Did the Pakistan government know Osama bin Laden was there?

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

We just pissed the Pakis off today by killing 15 so far with drones on their border of Afganistan. They already warned US : No More Strikes INSIDE Pak. It should be interesting how this is played out. I'm also thinking are we acting quickly on info we received from the raid?

I also read this morning dated May 3, interesting article by Alex Jones at http://www.infowars.com/forget-pakis...ion-all-along/

Ignorance abounds.........

by the way..........Alex Jones is an ultra-right wing idealogue and a conspiracy junkie...........why in the hell would anyone read his lies????

[Toughy]

Did the Pakistan government know where bin Laden was hiding ..............shrug...........maybe some folks in the government did and some didn't.

Did we violate Pakistan's ground and airspace? We have been bombing the Pakistan/Afghanistan border for months now with the permission of Pakistan. President Obama publicly said we would go in and get bin Laden and he said it often.

I'm completely sure Pakistan officials knew we would send in a team at any time to get him if we knew where he was.

It's a moot point as far as I am concerned. The thing that is good is that we didn't bomb the fuck out of the area his compound was located and created lots of civilian casualities, no intelligence/information, and possibly not killing him. This was quick, clean....in and out with minimal damage and lots of intelligience/infomation found.

Concerning one of bin Laden's wives and child(ren) seeing him get a part of his head blown off. The wife knew what could happen if she lived with him. She did not have to be there, nor did the children. I'm not likely to shed a tear or have a second thought about her seeing him get killed.

[Words]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Concerning one of bin Laden's wives and child(ren) seeing him get a part of his head blown off. The wife knew what could happen if she lived with him. She did not have to be there, nor did the children. I'm not likely to shed a tear or have a second thought about her seeing him get killed.

No one's asking you to shed a tear about anything Toughy.

I disagree with you though about the wife and children not having to be there. Why wouldn't they be there? This was her husband, their father -where else were they likely to be?

You might not care about a 12 year old seeing her father blown to bits but me? Yeah, I have an issue with it. I've met children like that before, seen what it does to them, and I'm sorry, but given that Bin Laden wasn't armed, I just don't get why killing him in front of his family was necessary.

And no, I don't care who he was, or what he did - I'd say exactly the same thing were we talking about Hitler. Sins of the fathers, and all that.

Words

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Words

Why wouldn't they be there? This was her husband, their father -where else were they likely to be?

Thank you. i normally don't get "upset" by posts, but an earlier one saying that his wives were there probably just for sex and that the kids were just basically thought of as new canon fodder for the revolution nearly made me wretch.

That is classic othering. CLASSIC dehumanization of the other. If you say someone cannot love their wives or their children, what are they? If we dehumanize others, then we are doing exactly what Osama did, which is what made it possible for him to kill innocents.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Words

No one's asking you to shed a tear about anything Toughy.

I disagree with you though about the wife and children not having to be there. Why wouldn't they be there? This was her husband, their father -where else were they likely to be?

You might not care about a 12 year old seeing her father blown to bits but me? Yeah, I have an issue with it. I've met children like that before, seen what it does to them, and I'm sorry, but given that Bin Laden wasn't armed, I just don't get why killing him in front of his family was necessary.

And no, I don't care who he was, or what he did - I'd say exactly the same thing were we talking about Hitler. Sins of the fathers, and all that.

Words

This brings me back to working with foster kids, far too many of them seeing a parent (or both) murdered. They never get over this. In some cases, the parents knew they were putting their kids in harms way, but drug induced states clouded common sense.

I don't believe bin Laden should have had his kids in that situation in the first place. It goes against my every thread of what parent protection ought to be.

However, I realize that I am speaking from a very different cultural perspective. I have never lived (well, until 9/11- but still very different than countless countries where this stuff goes on almost daily) with this kind of violence surrounding me as part of life.

There are many, many of us here in the US that derive no satisfaction from the killing of his kids or some of them seeing this. They are little kids.

It is the "part of life" worldwide that bothers me- and what feels like a lack of any regard for figuring out how we (the US) can change how we are viewed. This bothers me deeply. There is no “closure” here at all.

[Toughy]

I am not always perfect. I try to be. I try to always see the humanity in folks. I certainly am not celebrating his death or the manner in which he was killed. As I said my preference was alive and in our civilian judicial system.

As to why an unarmed man was killed........without being there I cannot say why it happened. Having been in the military I can see how it would happen. War kills unarmed folks. There was every justified expectation that bin Laden was armed and dangerous. He had said he would not be taken alive.

However your point is taken. It is a bad thing to not really care about what a woman and her child saw, regardless of who they are.

Originally Posted by Words

No one's asking you to shed a tear about anything Toughy.

I disagree with you though about the wife and children not having to be there. Why wouldn't they be there? This was her husband, their father -where else were they likely to be?

You might not care about a 12 year old seeing her father blown to bits but me? Yeah, I have an issue with it. I've met children like that before, seen what it does to them, and I'm sorry, but given that Bin Laden wasn't armed, I just don't get why killing him in front of his family was necessary.

And no, I don't care who he was, or what he did - I'd say exactly the same thing were we talking about Hitler. Sins of the fathers, and all that.

Words

[Glenn]

This country provided a safe haven for Osama Bin Laden while taking money from US taxpayers.
This country encourages it's 98% Muslim majority to kidnap and kill it's 1% Christian minority.
This country exports terrorists to UK, France, Sweden, Germany, and America.
If you are the POTUS, what would you do about Pakistan?

Me: Cut off all aid
Withdraw all troops.
Let whichever enemies they have do whatever.
I still don't know what to do about our convoys in Afganistan

[Toughy]

I have no idea about Pakistan except to continue engaging them in a constructive manner. They have nukes, so we must look at them differently. India also has nukes. There has been border wars for years and years and they don't like each other at all. Letting enemies deal with Pakistan makes me nervous when I think about the possiblity of nuclear weapons being used by and/or against Pakistan.

We have safe haven for 'terrorists' in this country. We allow the christian majority to oppress and kill folks that don't agree with their particular version of christianity. We invaded and destroyed a country for no damn good reason (Iraq).

I do know what I would do about Afghanistan: start the withdrawal of every single military person AND every single mercenary...ooppppsss private security people. Obama says we will start withdrawal in June or July this year. I also think no military base should be there........I'm not sure what Obama has to say about that. A consulate and a few Marines should be left.

I also think the same thing should be done in Iraq.....all US troops and mercenaries should be withdrawn. No military base in Iraq. A consulate and the marines who protect them should be there.

[AtLast]

One of the things that always enters my mind concerning Pakistan is the assination of Benazir Bhutto.

[Kat]

The "aid" goes to corrupt government officials, just like it does in every country we bribe with money. They don't give a shit about their people, but their people are the ones who are dying. Same story, different country...

That said, I think Pakistani civilians would be overjoyed if we withdrew our troops:

"The Brookings Institution suggests that drone strikes may kill "10 or so civilians" for every militant killed.The Pakistani military has stated that most of those killed were hardcore Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants. However Pakistan's Interior Minister Rehman Malik said "Drone missiles cause collateral damage. A few militants are killed, but the majority of victims are innocent citizens." (Wikipedia - Pakistan drones)

So when are we going to add the U.S. to the axis of evil? Oh, wait -- we're the WHEEL...

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

This country provided a safe haven for Osama Bin Laden while taking money from US taxpayers.
This country encourages it's 98% Muslim majority to kidnap and kill it's 1% Christian minority.
This country exports terrorists to UK, France, Sweden, Germany, and America.
If you are the POTUS, what would you do about Pakistan?

Me: Cut off all aid
Withdraw all troops.
Let whichever enemies they have do whatever.
I still don't know what to do about our convoys in Afganistan

[sharkchomp]

Did Pakistan know where bin Laden was? I'd say yes and I'd say several nations probally did. We may have even known he was there for a while, but I'm sure politics had to be worked out before we moved in. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't want him there and a 'deal' was worked out with us.

Do I feel bad that he was killed? Nope. I'm not out celebrating in the streets but I do feel a small justice has been served. I've read a lot of people saying in essense they couldn't condone his murder, but bin Laden wasn't a nice guy. He was an evil man with an agenda, much like Hitler. The United States is a pretty forgiving nation, I get it. It's been ten years and a lot of people have died over the 'war against terror'. But I think back to the day the Towers (our nation) was attacked. Thousands of people died gruesomely. People jumped out of the Twin Towers to their deaths. I'll never forget the sounds of their bodies impacting the ground, sounding like small explosions. A person has to be facing something pretty horrific to jump to their death. People burned. People were ground to bits to never be found in the collapse. People were on planes going on the merry way. I can only imagine their fear as the terrorists took over the planes, waiting to be rescued or trying to regain control of the plane. Those people were our fellow Americans. They were someones Daddy or Mommy, someone's son or daughter, husband or wife. So no, I don't feel bad he was murdered. I'm sure the families of the people who were murdered on 9-11 don't feel bad that he is dead either.

Also, I want to add this. When we invaded Iraq (the second time), I was very against this war but a couple of years ago I worked with someone from Iraq. I asked her if she was against the war/invasion. She said, "No, I'm not against it at all. Sadam was killed and that is a great thing. Now the U.S. hasn't kept some of the promises they made, but otherwise, it's much better over there." It was a great conversation and I learned a lot from her about how the Iraq people view our government. So perhaps in a small way, the war was worth it? I'm still undecided but after her conversation I did feel a bit better about it.

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

[Glenn]

To all those Americans here who think what we've done is just as bad as OsamaBin Motherfucking Laden: You people should really try to make me understand this better by leaving my evil country and go live with Osama's family and start blowing up women and children in the name of Allah, if we're just as bad. Disgraceful. All you need to do is look at the type of country we've produced, then look at the type of country the Bin Laden mindset has produced (like Afganistan under taliban) and what arguement do I need to make? Where people can mostly say whatever they want in public vs one where you can be beaten down in the street by religious poliice for not wearing the right clothes or listening to music? So why am I thinking bad thoughts about radical moslems? Blow me sir.

[Rook]

After a very long day, I'm very drowsy, can't keep up with reading this rather interesting Debate..
I will "Explain" my vote very briefly, for tonight, and subscribe..
You'll have to brush off any misunderstanding until I'm wide awake...
So, that being said..
Like quite a few, maybe they did....maybe they didn't....I'm leaning towards highly suspicious but not quite sure [why else would they take so fucking long to shoot him?*besides profit!*]
Let's take this "Fabulously Powerful" country called the U.S., ok....
Bear with me...
Some [Warren Jeffs comes to mind]Fundamentalist Mormons, marrying their cousin-sister-aunties, and banishing the potential rival son-uncle-nephews...in Enclaves that most of us had no fucking clue...
Not terrorists, true....but, we had no clue....

another example, take a pick of Serial killers....
My favorite?
Zodiac....
Why? Fucker to this day has yet to be found, within our own country....
Smart cookie...

And of course, there's the very touchy part...
Illegal Immigrants, some acting out as "Mules", not all are south of the border...
Some violate Visas[work, student, etc...]
Some have dubious intentions, and some are simply trying to slide under the wire to live with their same-sex partner and 2 kids.
After all the U.S. forbids gay marriage and gay rights within Immigration....
Immigration idea being said,
Who knows if private rich Pakistani's paid of private easily bribed poor Soldiers to protect their "rich" enclave, so they can have....what they might've considered, the Honor to be Host to a man who leads a fanatic cause against what is perceived in some places the most powerful Bully worldwide.
I say this because Persian, Middle Eastern, and Arab hospitality is notoriously known, a Guest is usually treated as King, regardless of known or stranger, once immediate danger is written off.....
That Intelligence was leaked by a greedy guard, higher up Pakistani Gov. maybe? Ok, Thats plausable too.....
But you really can't expect Pakistan to be aware of every Minute detail going on in a country where if u even dare pass the Khyber Pass anonymously, and live to tell, you're fuckin' Blessed.
Even we have issues, and our immigration laws are slowly choking the statue of liberty.....

{btw, i thoroughly agree on the "paki" crap, i cringed with every time i read it...especially when someone treated it so casual...it's as if someone just shrugged off calling me a spic, or half-breed }

g'night...