not fit everyone like they do me.

I was clearly hurt the other day, seeing how this thread was going. I stated as much. I'm glad folks moved through things otherwise. Grateful I am, actually. I really appreciate some wonderful and thoughtful - as well as very supportive posts. Proves we "can" move forward... yes?
__

So, how were YOUR holidays? I really get stressed out at family gatherings. And then to some of us, THIS is our family - can you just imagine! (I'm in a humorous mood here, thank goodness!! Please, do NOT be alarmed.)

Peace now! Be proud of who and what you are. We all should. I just wish for some consideration regarding some of these sensitive topics on a butch/femme site. I would never write about two males together and say anything negative either, or a heterosexual couple - any dynamic of folks together. Love is love. Sexual attraction is that... And we have a very interesting and diverse population here. There are no hard and fast "anything"...

So, I don't need to keep saying that I am fine with everyone else's self-perception or ID, or what-ever the heck. I'm just going to be sure mine is respected, well - I will keep trying anyway, should the need come up.

SMILE!

Have a great day.

WILDCAT

*Sorry for errors and hope this makes sense. I am sleep "mixed up" right now.

I am a wreck after the holidays too and soooo glad its almost over!

I really was not jumping off your fabulous post! Just saying what I had percolating (sp?) for days.

I agree completely love is love and I am so glad there is so much of it here! love, love loveeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I hope you get caught up on your rest and over the holidays quickly!

Jen

Toughy · 12-28-2009, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by friskyfemme

I don't understand why people find it necessary to intellectualize their ids...I think some confusion at least for me (seems others too) is trying to understand: are people are coming from definition of sexual preference or personal id?

I have been around a lot of years. I id as 'stone femme'. This is my sexual preference. I am sexually attracted to stone butches...I am 'not' a no touch femme. I love 'no touch' butches. The guys that I date, love and partner with already understand where I am coming from.

Now...I am gonna age myself...when I came out...there were dykes and the woman who loved them and lesbians. The thing I realized early on ...I don't relate to 'female on female sex' - this is what lesbian means to me. So if I am talking, to a butch with a possible connection I will let them know 'I am not a lesbian'. The other thing that bugs me about the word lesbian is that it has been and is still used in negative context by hetros.

So maybe some of you consider me 'aniquated' but I have a clear ID and it works for me

.

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

What is 'female on female sex'? What is 'lesbian sex'?

If lesbian is defined entirely by sex act(s), is that not just a way to reduce lesbians to only a sex act? I mean that's what the het world does to all us queers..........we are defined by sexual act(s) only..........even though every sexual proclivity you can think of is done (can be done) by most folks regardless of gender identity or biological sex.

I know I am far more than my sexual and erotic proclivities .....and those proclivities are very fluid and always dependent on the dynamic between me and the femme I am with.....

Gemme · 12-28-2009, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toughy

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

.....

I have no answers for your other questions of frisky, but I actually know what she meant by this. She's a Stone Femme that partners with Stone Butches. Her partners have the 'no touch' (or no feminizing touching) sexual boundaries that she is fine with and respects. She does not have those same 'no touch' boundaries. She likes to be touched by her partners, especially in a feminizing way.

The rest I am actually interested in hearing the answers to.

NotAnAverageGuy · 12-28-2009, 07:38 PM

What if we didn't analyze each others ID's?

Jett · 12-28-2009, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toughy

I'm so confused by this post....truly confused.

You are not a 'no touch' femme and you only date 'no touch' butches??? How does that work?

What is 'female on female sex'? What is 'lesbian sex'?

If lesbian is defined entirely by sex act(s), is that not just a way to reduce lesbians to only a sex act? I mean that's what the het world does to all us queers..........we are defined by sexual act(s) only..........even though every sexual proclivity you can think of is done (can be done) by most folks regardless of gender identity or biological sex.

I know I am far more than my sexual and erotic proclivities .....and those proclivities are very fluid and always dependent on the dynamic between me and the femme I am with.....

I've tried to figure out what people mean by "lesbian sex" and address it here (in other posts) several times.... good luck.

Metro
*who's pretty damn sure lesbians all have different likes and dislikes in the bedroom just like everybody else*
.

Gemme · 12-28-2009, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

What if we didn't analyze each others ID's?

I don't think the attempt is to analyze (as in break down) anyone's ID, but to understand and learn from one another's IDs. If we can't learn from one another, then how in heck can we try to help those outside of our community understand or accept us?

BullDog · 12-28-2009, 07:57 PM

I am a Stone Butch. Feminizing touch does not factor in at all for me. I am a masculine female (butch). The way someone touches me is not going to make me feel more or less masculine or feminine. I am a Stone Butch Lesbian because that is how I am wired and what feels good to me and what gives me pleasure. I have my own boundaries, likes and dislikes when it comes to sex just like everyone else. There aren't any particular sex acts that qualify or disqualify me to be a lesbian. Being a Stone Butch doesn't disqualify me to be a lesbian either.

I am quite confused about the female on female sex. Unless you are transitioned or consider yourself to have a male body, don't you have a female body? Don't most of us female bodied people have sex with other female bodied people? This is a Lesbian/Queer website and community, right?

Dragonfly · 12-28-2009, 08:04 PM

I dont know if anyone has stated an opinion on this yet or not. I read them all as they progressed.... but now my mind is cloudy. I just wanted to say that the BIG part of homophobia that I witness in my po dunk area is the sexual acts part of it not the who you love part. Some people gets so phobic and hateful by verbally commenting on their imagined homosexual sex acts-- that arent even accurate or stereotypically correct.... I wanna say just stop trying to guess cause you have no clue what I do in bed less you bed me.

SO can I just say maybe again if someone already has...

A gender ID is NOT a explanation of what you like sexually. Unless you say it is for you personally.... then thats ok with me as long as its not speaking for ALL anybodys IDing like you do...

Wondering...
If we can separate gender ID from sexual likes/dislikes completely.... the way my kids' generation does without thinking maybe everyone will realize all over the world just what that means. Maybe it would be un thought of to wonder if terms will be cast aside if that were to happen globally... separate gender 100% from sexuality....

If we can change our culture's "definitions" as I have seen through the years living within hetero culture and watching it change as I went unnoticed as queer... why cant we do that too.... separate them totally?

Do I have to feel I am lesbian just because I and my sexual partners so far have IDed as a female gender? Maybe if the whole world hears lesbian in that way... but I dont see why that HAS to stay like that forever if that is the "way it is".

And if I feel I ID as lesbian but am drawn to BF dynamics... does that mean I like to hide my homosexuality within the masculinity of butches.... as if I am pretending to be hetero without actually being one? Who cares.... if you think that of me anyway...

I dont view BF dynamics as male genders and female genders. That is why I like that people state it and dont act like we should all know by one term of their ID. Thats why I like two ply ID's and the idea of new terms added.

** sorry still A little tender from the card pullers of my intro to the community...

Btw, NO ONE has ever accepted me as one of "their team" from the hets and or the homes. Whomever mentioned bisexuals as the new bashed ID I think has it right for a certain generation... maybe not my kids' though....

Until BF community I was not enough of anything to "qualify" because its always all about the sex and how or who you do what with.

Thats why I like to think gender does not = sexuality.

NotAnAverageGuy · 12-28-2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gemme

I don't think the attempt is to analyze (as in break down) anyone's ID, but to understand and learn from one another's IDs. If we can't learn from one another, then how in heck can we try to help those outside of our community understand or accept us?

I agree about learning but the bickering is what I see as a problem. I see bickering over words that define each and everyone of us, to me that is disturbing.

Gemme · 12-28-2009, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

I agree about learning but the bickering is what I see as a problem. I see bickering over words that define each and everyone of us, to me that is disturbing.

*nods*

It is difficult to see past the clashing of terms, I admit. I do feel it's necessary to do so, so that there won't be friction between the members of our community.

It is oftentimes a slow, bumpy road though.

Cyclopea · 12-28-2009, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am a Stone Butch. Feminizing touch does not factor in at all for me. I am a masculine female (butch). The way someone touches me is not going to make me feel more or less masculine or feminine. I am a Stone Butch Lesbian because that is how I am wired and what feels good to me and what gives me pleasure. I have my own boundaries, likes and dislikes when it comes to sex just like everyone else. There aren't any particular sex acts that qualify or disqualify me to be a lesbian. Being a Stone Butch doesn't disqualify me to be a lesbian either.

I am quite confused about the female on female sex. Unless you are transitioned or consider yourself to have a male body, don't you have a female body? Don't most of us female bodied people have sex with other female bodied people? This is a Lesbian/Queer website and community, right?

I don't know what "feminizing touch" is either.

Are there forms of touch that magically confer masculinity or femininity on the recipient?
What would be a form of masculinizing touch or feminizing touch?
Inquiring minds want to know!

Dragonfly · 12-28-2009, 08:21 PM

Feminizing Touch
Does that mean "in a way that reminds you that you are female born"? I mean does that describe the way your "bits" are stimulated? To use Selenay's term for them I once saw and stole from her recently cause its cute.

I do see a difference in technique... and have made love differently to a man than to a woman. See what I mean by terms that would be less confusing? If you mean "in a way that would make ANYONE feel like the female parts are being stimulated and not like a males parts are being stimulated" THAT would be too stereotyping for me....

Someone once said when I make love to a male IDed person I may touch their parts... but I dont touch them in the same way as I would or have touched females. I thought that was easy to understand without graphic details.

*** For graphic details see my next post under my erotica lol

12-26-2009, 10:08 PM	#281
Dragonfly Member How Do You Identify?: Queersexual Female Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: smiling real big Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: My Own House Illinois Posts: 330 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 871 Thanked 346 Times in 151 Posts Rep Power: 645438	I asked my Teenage Daughter She uses the words butch and femme still. The community is not one she was exposed to as a young child. She uses terms for multiple genders, as the person IDed or not. The main thing I have been influenced by my daughter, son, and their circle of friends in several schools now. The youth are leaning a little away from terms like lesbian in exchange for queer. There are a large amount of bisexuals in this generation, in this area specifically. I asked what she thought about it all and she said that her generation was raised differently. More open minded and less discrimination influenced them to be more accpeting, less needing to be classified as they identified their genders and sexual prefences. I see them struggle less and she answers isn't that what your generation wanted, to change things? They stereotype less than we adults "what" different sexual acts are prefered by whom. SO I think Yeah... Isn't that what everyone was fighting for? A generation like the one I see blossoming in my rural area? And they haven't tossed aside our ID's just because some of them think the word queer is good enough til you start dating and talk about the rest. TMI they say and ya know... I do like the word queer and how inclusive it feels to me personally. __________________ Stay Gold.

12-27-2009, 02:21 PM	#283
Jett Member How Do You Identify?: Hardcore bullheaded grown-ass Tomboy Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: she loves my shaggy hair Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The backroom of a night cafe plotting world domination Posts: 1,028 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,054 Thanked 3,299 Times in 568 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	I'm cross posting this from "The Re-Definition of Modern Butch" thread because I think it ties in here too: Again, I can't see butch or femme becoming completely outdated, but... I can see us perpetuating the stereotypes and policing to the point that butch/femme wouldn't feel like a comfortable fit to many peeps. The subtle (and often blatant) up-holding of unrealistic ideals of butch and femme permeate the spaces around B-F and can make the perimeter appear minuscule and confining. The vein of "real/more/better/high/true - us/them" that pervades the forums isn't any more welcoming and imo, it steals the true lifes blood of diversity and pushes a narrow standard of B-F that even the vast majority reading this wouldn't come close to living up to. I've seen many B-F people wander into B-F spaces looking and log out permanently, they don't feel what they read... they don't fit the stereotypes, (or perhaps they just don't get the mind numbing "what's the most un-butch/femme thing you do". - jokes. insert sarcastic look). Again, my thoughts are NOT about changing butch/femme... but changing the way we think and opening our minds to the diverse culture we already are and acknowledging this to become more inclusive. I think it's more significant then ever that we check ourselves, before the age of the internet we didn't have the ability to leave such cut definitions... what we're writing, allowing and most importantly leaving unchallenged IS becoming our recorded legacy. actually a lot more fun in real life Metro __________________ .......... In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer. ~Albert Camus Last edited by Jett; 12-27-2009 at 02:24 PM.

12-27-2009, 02:30 PM	#284
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,666 Times in 4,464 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	To each their own as far as how you id and who you are attracted to. However, I'm a stone butch. I am a lesbian. I don't understand where people get these narrow ideas about lesbians or lesbian sex. The fact that some heterosexuals may use the word lesbian in a derogatory way certainly doesn't stop me from being proud to be a lesbian. __________________ Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke

12-28-2009, 11:52 AM	#287
Apocalipstic Pink Confection How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her, Ma'am Relationship Status: Dating Myself Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Nashville Posts: 4,266 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 17,195 Thanked 11,362 Times in 2,838 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	I apologize, I have not read the last few pages, so if I am being redundant, just ignore me. I have never on this or any other site made fun of what anyone else does in bed nor said it is gross, or disgusting. It freaks me out when people I consider friends think it is OK to say how I and other Lesbians have sex is disgusting. I get that people some of you may have slept with might have said to you things that hurt, but it was not ME. This is not a war where if someone kills a Palestinian, then the Palestinians feel the need to kill an Israeli and vice versa. This is, or should be, friends treating each other with respect. Again, my apologies to the mods if I am repeating what has already been decided. Had to get it out of my system. __________________

12-28-2009, 07:57 PM	#295
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,666 Times in 4,464 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	I am a Stone Butch. Feminizing touch does not factor in at all for me. I am a masculine female (butch). The way someone touches me is not going to make me feel more or less masculine or feminine. I am a Stone Butch Lesbian because that is how I am wired and what feels good to me and what gives me pleasure. I have my own boundaries, likes and dislikes when it comes to sex just like everyone else. There aren't any particular sex acts that qualify or disqualify me to be a lesbian. Being a Stone Butch doesn't disqualify me to be a lesbian either. I am quite confused about the female on female sex. Unless you are transitioned or consider yourself to have a male body, don't you have a female body? Don't most of us female bodied people have sex with other female bodied people? This is a Lesbian/Queer website and community, right? __________________ Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke

12-28-2009, 07:38 PM	#292
NotAnAverageGuy Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Trans Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,723 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 109 Thanked 282 Times in 178 Posts Rep Power: 0	What if we didn't analyze each others ID's?

12-28-2009, 08:04 PM	#296
Dragonfly Member How Do You Identify?: Queersexual Female Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: smiling real big Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: My Own House Illinois Posts: 330 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 871 Thanked 346 Times in 151 Posts Rep Power: 645438	Gender ID's and Sexual Id's affecting the terms Butch and Femme I dont know if anyone has stated an opinion on this yet or not. I read them all as they progressed.... but now my mind is cloudy. I just wanted to say that the BIG part of homophobia that I witness in my po dunk area is the sexual acts part of it not the who you love part. Some people gets so phobic and hateful by verbally commenting on their imagined homosexual sex acts-- that arent even accurate or stereotypically correct.... I wanna say just stop trying to guess cause you have no clue what I do in bed less you bed me. SO can I just say maybe again if someone already has... A gender ID is NOT a explanation of what you like sexually. Unless you say it is for you personally.... then thats ok with me as long as its not speaking for ALL anybodys IDing like you do... Wondering... If we can separate gender ID from sexual likes/dislikes completely.... the way my kids' generation does without thinking maybe everyone will realize all over the world just what that means. Maybe it would be un thought of to wonder if terms will be cast aside if that were to happen globally... separate gender 100% from sexuality.... If we can change our culture's "definitions" as I have seen through the years living within hetero culture and watching it change as I went unnoticed as queer... why cant we do that too.... separate them totally? Do I have to feel I am lesbian just because I and my sexual partners so far have IDed as a female gender? Maybe if the whole world hears lesbian in that way... but I dont see why that HAS to stay like that forever if that is the "way it is". And if I feel I ID as lesbian but am drawn to BF dynamics... does that mean I like to hide my homosexuality within the masculinity of butches.... as if I am pretending to be hetero without actually being one? Who cares.... if you think that of me anyway... I dont view BF dynamics as male genders and female genders. That is why I like that people state it and dont act like we should all know by one term of their ID. Thats why I like two ply ID's and the idea of new terms added. ** sorry still A little tender from the card pullers of my intro to the community... Btw, NO ONE has ever accepted me as one of "their team" from the hets and or the homes. Whomever mentioned bisexuals as the new bashed ID I think has it right for a certain generation... maybe not my kids' though.... Until BF community I was not enough of anything to "qualify" because its always all about the sex and how or who you do what with. Thats why I like to think gender does not = sexuality. __________________ Stay Gold.

12-28-2009, 08:21 PM	#300
Dragonfly Member How Do You Identify?: Queersexual Female Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: smiling real big Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: My Own House Illinois Posts: 330 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 871 Thanked 346 Times in 151 Posts Rep Power: 645438	Feminizing Touch Feminizing Touch Does that mean "in a way that reminds you that you are female born"? I mean does that describe the way your "bits" are stimulated? To use Selenay's term for them I once saw and stole from her recently cause its cute. I do see a difference in technique... and have made love differently to a man than to a woman. See what I mean by terms that would be less confusing? If you mean "in a way that would make ANYONE feel like the female parts are being stimulated and not like a males parts are being stimulated" THAT would be too stereotyping for me.... Someone once said when I make love to a male IDed person I may touch their parts... but I dont touch them in the same way as I would or have touched females. I thought that was easy to understand without graphic details. *** For graphic details see my next post under my erotica lol __________________ Stay Gold.