Ode to Butches

[Soon]

Originally Posted by FeminineAllure

The smell of your sweat and testosterone from working on my car for me. .

FeminineAllure,

I know your Ode is heartfelt, and I am sure many butches appreciate it.

I am not writing this now to hurt your feelings or attack you, but I found this line too interesting and (after thinking about it for quite some time!) feel compelled to ask a question regarding it.

Why would a butch have any more scent of testosterone than I as a femme?

Even with an endrocine disorder (such as PCOS), where there may be a hormonal imbalance, I don't think one would be able to detect its scent. I know all women have some measure of testosterone in their systems, but, certainly for most, it is not the dominating one.

Basically, wouldn't a butch have the same basic scent or smell (excluding other factors such as cologne etc.) than you or I--as we are both female?


I just found it sort of odd that butches would be equated with the smell of testosterone.
Maybe others wish to weigh in as well.

I don't mean to nitpick, but my eye caught the word *testosterone*, and I was like oh wow...b/c I never noticed a distinct smell of testosterone on butches and thought I would ask about it.

[BullDog]

Nobody's panicked Bob. A trans man posted a link to a Craigslist ad allegedly writtten by a man in a Female Identified Butch thread and asked us what we thought. Several butches answered. Now here we are in another thread talking about again.

Personally my life doesn't revolve around men. I don't care if they are attracted to me or what they think of my masculinity. I'm neither flattered nor validated.

By the way, what are the chances of someone genuinely waxing poetic about Butch Women on either Yahoo Answers or Craigslist? Gentle readers I believe the genuine author of our beloved Ode we must affectionately refer to as Anon. The others are most likely cut and paste jobs with a few edits.

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Nobody's panicked Bob. A trans man posted a link to a Craigslist ad allegedly writtten by a man in a Female Identified Butch thread and asked us what we thought. Several butches answered. Now here we are in another thread talking about again.

Personally my life doesn't revolve around men. I don't care if they are attracted to me or what they think of my masculinity. I'm neither flattered nor validated.

By the way, what are the chances of someone genuinely waxing poetic about Butch Women on either Yahoo Answers or Craigslist? Gentle readers I believe the genuine author of our beloved Ode we must affectionately refer to as Anon. The others are most likely cut and paste jobs with a few edits.

Well then talk about something else?

And just because a piece of text is found on Yahoo Answers or craigslist does not mean it originated there, as is evidenced by their appearance here, on this site.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Hudson

Well then talk about something else?

And just because a piece of text is found on Yahoo Answers or craigslist does not mean it originated there, as is evidenced by their appearance here, on this site.

We agree!!!

[apretty]

i sense panic.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by apretty

i sense panic.

I feel annoyed.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I feel annoyed.

by the threat of a male among us? by sexuality that differs from your own?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by apretty

by the threat of a male among us? by sexuality that differs from your own?

No by people telling butch women how we feel and trying to dictate what we talk about.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by BullDog

No by people telling butch women how we feel and trying to dictate what we talk about.

(from signature: "The moment we begin to fear the opinions of others and hesitate to tell the truth that is in us...."

I'm amused.

[WILDCAT]

I'm wondering if and how antagonistic CRAP serves any good purposes here.

I'm thinking some folks are mean spirited in this walk of life.

Bully, unbelievable, eh?

I wish folks would be a bit more respectful here. Seriously. Don't we get enough crap out in the "real" world? And the defensiveness is really not warranted, but... folks do show their "hand of sorts" by remaining or continuing on such a path.

NOT CLEAR here? Well, just take what you can use - and leave the rest then. I'm not Judge Judy...

Folks are seemingly NOT writing very kindly here. We generally know where our own hearts are, yes?
__

I think I'm in a loving space myself, but not feeling too much of it here. So, I'm going to run my errands now. SMILE

And I'm not in any defending myself space, for certain. (And I don't think it's nice really of anyone to write or infer such things. Unless you want to quote maybe specific (?)

I'm certainly not feeling "panicked"... (?)
__

There is a difference from being hurt, annoyed, defensive, defendING, rude, disrespectful, instigative and truly genuine/concerned/civil/productive... CONstructive, etc. And on and on.

Plug it in where it fits... if you wish. I have, for myself and I'm quite clear with myself where I am at right now. (Realizing everyone's perceptions and realities are their own of course.)

Have to good day all respectful, kind and considerate folks. Anyone confused, good luck! (Little hug here from me!!)

WC


*I'm starting to think I'm on the wrong site here. Anyone else? Have the aliens landed?

ETA: Oh, much has been written since I began this. Hope it still fits in with the theme in any helpful or interesting way... Have a good day now, ya'll! Really.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I feel annoyed.

Oh hey, me too!

I feel annoyed that this thread is posted in a forum subtitled "For all things butch," but then provides a limited definition of a single subset of butch.

I feel annoyed at the way the same handful of butches seem to feel the need to moderate all conversations about butch from their own perspective of what butch is/is not.

I feel annoyed that the most interesting conversations spawned by this otherwise clichéd "ode" have devolved into yet another battle in the on-going gender war, instead of pursuit of those avenues of discourse.

I feel annoyed that the same person, Wildcat, continues to rant about antagonists, derailing, and the agendas of others while clearly doing exactly the same thing with those kinds of posts. Word: When people disagree with you, or come at a thing from a different place they aren't necessarily antagonizing - they're stating their opinion, speaking from their experience, which is no less valid than yours or that of those who think just like you. Maybe you are full of peace, love and lentils, but it ain't necessarily coming across in your words and effusive punctuation.

What I think *feels* most annoying, is that so much energy is spent on this site talking about our differences and inability to understand one another, that it's a wonder to me that we need this, or any other, site at all in order to engage in "community." What all this feels like to me is an elbowing for space, jockeying for territory and a whole lot of denial.

Kosmo, you mention sabotage - I might want to agree with you, as it seems the same few do, in fact, reappear in thread after thread, attempting to speak for butch. Here's news, they don't own butch, and they sure as hell don't speak for all that is butch.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Oh hey, me too!

I feel annoyed that this thread is posted in a forum subtitled "For all things butch," but then provides a limited definition of a single subset of butch.

I feel annoyed at the way the same handful of butches seem to feel the need to moderate all conversations about butch from their own perspective of what butch is/is not.

I feel annoyed that the most interesting conversations spawned by this otherwise clichéd "ode" have devolved into yet another battle in the on-going gender war, instead of pursuit of those avenues of discourse.

I feel annoyed that the same person, Wildcat, continues to rant about antagonists, derailing, and the agendas of others while clearly doing exactly the same thing with those kinds of posts. Word: When people disagree with you, or come at a thing from a different place they aren't necessarily antagonizing - they're stating their opinion, speaking from their experience, which is no less valid than yours or that of those who think just like you. Maybe you are full of peace, love and lentils, but it ain't necessarily coming across in your words and effusive punctuation.

What I think *feels* most annoying, is that so much energy is spent on this site talking about our differences and inability to understand one another, that it's a wonder to me that we need this, or any other, site at all in order to engage in "community." What all this feels like to me is an elbowing for space, jockeying for territory and a whole lot of denial.

Kosmo, you mention sabotage - I might want to agree with you, as it seems the same few do, in fact, reappear in thread after thread, attempting to speak for butch. Here's news, they don't own butch, and they sure as hell don't speak for all that is butch.

The Ode was allegedly penned to Butch Women, but as a butch of a different stripe if you appreciate it, by all means please let us know how you feel.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

The Ode was allegedly penned to Butch Women, but as a butch of a different stripe if you appreciate it, by all means please let us know how you feel.

I've only seen so obvious an elitism expressed around our (denied) "hierarchies" whenever femmes pat-pat and welcome transwomen into their spaces with that little discomfort they try to hide behind their eyes and under their voices.

I'm sure someone was just "taking up too much space."

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

The Ode was allegedly penned to Butch Women, but as a butch of a different stripe if you appreciate it, by all means please let us know how you feel.

Right, see my first point. And thanks for giving me the ok to post here, I wasn't aware your approval was necessary, though you certainly spend a lot of time moderating the direction of the conversation.

I think my third point (damn, should have used bullets) makes it clear what I think of the OP when I called it "clichéd." I agree with Kim, "it was full of stereotypes, and certainly didn't accurately describe any butch that I've ever known."

What I do find interesting is the avenue of dialog (albeit one some people have attempted to divert) with regard to butches and male attraction. Hell yeah - I find that shit fascinating!

I am intrigued by male attraction to butches, gay men, sure, but what I find most compelling is heterosexual male sexual attraction to butch. On at least one level, it interests me for the ways in which it validates the argument for sexuality existing on a continuum. We're talking about a "straight" man sexually attracted to another masculine presence. Not gay, but gay? I want to dissect that, put it under a microscope and take pictures. Sure, that's not what the OP was talking about, but the dialog has attempted to take us there, and I for one don't understand all the defensiveness surrounding it.

Heterosexual men have hit on me in the past, and it doesn't make me question my own masculinity or sexuality - I never feel threatened in that way - but it sure as shootin' makes me question theirs. I don't judge them, but I'm decidedly curious and have yet to find a man with whom I could have that conversation.

Originally Posted by evolveme

I'm sure someone was just "taking up too much space."

So just elbow them out!

[WILDCAT]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Oh hey, me too!

I feel annoyed that this thread is posted in a forum subtitled "For all things butch," but then provides a limited definition of a single subset of butch.

I feel annoyed at the way the same handful of butches seem to feel the need to moderate all conversations about butch from their own perspective of what butch is/is not.

I feel annoyed that the most interesting conversations spawned by this otherwise clichéd "ode" have devolved into yet another battle in the on-going gender war, instead of pursuit of those avenues of discourse.

I feel annoyed that the same person, Wildcat, continues to rant about antagonists, derailing, and the agendas of others while clearly doing exactly the same thing with those kinds of posts. Word: When people disagree with you, or come at a thing from a different place they aren't necessarily antagonizing - they're stating their opinion, speaking from their experience, which is no less valid than yours or that of those who think just like you. Maybe you are full of peace, love and lentils, but it ain't necessarily coming across in your words and effusive punctuation.What I think *feels* most annoying, is that so much energy is spent on this site talking about our differences and inability to understand one another, that it's a wonder to me that we need this, or any other, site at all in order to engage in "community." What all this feels like to me is an elbowing for space, jockeying for territory and a whole lot of denial.

Kosmo, you mention sabotage - I might want to agree with you, as it seems the same few do, in fact, reappear in thread after thread, attempting to speak for butch. Here's news, they don't own butch, and they sure as hell don't speak for all that is butch.

___

Mr. Bent, you are completely in the wrong here. No, I wasn't in any "rant".

My last two posts here were trying to be peaceful and community caring - whether you believe me or not, I don't care. I was speaking in a generalized way, except for what I specifically addressed to Mz.S. Which, quite frankly, is none of your business. I was talking about "me". Men and "me". To her. I welcome feedback, but this was uncalled for.

But, this is single most rudest thing anyone has ever written to/about me since I've been on either of the Butch/femme sites, since... Oct. of Nov. 07 (I believe that's correct).

So thank you. What else can I say to that? This couldn't be more off the mark either, but it says alot about you and your personality here - to me. In fact, it kind of validates my concern about folks being nasty here.

I haven't directed anything to you at all. Or again, anyone here today, but one post. Mz S. your response to me seemed full of anger, and was quite pissy as well. I wrote you a nice true from my heart response with spirit of community. What are you few so angry about? I've done nothing to anyone here and try to be fair minded and welcoming of all.

Screw anyone who doesn't like my letter writing style. Or, how I express myself. That is very nasty too. Sleep well on that. Christ that sounds like grade school shit. Are you upset because ONE TIME I wrote to you on a thread and said "it felt like you try and then take it back"? That is my ONLY history with you here on this entire site, so what right do you have coming after me like this? Where are your manners?

And I don't like lentils, thanks for the sarcastic inference there about folk's lifestyles or whatever that meant to you. You do not know me AT ALL. That was senseless.

Peace be with you in the new year. And I mean that. And to you folks who thank this kind of stuff too, I don't appreciate it. But, good for you.

Wildcat

*I stand by my posts. Thank you.

[Linus]

All right. It's been asked over and over again to get back into topic.

Since no one will, this thread is closed.

There is a handful of you here who seem to dislike each other. I'm going to strongly suggest that you all put each other on ignore (go to your User CP --> Edit Ignore list --> put the person who annoys you into the list and hit Okay). This kind of sniping and ad hominim attacks are unnecessary.

If you cannot learn to step back, I'm sure we can find a way to help you with this if necessary.

Now... where'd my burst vein get to??

[Soon]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

FeminineAllure,

I know your Ode is heartfelt, and I am sure many butches appreciate it.

I am not writing this now to hurt your feelings or attack you, but I found this line too interesting and (after thinking about it for quite some time!) feel compelled to ask a question regarding it.

Why would a butch have any more scent of testosterone than I as a femme?

Even with an endrocine disorder (such as PCOS), where there may be a hormonal imbalance, I don't think one would be able to detect its scent. I know all women have some measure of testosterone in their systems, but, certainly for most, it is not the dominating one.

Basically, wouldn't a butch have the same basic scent or smell (excluding other factors such as cologne etc.) than you or I--as we are both female?


I just found it sort of odd that butches would be equated with the smell of testosterone.
Maybe others wish to weigh in as well.

I don't mean to nitpick, but my eye caught the word *testosterone*, and I was like oh wow...b/c I never noticed a distinct smell of testosterone on butches and thought I would ask about it.

*endocrine

---------
To the butches (do I need to say female ID?), how do you feel about being praised for the scent of testosterone?

[FeminineAllure]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

FeminineAllure,

I know your Ode is heartfelt, and I am sure many butches appreciate it.

I am not writing this now to hurt your feelings or attack you, but I found this line too interesting and (after thinking about it for quite some time!) feel compelled to ask a question regarding it.

Why would a butch have any more scent of testosterone than I as a femme?

Even with an endrocine disorder (such as PCOS), where there may be a hormonal imbalance, I don't think one would be able to detect its scent. I know all women have some measure of testosterone in their systems, but, certainly for most, it is not the dominating one.

Basically, wouldn't a butch have the same basic scent or smell (excluding other factors such as cologne etc.) than you or I--as we are both female?


I just found it sort of odd that butches would be equated with the smell of testosterone.
Maybe others wish to weigh in as well.

I don't mean to nitpick, but my eye caught the word *testosterone*, and I was like oh wow...b/c I never noticed a distinct smell of testosterone on butches and thought I would ask about it.

Good question!
Let me just simplify and replace the word testosterone with pheneromes. Edited to add: I could also use "the masculine scent of your <add any mens cologne you like here.> "
No worries your not nitpicking at all!