Ode to Butches

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Hello Hudson,

As I posted, there are slight differences. I could post them, but what would be the point here in this thread? The differences are enough to differentiate the two. Whether one is more welcome than the other is strictly, in my opinion (for myself), where the 'ode' originates from. That is the privilege of the person receiving the 'ode' as to whether or not it is welcomed. We are each different in what we consider flattering or insulting.

This seems important to you and, if you would be open to it, I would gladly PM you the differences of the 'ode's.

Hi Kosmo,

The slight variations in the odes themselves are unimportant to me. What is curious to me is the homophobia and transphobia (as some gay or bi trans men are attracted to butches) inherent within. I totally get butches having zero interest in the admiration/attraction of a straight man (who doesn't see them as masculine beings - hello). For me personally, I have no attraction to anyone masculine - males, females, butches, etc but I am not repulsed or threatened by their admiration/attraction of and to me. As long as they see me as the guy I am, I find it validating. If they were to see me differently and insist that I'm other than who I say I am, then that would be unwanted. Again, it's not important to me, I have no agenda - it's just an observation.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Hudson

Hi Kosmo,

The slight variations in the odes themselves are unimportant to me. What is curious to me is the homophobia and transphobia (as some gay or bi trans men are attracted to butches) inherent within. I totally get butches having zero interest in the admiration/attraction of a straight man (who doesn't see them as masculine beings - hello). For me personally, I have no attraction to anyone masculine - males, females, butches, etc but I am not repulsed or threatened by their admiration/attraction of and to me. As long as they see me as the guy I am, I find it validating. If they were to see me differently and insist that I'm other than who I say I am, then that would be unwanted. Again, it's not important to me, I have no agenda - it's just an observation.

Hi ya, Hudson

I thought when you and I PM'd about 'the ode, that of which we will not speak' (here is where you chuckle), that I gave you an example that you understood. I don't know about other butches, but the thought of being penetrated and fucked, and pleasured by a man (really? Pleasured?) is in no way validating to me, as a Butch. If that paints me as male-phobic? Then baby, I'll paint my whole f-n' body.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Hi ya, Hudson

I thought when you and I PM'd about 'the ode, that of which we will not speak' (here is where you chuckle), that I gave you an example that you understood. I don't know about other butches, but the thought of being penetrated and fucked, and pleasured by a man (really? Pleasured?) is in no way validating to me, as a Butch. If that paints me as male-phobic? Then baby, I'll paint by whole f-n' body.

you don't seem to be in the market for that sort of thing, regardless.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by apretty

you don't seem to be in the market for that sort of thing, regardless.

Hi apretty,

You are correct. I am not in the market and that is why I wouldn't have responded to the ad, but when the link was posted in the thread it was posted in, then I have the right to post a response. And while I don't identify strictly as female/feminine or male/masculine identified, I do have a voice and I think I will start using it.

[Waldo]

For fucks sake.

Am I reading this right? That we (whether butch, femme or trans) aren't supposed to consider this a valid communication because it originated from a bio man/male?

If that logic is to be followed then we should probably shut down or heavily moderate the "Tap It" thread so that no celebrity who isn't receptive to the advances of a butch, femme, trans or genderqueer person is discussed.

One of the unifying aspects of this site is sexuality. And this certainly falls into that category. Granted, it's not something we discuss often, but it fits.

It's okay that it's not your cuppa tea, but it might be right up the alley of those who want to expand their thoughts about what attracts one person to another.

For me personally it always amuses/confuses me when a guy finds me attractive, but I'm always flattered. And showing appreciation for my physical appearance isn't always about objectification.

/soapbox

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Waldo

For fucks sake.

Am I reading this right? That we (whether butch, femme or trans) aren't supposed to consider this a valid communication because it originated from a bio man/male?

If that logic is to be followed then we should probably shut down or heavily moderate the "Tap It" thread so that no celebrity who isn't receptive to the advances of a butch, femme, trans or genderqueer person is discussed.

One of the unifying aspects of this site is sexuality. And this certainly falls into that category. Granted, it's not something we discuss often, but it fits.

It's okay that it's not your cuppa tea, but it might be right up the alley of those who want to expand their thoughts about what attracts one person to another.

For me personally it always amuses/confuses me when a guy finds me attractive, but I'm always flattered. And showing appreciation for my physical appearance isn't always about objectification.

/soapbox

I don't think anyone said la-la's ode was written by a man.
So, for fuck's sake, no- you are not reading this right!

They are talking about some straight guy's craigslist ad that most of us haven't read. (And don't really care to).
Clear as mud?

[Waldo]

That's what I get for skimming.

For fucks sake.

(it's the phrase of the day)

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Waldo

For fucks sake.

Am I reading this right? That we (whether butch, femme or trans) aren't supposed to consider this a valid communication because it originated from a bio man/male?

If that logic is to be followed then we should probably shut down or heavily moderate the "Tap It" thread so that no celebrity who isn't receptive to the advances of a butch, femme, trans or genderqueer person is discussed.

One of the unifying aspects of this site is sexuality. And this certainly falls into that category. Granted, it's not something we discuss often, but it fits.

It's okay that it's not your cuppa tea, but it might be right up the alley of those who want to expand their thoughts about what attracts one person to another.

For me personally it always amuses/confuses me when a guy finds me attractive, but I'm always flattered. And showing appreciation for my physical appearance isn't always about objectification.

/soapbox

It's very valid. As valid as the responses that the original post (with the ad) received. For a number of people, it was not their cup of tea. Why would that be the issue here? Because it originated from a bio male? (assumed). They are not allowed to voice displeasure? It goes both ways. If there were any butches in that thread that had a positive response, they could have done so. And I believe one did respond in a positive manner. So let's not make this a hetero-homo sexual issue.

I could easily create and post an ode to bio men/transmen that says equally the same things, e.g., appreciating how I love that they could be pleasured by my cock and not feel any less male/manly. I would expect both negative and positive responses without labeling anyone with a phobia.

I could PM you the ad and would be interested in your response. I have had bio men at work tell me I look sharp for that particular day and I appreciate it. If one told me I have a great ass, not so much. But that's just me.

I do happen to have a great ass (so says my girl )

[BullDog]

I agree with Outlaw, we get to decide what we find complimentary or objectifying and what we are interested in talking about. If a man wants to pay me a compliment like hey nice haircut- sure that's nice. A long ode that waxes poetic- I am just simply not interested. Anyway I think it was lifted from somewhere. My apologies if they guy spent hours composing it for his ad. His "ode" might not be exactly the same as the one posted in this thread. Who's on first, lol.

What has bothered me was the continued insistence in 2 threads that butch women discuss it- coming from someone who doesn't id as a butch woman- and when it didn't appear anyone was interested in discussing it we are called transphobic and homophobic. The man posting the ad never said he was trans and I don't get where homophobia would come into play at all- he's male, we're female.

Like Kosmo said, if anyone does want to discuss it they are free to do so.

[Outlaw]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

I personally do not see anything wrong with a man posting an ode to a butch woman.

I have lots of bio male friends and trans friends who love butch women, as friends or more. I think if someone or a class of people are being complimented, take it as a compliment and move on in life, it just shows that y'all are appreciated.

I think "someone or a class of people" get to decide individually and collectively what is complimentary and what is not.

Speaking only for myself and my butchness... I get to choose individually... if and by whom... I allow my butchness to be objectified by...

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by Outlaw

I think "someone or a class of people" get to decide individually and collectively what is complimentary and what is not.

Speaking only for myself and my butchness... I get to choose individually... if and by whom... I allow my butchness to be objectified by...

I understand but my point is who doesn't like to know they are appreciated?