Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[justpjhere]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I'm going out on a limb here, and I can only speak for myself... but I have no problem with you adding your perspective to the conversation here. I feel like there is such a huge divide between the Butch community (regardless of whether you are male or female IDd) and the FTM community, that making you go start your conversation elsewhere would just be adding to that. It is such a huge concern for me and for so many of my brothers, this nasty little 'thing' between some Butches and FTMs. I would really like to keep the conversation going and see if we can't get to some common ground.

i have to agree with you...there is a barrier between male identified butches and FTM and there doesnt need to be.

if we seek acceptance by the world in general we have to stand asunited brothers...embrace our differences as well as similarities and stand as strong allies...we all share the same community.

[SelfMadeMan]

Agreed PJ. I don't know when it became a pissing contest, but it's destroying our community. I hear, all too often, that FTMs are recruiting from the Butch community, that we're just Butches that caved to societal pressure, etc etc. I also hear, and have been guilty of thinking in the past myself, that male IDd Butches are just pre-transition FTMs, and that to be Butch, you must be female IDd. I am very ashamed for ever thinking that, and I admit, it was due in large part to my own anger at the transphobia going on in the community. It's all such BS. Each and every one of us have the right to live our own truth, and be respected for who we are as individuals.

[justpjhere]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Agreed PJ. I don't know when it became a pissing contest, but it's destroying our community. I hear, all too often, that FTMs are recruiting from the Butch community, that we're just Butches that caved to societal pressure, etc etc. I also hear, and have been guilty of thinking in the past myself, that male IDd Butches are just pre-transition FTMs, and that to be Butch, you must be female IDd. I am very ashamed for ever thinking that, and I admit, it was due in large part to my own anger at the transphobia going on in the community. It's all such BS. Each and every one of us have the right to live our own truth, and be respected for who we are as individuals.

totally agreee brother...we all fall to earth with our own identities and ill defend with my life the right anyone has to be who they want to be...

dont beat yourself up for past feelings...we learn and grow from error and we move on and live not just side by side but in unity...

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Agreed PJ. I don't know when it became a pissing contest, but it's destroying our community. I hear, all too often, that FTMs are recruiting from the Butch community, that we're just Butches that caved to societal pressure, etc etc. I also hear, and have been guilty of thinking in the past myself, that male IDd Butches are just pre-transition FTMs, and that to be Butch, you must be female IDd. I am very ashamed for ever thinking that, and I admit, it was due in large part to my own anger at the transphobia going on in the community. It's all such BS. Each and every one of us have the right to live our own truth, and be respected for who we are as individuals.

I don't see "a pissing contest". I see genuine differences in perspective. This is real.

Nor do I see SelfMadeMan as having had beliefs that are uncommon to this community. I simply see SelfMadeMan admitting to them which is, I think, good. It's a begin point.

Just because a conversation gets heated and/or messy doesn't mean it isn't necessary or productive. The fact that conversations such as this have been stifled within the LGBTQ community IS, I believe, a source of much of the divisiveness.

Coming into a discussion like this with the expectation that there can be a meeting of the minds is unrealistic. There is history and cultural (writ large) factors that must be parsed before that can happen, if at all. This too is for the good.

What would the world be like if we all of a single mind? It wouldn't be perfection, it would be us ceding our autonomy.

We are all in transition in the truest sense of the term. Identity is, after all, an ongoing evolutionary process. I am not the dyke now that I was a 20, 30, or 40. A sincere thank you to the Universe for that.

There are two, separate and distinct ontological "arguments" going on in this discussion. For the sake of brevity let's say, Thinker represents one, Bulldog the other. In the end, a complete meeting of the minds may not be possible. Certain lived experiences under patriarchy may preclude that possibility. So be it ! What's the alternative? Catastrophizing over the lack of perfect community?

Would it really be so terrible if there really are places where we diverge in our experiences and belief systems? The fact is we do. It isn't any body's job to make another feel good with her/himself. That tenet too often gets lost in the mix.

“Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” ~ Jalal ad-Din Rumi

[SelfMadeMan]

I don't see "a pissing contest". I see genuine differences in perspective. This is real.

My use of the term "pissing contest" was referencing the drama that, at times, goes down when members of the two groups attempt to have a discussion about the issues between them. Of course there are genuine differences, the two groups are different, yet under the same umbrella. The pissing contest comes when one group doesn't feel that the other belongs under that umbrella, being the greater GLBT community. I know as well as anyone how real this issue is, I live it every day, as do the rest of BOTH our communities. Perhaps I come into this discussion with rose colored glasses, but I see NO reason there can't be mutual respect between the Butch and Trans communities. In order to respect one another and stop attacking one another, doesn't mean each individual group must abandon their own issues and struggles. It is a fact that the rift between Butches and Transmen is affecting our community as a whole. It isn't catastrophizing, it is real. I've been told by Butches that the Trans vote for women's issues and equality isn't wanted. While I realize that isn't the majority of Butches, that attitude is still a huge problem for this community. If two groups are different in their issues, then one shouldn't worry about the other? This is exactly what I'm talking about... I am not willing to just say, ok we're different and have different perspectives, so I can't respect yours. This isn't about ignoring these two groups individual issues, it's about solidarity and respect - and that IS possible.

[justpjhere]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I don't see "a pissing contest". I see genuine differences in perspective. This is real.

My use of the term "pissing contest" was referencing the drama that, at times, goes down when members of the two groups attempt to have a discussion about the issues between them. Of course there are genuine differences, the two groups are different, yet under the same umbrella. The pissing contest comes when one group doesn't feel that the other belongs under that umbrella, being the greater GLBT community. I know as well as anyone how real this issue is, I live it every day, as do the rest of BOTH our communities. Perhaps I come into this discussion with rose colored glasses, but I see NO reason there can't be mutual respect between the Butch and Trans communities. In order to respect one another and stop attacking one another, doesn't mean each individual group must abandon their own issues and struggles. It is a fact that the rift between Butches and Transmen is affecting our community as a whole. It isn't catastrophizing, it is real. I've been told by Butches that the Trans vote for women's issues and equality isn't wanted. While I realize that isn't the majority of Butches, that attitude is still a huge problem for this community. If two groups are different in their issues, then one shouldn't worry about the other? This is exactly what I'm talking about... I am not willing to just say, ok we're different and have different perspectives, so I can't respect yours. This isn't about ignoring these two groups individual issues, it's about solidarity and respect - and that IS possible.

i totally agree with you! yes we have very different issues, but also some similar...still that doesnt mater...we are all brothers of the same family and maybe im juvenile in my thinking but i believe in a unison and solidarity...

until we embrace each other, differences and similarities we will never truely gain any acceptance...we pass too much judgement in my opinion...we are all people living in the same world...im a man of peace and i judge no one, and i expect that no one will judge me based on what i have or dont have as part of my physical anatomy...

the world already judges us, why do we bicker and judge each other??? just my 2 cents...

[Chazz]

Thank you for the exchange, SelfMadeMan.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

My use of the term "pissing contest" was referencing the drama that, at times, goes down when members of the two groups attempt to have a discussion about the issues between them.

Yes, I understood that.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Of course there are genuine differences, the two groups are different, yet under the same umbrella. The pissing contest comes when one group doesn't feel that the other belongs under that umbrella, being the greater GLBT community.

Yes, there are different groups under the umbrella. One group self-defines primarily on the bases of sexual orientation. Another on the bases of gender. Some lesbians see gender as fluid others as an artificial construct. And so on.... I am aware of the issues.

The reality is there are a number of smaller umbrellas under the LGBTQ umbrella. This is not an occasion for "pissing contests"; it's a situation that calls for mutual accommodation where and when possible. When that is not possible, as is sometimes the case, respectful disengagement is an alternative.

Would that the expectation be: We meet where and when we can, so that the burden of unanimity be lifted from all our shoulders.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I know as well as anyone how real this issue is, I live it every day, as do the rest of BOTH our communities.

Yes, most of us do "live it every day".

Implied in your phrase: "....BOTH our communities", is an acknowledgment that people are differently located. It's all most of us can can do to navigate our own personal landscapes, let alone someone else's.

With few exceptions, I don't expect that my issues need be any one else's issues, including, people standing under my little umbrella.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Perhaps I come into this discussion with rose colored glasses, but I see NO reason there can't be mutual respect between the Butch and Trans communities. In order to respect one another and stop attacking one another, doesn't mean each individual group must abandon their own issues and struggles.

To the extent that there is mutual disrespect, I don't think it necessarily has to do with the expectation that one abandon her/his "issues and struggles", except when it does. I think it has to do with not respecting other peoples' opinions. Which is not to say that all opinions are equally respectable. A moral relativist, I'm not.

However, I do think that there has sometimes been a prioritizing of concerns within the LGBTQ community that doesn't necessarily encompass everybody's "issues and struggles". Take the EDNA controversy for instance.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

It is a fact that the rift between Butches and Transmen is affecting our community as a whole. It isn't catastrophizing, it is real.

Catastrophizing is real.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I've been told by Butches that the Trans vote for women's issues and equality isn't wanted.

My neighbor, Dick, is a dyed in the wool homophobe. I appreciate his voting in agreement with me, nevertheless.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

While I realize that isn't the majority of Butches, that attitude is still a huge problem for this community. If two groups are different in their issues, then one shouldn't worry about the other? This is exactly what I'm talking about...

I understand your frustration, SelfMadeMan. However, there are places where agendas/perspectives do diverge and conflict. Ignoring, glossing over those areas may serve one, but not both, constituencies. Sometimes agreeing to disagree IS the only respectful route.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I am not willing to just say, ok we're different and have different perspectives, so I can't respect yours. This isn't about ignoring these two groups individual issues, it's about solidarity and respect - and that IS possible.

Solidarity in all things is not always possible. The expectation of solidarity can foster enmity.

Respect is earned, provisional, contingent. Beyond respecting my fundamental human rights, you are under no obligation to respect, or agree, with me. If I choose to feel disrespected, it's because you're triggering something in me.

[BullDog]

No DomnNC, I don't think any of those things you are charging women with and don't know of any that do.

I am happy there are people like Mike to talk to who don't get angry and defensive when the topic of male privilege comes up and who treat me with respect and listen and share their own thoughts and experiences. Those are the types of people that I can relate to and give me hope that common ground can be reached.

[DomnNC]

I didn't charge women with anything Bulldog, I do believe I said ALL or ya'll which encompasses ALL quite a bit. I'm not angry and defensive, I stated my opinion just as you do yours. The only thing I stated was the constant derailing of threads here with charges of male privilege, which happens to be the truth for the most part. I've yet to run across a topic in the Trans zone (admittedly I haven't looked at every single one) where someone runs in and starts derailing the thread with male privilege. But thanks for listening and respecting my viewpoint as well, perhaps you should reread and "listen" this time. This thread started out with someone merely asking the difference between male-identified butchs vs trans, look where it is now.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by Chazz

I understand your frustration, SelfMadeMan. However, there are places where agendas/perspectives do diverge and conflict. Ignoring, glossing over those areas may serve one, but not both, constituencies. Sometimes agreeing to disagree IS the only respectful route.

Solidarity in all things is not always possible. The expectation of solidarity can foster enmity.
.

Thank you for your response... I really do appreciate your contribution to this conversation. Perhaps this is one of those times we respectfully have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this issue. You see, I don't think asking for members of the GLBT community to stop attacking one another, even when they aren't on the same page, is glossing over anything, and I do think solidarity in this community is possible, especially when fighting for equality and freedom from oppression.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." - John Lennon

[DomnNC]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Thank you for your response... I really do appreciate your contribution to this conversation. Perhaps this is one of those times we respectfully have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this issue. You see, I don't think asking for members of the GLBT community to stop attacking one another, even when they aren't on the same page, is glossing over anything, and I do think solidarity in this community is possible, especially when fighting for equality and freedom from oppression.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." - John Lennon

I agree with you 100% on this. It's time for the bickering to end, we're ALL in the same boat of discrimination, harrassment, and judgemental attitudes and we ALL want the same thing and that is equality and protection under the law.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Thank you for your response... I really do appreciate your contribution to this conversation. Perhaps this is one of those times we respectfully have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this issue. You see, I don't think asking for members of the GLBT community to stop attacking one another, even when they aren't on the same page, is glossing over anything, and I do think solidarity in this community is possible, especially when fighting for equality and freedom from oppression.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." - John Lennon

Thank you, you're welcome, and likewise, I'm sure. We can agree to disagree.

Maybe you're a little bit of a dreamer. Grand ideals have their place.

In most cases, there is solidarity on the big, issues like human rights and such. However, there are other issues that are knottier, like woman-only spaces and the perception that transitioning endows FTMs with male privilege, etc., etc.. These will not soon be resolved, I think.

Especially, when I read something like this:

It's almost like some of you want us that male identify and can pass or those who have transition to lay down on our bellies, crawl like a snake and beg your (general) forgiveness for simply being who we are. Chuckles, I for one will never do that. I have no apologies to make to anyone for being simply who I am.

This kind of perspective is not inconsequential.

[BullDog]

Thanks SelfMadeMan for your invitation to participate.

Sometimes I honestly think what we have in common is the discrimination that we face, and it feels kind of uncomfortable for me to rally around persecution as something to bond over. However in a political sense it is quite smart and necessary.

Also, I am not sure if the statements about Brotherhood were intended for all butches and transmen or just male identified butches and transmen. If it was the latter, it makes sense. If it was the former, I don't relate. I don't really relate all that well to someone I don't know calling me Sister either, but if we are talking inclusion I don't want to always have to translate everything in my head. I never hear anyone talking about Butches and Transmen uniting together in Sisterhood.

Transmen are part of the butch femme community because it resonates with them. I get that and appreciate that. I understand that transmen feel the complexities of their lives are not understood and they are branded as the "enemy." We can bond over the fact that we are in a community together and there are some commonalities we share, for sure. I too have been sirred and maa'med all in the same day on many occasions.

To me a simple request from a femme to be aware of male privilege when in the presence of women and the harm that can potentially cause women due to the inequalities between men and women that exist in society should be listened to and not met with such hostility and defensiveness. She was talking about interpersonal interactions.

Also, in my opinion, the root of homophobia and transphobia is sexism. It is in everyone's best interest to understand the roots and intersections. I don't believe in any shape or form that Homophobia or Transphobia can be wiped out with sexism fully in place. Transphobia is specific but it also comes from sexism. Take for example the case of Nikki Araguz for those who are familiar with her story. She is denied being taking seriously as a woman but at the very same time being treated in a very sexist manner as the "gold digging" woman. When transmen are denied their male status they are viewed as "not real men." These cases are transphobia but they are also very rooted in sexism. Right now the Republican Party in the United States is waging a war on women. This won't make it easier for queers or trans people either when trying to limit women or put them into place.

So I think transmen should talk about the complexities of their lives and we should listen. I also think transmen should listen to what women are saying about living as a woman in a sexist world. Hopefully we can learn from each other, have fun hanging out together and help each other out where we can.

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thanks SelfMadeMan for your invitation to participate.

So I think transmen should talk about the complexities of their lives and we should listen. I also think transmen should listen to what women are saying about living as a woman in a sexist world. Hopefully we can learn from each other, have fun hanging out together and help each other out where we can.

I love this last paragraph. It definitely strikes a cord for me. I am lucky that my husband is also a feminist. He is very proactive in women's Issues and equality for women. He has helped me raise two very strong, feminist daughters. He has helped me empower them, and he has helped me empower myself. I am grateful for that every day. He has not forgotten the community where he spent a large portion of his adult life. He oftens speaks out and stands up for the rights of all those in the GLBTQIAA community, not just the T. I believe what affects one of us, affects us all.

[SelfMadeMan]

Sometimes I honestly think what we have in common is the discrimination that we face, and it feels kind of uncomfortable for me to rally around persecution as something to bond over. However in a political sense it is quite smart and necessary.

It is a large part of what we have in common... although I don't really see it as rallying around persecution in the bonding sense, rather, rallying around a shared issue in solidarity. We can bond over lots of issues, that may or may not have anything to do with gender. You and I may share a love of some of the same movies, we may both love cooking (I do), we may both ride Harley's... even though our struggles may be more different than they are similar, we can get along.

Transmen are part of the butch femme community because it resonates with them. I get that and appreciate that. I understand that transmen feel the complexities of their lives are not understood and they are branded as the "enemy." We can bond over the fact that we are in a community together and there are some commonalities we share, for sure. I too have been sirred and maa'med all in the same day on many occasions.

For me, having nowhere else that felt like it fit, I did spend over 10 years as part of the lesbian community, it's where I grew up. I feel a certain investment in the issues that affect the entire GLBT community, but especially, women. As I look back, no, I don't think I was ever a lesbian in the true sense of the word, because I always felt male. But that doesn't change the fact that I lived it to some extent and know the issues - do they all affect me now, as a man? No. But I care.

To me a simple request from a femme to be aware of male privilege when in the presence of women and the harm that can potentially cause women due to the inequalities between men and women that exist in society should be listened to and not met with such hostility and defensiveness. She was talking about interpersonal interactions.

Agreed. I had/have no issues at all with being asked to be aware of male privilege. I have no problem accepting that I gained male privilege with transition. I choose to see this as a positive, because I use that privilege to try and affect the (bio)men in my life, and those I encounter on a daily basis.


So I think transmen should talk about the complexities of their lives and we should listen. I also think transmen should listen to what women are saying about living as a woman in a sexist world. Hopefully we can learn from each other, have fun hanging out together and help each other out where we can.[/QUOTE]

Again, agreed. I think ALL members of the GLBT community should be aware of one another, and not only respect the individual experiences, but have an attitude of solidarity. What does it say to the outside world, the homophobes, if we're attacking one another? I truly feel each of us is interesting in our diversity, I look at the rainbow flag and see the different colors and think of all the unique, wonderful members of the community at large. Maybe I'm naive, but I think we CAN all learn to get along and fight ALL oppression. I would also like to add that I am a Psychology/Gender & Women's Studies major... I care deeply for what women have to say and I know I'm not alone in that. I'm not patting myself on the back, just want to point out that just because I transitioned, didn't mean I had anything against women... I just wasn't one :-)

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Chazz

There are two, separate and distinct ontological "arguments" going on in this discussion. For the sake of brevity let's say, Thinker represents one, Bulldog the other.

I would just like to go on record as saying that I don't actually believe Bulldog and I are on opposing sides of any argument. Personally, I believe we share many core values and beliefs.

I think the scope of these types of discussion is broader for me because I am a transman. I also don't believe for one second that I am right about any of this and that Bulldog is wrong......or vice versa. I think the "thing" that fires us up just happens to be different. And I think that's okay. I also think, Chazz, that lends itself to what you were saying too.

I applaud your entire post. I just wanted to throw in my two cents on the part I quoted above.

Respectfully,
Thinker

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Thinker

I would just like to go on record as saying that I don't actually believe Bulldog and I are on opposing sides of any argument. Personally, I believe we share many core values and beliefs.

I think the scope of these types of discussion is broader for me because I am a transman. I also don't believe for one second that I am right about any of this and that Bulldog is wrong......or vice versa. I think the "thing" that fires us up just happens to be different. And I think that's okay. I also think, Chazz, that lends itself to what you were saying too.

I applaud your entire post. I just wanted to throw in my two cents on the part I quoted above.

Respectfully,
Thinker

I agree with this. I don't think Thinker and I represent opposing sides, although I do think I get the short hand Chazz was trying to describe in a few words. I do think that a meeting of the minds may be possible even if people are not coming from the same perspective if there is genuine good will and the recognition that we have to fight sexism together- for our shared as well as separate best interests.

There are very real reasons why women need to be very vigilant about sexism.

I am happy to hear about transmen's lives and the challenges they face. It can be confusing at times because sometimes transmen seem to be quite offended when they are viewed differently from other men and sometimes they are asking to be seen as different.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am happy to hear about transmen's lives and the challenges they face. It can be confusing at times because sometimes transmen seem to be quite offended when they are viewed differently from other men and sometimes they are asking to be seen as different.

I totally see what you're saying. I know many Transmen who are angered by the suggestion that they are different from bio-men. Speaking only for myself, and my experience, I view MYSELF differently than other men. And it's in a good way. I certainly don't feel like less of a man than a bio man, but our life experiences are vastly different, and I come into this with real life experience being seen by society as a woman. I've experienced opposition as a woman, I've seen how men exclude a woman's point of view in a conversation, I've experienced how differently men look at me now that I am "one of the guys" - how they look me directly in the eye when speaking to me, and it makes me sick. So no, I am not the same as a bio-man. I wasn't raised being taught by society that I am better, stronger, or more capable. I have experienced both sides, and I am proud to be a feminist and I am passionate about gender equality. And THAT is where I think we have a lot of common ground.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I totally see what you're saying. I know many Transmen who are angered by the suggestion that they are different from bio-men. Speaking only for myself, and my experience, I view MYSELF differently than other men. And it's in a good way. I certainly don't feel like less of a man than a bio man, but our life experiences are vastly different, and I come into this with real life experience being seen by society as a woman. I've experienced opposition as a woman, I've seen how men exclude a woman's point of view in a conversation, I've experienced how differently men look at me now that I am "one of the guys" - how they look me directly in the eye when speaking to me, and it makes me sick. So no, I am not the same as a bio-man. I wasn't raised being taught by society that I am better, stronger, or more capable. I have experienced both sides, and I am proud to be a feminist and I am passionate about gender equality. And THAT is where I think we have a lot of common ground.

Yes, I can totally understand this. Different is not less than.

I am a different sort of woman being a butch. It doesn't make me less than other types of women.

Yes, I think we have a lot of common ground.

Thanks Mike!

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am happy to hear about transmen's lives and the challenges they face. It can be confusing at times because sometimes transmen seem to be quite offended when they are viewed differently from other men and sometimes they are asking to be seen as different.

There's a difference between the way a person wants to be seen and the way the majority of society actually sees them. Because of that, there are a lot of social/economic issues and challenges that touch transmen that don't touch straight cismen to the same degree no matter how a transman wants to be seen. While a transman is no less of a man than a cisman, he does have different challenges, because of the way society perceives trans people, that will likely persist throughout his life. Those challenges affect the way he walks through the world.

I think that's the issue for a lot of people under the "trans" umbrella.

They may not always or necessarily want to be seen as different when it comes to gender, but the statistical reality is that we are at a much higher risk than other men. That, I think, is where a distinction should be made for the purpose of improving human rights issues.

It also depends on the transman/woman. Some want to be seen as specifically transmen/women, or no gender specifically, while others want to be seen as simply male/female. Or a combination of identities. I don't think any one way of looking at it can be applied to all trans people.