Clothes do not Maketh the butch ....

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Miss Scarlett

Jomore, i appreciate your explanation but not the patronizing and condescending manner with which is delivered.

Your original post to Jomore came across scathingly condescending and sarcastic, Miss Scarlett, and you had misread and misinterpreted what Jomore actually said.

If it were me who had made such a mistake, I personally would be apologizing for my own rudeness rather than objecting to the answer it got me.

I recently read a thread Medusa started where she asks us all to show some patience and graciousness towards new members. I think that's a good idea. It might save us some embarrasment, especially if the mistake might not be theirs but ours.

[PumaJ]

"Clothes really matter to me. I'm an unrepentant Dandy.
Clothes help me to define myself & who I am in the world. Whether we like it or not, our clothing signals to others certain things about who we are." ~ Jomore

Jomore, hooray for your being an "unrepentant Dandy":-) I tend to agree with your statement regarding clothing serves as a way to communicate certain things about ourselves to others, if for no other reason than that is what the dominant culture & media teaches us about our clothes.

In my view, clothes do not determine gender, though certainly clothes are often used as a way to give a visual representation of one's gender. The style of that representation is really a matter of personal preference. Using myself as an example, I am a very "girly" Femme, a High Femme. Sometimes, I really amp it up, especially if I'm going out to some sort of social event. The style I choose to rock depends on the event. Even on an average day, when I am dressed "down" in T-shirt & pants, if I am going out to do anything at all, anything, even grocery shopping, on goes some makeup & jewelry bling, because that is what feels good to me. Now, if I am staying home & chillin' well...different story. Once, when going out to a party, I borrowed a shirt & tie from my partner at the time & put them on with a pair of my Levis. Did I look like a Butch? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha... no way in h..ll! Everyone loved my "high fashion" statement though & thought I looked quite fly.

Once a long time ago, not long after I'd become lovers with a most handsome Butch, I noticed that sometimes she wore women's undies & sometimes even some mascara. "Hmm," I thought, "what's up with that?" So, I very gently asked her about it. I said something like, "Honey, are you more comfortable wearing women's undies & puttin' on mascara?"

To which she answered that no, she wasn't, not really. I asked, "Oh? So why do you then?"

Her answer was that her ex. thought it was weird that she wanted to wear men's briefs & no makeup because she "is a woman after all".

"Oh, really?" I said. Well, my lover was probably an 81/2 or 9 on the masculine of center spectrum & that girly stuff just didn't feel or look right to me. So, I said, "Honey, no offense, but you know you kind of look like you're in drag when you wear women's undies & mascara."

"Really? You think so? Kind of feels that way to me. Won't it bother you if I wear men's briefs?"

"Honey, I suspect that given that you are so Butch, what feels comfortable
most likely includes men's briefs, shirts, pants, socks, jackets, coats, hats...and the like. So, of course, you get to wear any & all of that. Plus, honestly, that is part of what makes me weak in the knees over Butches."

Tears...there were tears in her eyes. She just looked at me then said, "You get it, don't you? You really get it & you like it."

"Yes, darlin', I get it & I most definitely like it."

We are who we are. Clothes do not determine that. Some of us may pay more attention to what we put on in terms of specific style or fashion & really get into using our clothes to express aspects of ourselves, & to look fly, but some of us don't. Either way, we are who we are as women who are masculine of center or femme of center.

BTW, Jomore, my panties haven't been put in a twist by the manner in which you have expressed yourself because 1) I totally grokked what you were saying, 2) I didn't perceive any animosity in your words, & 3) I've learned that many times it is easy to misinterpret what others write in net land when all we have is text to express ourselves & not all of us are fab wordsmiths.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Jomore

Ahhh Ms Scarlett!!! Thank you for your vigilance! But not I prefaced the remark with the words "femmes I KNOW" (emphasis added) not you, not all femmes, just a select group of high femmes of my personal accquaintance. I was actually trying to make that distinction, and not make sweeping generalizations, I'm sure you'd look fine in some of my clothes, wanna come over sand lay dressups wimme?

sorry babe, but nothing to get flakey about, OK? I'm just a dumb ol' Butch with poor Internet social skills, still learning, not very savvy.
Suitably chastened, I won't say anything more on the subject.
Sorry
Jo

Originally Posted by Miss Scarlett

Jomore, i appreciate your explanation but not the patronizing and condescending manner with which is delivered.

In addition, your opprobrious use of the terms "babe" and "flakey" cannot be so easily dismissed through your claim of being "...just a dumb ol' Butch with poor Internet social skills, still learning, not very savvy."

You are welcome to send me a PM if you change your mind and wish to discuss this further.

Originally Posted by Bit

Your original post to Jomore came across scathingly condescending and sarcastic, Miss Scarlett, and you had misread and misinterpreted what Jomore actually said.

If it were me who had made such a mistake, I personally would be apologizing for my own rudeness rather than objecting to the answer it got me.

I recently read a thread Medusa started where she asks us all to show some patience and graciousness towards new members. I think that's a good idea. It might save us some embarrasment, especially if the mistake might not be theirs but ours.

I just want to settle all of this down before things get too heated.

The mod team actually appreciates the heck out of members handling these kinds of exchanges amongst themselves. It's a step on the way, we hope, to more civil discourse on these boards.

Jo, your use of the terms 'babe' and 'flakey' are understandably offensive; that particular sentence sounded pretty patronizing.

Miss Scarlett, it does appear you read something different into what Jo was saying about femmes s/he (unsure of pronoun preference) knows. We do appreciate you offering to continue the conversation via PM.

Bit, you're right; we should all work a little harder to make new members feel welcome.......particularly those who are knew to the b/f community in general. Your address to Miss Scarlett probably sounded a little more terse than it needed to, so we encourage you to think about that in future postings. If you see a post you find highly offensive and feel you might not be able to have a constructive exchange with the individual, feel free to report it and allow the mod team to look over the post.

Seriously, thank you all for working to handle the misunderstandings amongst yourselves. It is greatly appreciated.

Please do not derail further by responding to this moderation in the thread. If you have pertinent questions regarding this, shoot me a private message.

Thinker (moderator)