Possible Triggering: Violence against butches.

[asphaltcowboi]

hmm i have been both verbaly and phisicaly attacked not once not twice but a few times.. ha! an i spent most my life in the bay area calif! never been sexually asulted (unless you count that one femme i knew and i liked it). ok so the most phisical attack was coming out of a gay bar, i was jumped an knifed cut in the lower private areas still have scares. just for walking out of the bar i guess.i dont think it would have mattered if i was butch or gay or any of the ID's i believe it was just haters...another time i went to visit my g/f at work she was a bartenter in a sports bar and ended up being beat by a pool stick and that was because i was butch and dated a beautiful woman.. the guy even said "so you think your good enough to be a man?" wtf he meant by that i douno and im not going back to ask. it wasnt like i was putting my realtionship out for the whole straight crew to dwell on. another time i was ruffed up pretty good by some cops that were just doing there job, i did do wrong but soon as they realized i was female the treatment got alot rougher. there has been several more times but i think the most hurtfull one came from my or what i thought was my own comunity. a soft butch telling me that i was rediclouse looking and why didnt i soften up my looks then telling my g/f why didnt she just date a guy.. i dont know this seemed to hurt more than any phisical abuse i suffered.. im not sure if it was because i new alot would agree or the fact that it felt like it was coming from family.

[Soon]

A little over five years (pre-transitioned) ago my husband got kidney punched--hard--in Orlando at The House of Blues b/c these guys saw him with three attractive women and they HATED it. He could not see, obviously, who did it b/c it was from behind.

He reported it to security (off-duty police), but that off-duty guy didnt give jack shit and looked at Daniel with disgust.

(These words are largely Daniel's)

I do have to say, now that he is recognized as a man, he has no issues with harrassment and gets actual *nods* from men instead. That is deserving of another thread entirely--I have seen it.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

A little over five years (pre-transitioned) ago my husband got kidney punched--hard--in Orlando at The House of Blues b/c these guys saw him with three attractive women and they HATED it. He could not see, obviously, who did it b/c it was from behind.

He reported it to security (off-duty police), but that off-duty guy didnt give jack shit and looked at Daniel with disgust.

(These words are largely Daniel's)

I do have to say, now that he is recognized as a man, he has no issues with harrassment and gets actual *nods* from men instead. That is deserving of another thread entirely--I have seen it.

This brings back a couple of situations that happened to me with straight me that had a problem with my being with a woman (femme) that obviously they just could not fathom being a lesbian. In fact, this was the circunstance of my being jumped by 3 men as we left a club. They were waiting for us outside. It was very scary for both of us. I was hit over the head with a broken beer bottle. Mt gf at the time feared being raped by them- so did I. Lucky for us, a group of people (mixed straights, gays and lesbians) came out and intervened. One ran back inside and asked the bartender to call the police. LOL.. back in the day, before cell phones!

I actually had something like this happen recently- although I was not hit. But the husband of a woman I befriended at my local dog park got riled when she introduced me one day. Later, as I got to know her better, she told me she is bisexual and they have an open marriage. But he can't stand to see her with a woman that is or could be a lover. Yikes! I just enjoy walking and talking with her with our dogs. I'm fine with their marriage agrements and her bisexuality, but, have no interest in getting involved with her. Not in my comfort zone. But even now, if I am walking with her and he shows up at the park, his whole demeanor changes. I did talk to her about this and the fact that it makes me uncomfortable- she said she told him we are not lovers. I don't know about that. But she has not tried to pursue a sexual relationship with me after I made it clear that I wasn't interested. Who knows- I only run into her every month or so.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

she is bisexual and they have an open marriage. But he can't stand to see her with a woman that is or could be a lover. Yikes! I just enjoy walking and talking with her with our dogs. I'm fine with their marriage agrements and her bisexuality, but, have no interest in getting involved with her. Not in my comfort zone. But even now, if I am walking with her and he shows up at the park, his whole demeanor changes.

Doesn't sound very open to me.

[Merlin]

Can I also add that some butches may not identify as female butches, you wear the skin your given. I am biologically female though my entire being to the core including thoughts is male identified.

I believe I am gender dysphoric,not on the scale of transition as I am happy to live my day to day life as a male in appearance. I don't need T or an operation to pass,I live my life how I want.

I have no body clock ticking,no yearning to embrace my womanhood .. I get told I should be a feminist .. That I should embrace it .. That people died for women's vote etc etc ..

People have died all the way through history,over race,religion,orientation,disability and war !!

I am thankful for stonewall for what my gay ancestors went through in history ..

There is always going to be someone who wants you dead .. Or someone who hates you .. Or someone you will never see eye to eye with.

But ain't that life ?

[afixer]

it's happened enough to me at my current address that i'm considering moving.

[dykeumentary]

Very interesting thread. Here is my possibly triggering reply.

I have been attacked several times in my life, and one aspect of this that i don't think has been covered in this thread is how class intersects with violence against butches. I have had many dirty, hard, physical labor jobs, and so dress in work clothes that appear to be "gender non-conforming" even if that's what makes sense for that kind of work. Also, I am out as a butch lesbian. This has enraged many working class guys to the point of wanted to harm me. Because of the financial circumstances at different times in my life, environmental conditions were advantageous to men who wanted to hurt or kill me (physical isolation from someone who might help, noisy industrial places where my yells for help couldnt be heard, not enough light to see who the people were, co-workers afraid to lose their jobs in support of me, etc.) For example, I have been beaten at construction sites where I worked, and also beaten as I had to walk home late at night (bus lines had stopped). Being a poor woman is just more dangerous generally. There is no heirarchy of oppression; its just that 'the way things are' makes poor women more vulnerable physically, and then they have fewer options for there to be support, or even legal recourse after the attacks. Heaven help the poor _________ . (fill in the blank with your favorite deviant).

(Side note: Domestic worker rights are queer rights -- Congrats to domestic workers for the victories lately!)

And here's an odd one: Once I was getting beaten up, the men were hitting and kicking me and yelling "fucking dyke!" the whole time. Some men came running over to help, and because of them the attackers were arrested. The police report of the incident (that I had to sign while strapped to a back/neck board in the hospital) didn't include any of that language from during the attack. I asked the officer, and he said "I didn't want to embarass your family." Go figure.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=dykeumentary;348945]Very interesting thread. Here is my possibly triggering reply.

I have been attacked several times in my life, and one aspect of this that i don't think has been covered in this thread is how class intersects with violence against butches. I have had many dirty, hard, physical labor jobs, and so dress in work clothes that appear to be "gender non-conforming" even if that's what makes sense for that kind of work. Also, I am out as a butch lesbian. This has enraged many working class guys to the point of wanted to harm me. Because of the financial circumstances at different times in my life, environmental conditions were advantageous to men who wanted to hurt or kill me (physical isolation from someone who might help, noisy industrial places where my yells for help couldnt be heard, not enough light to see who the people were, co-workers afraid to lose their jobs in support of me, etc.) For example, I have been beaten at construction sites where I worked, and also beaten as I had to walk home late at night (bus lines had stopped). Being a poor woman is just more dangerous generally. There is no heirarchy of oppression; its just that 'the way things are' makes poor women more vulnerable physically, and then they have fewer options for there to be support, or even legal recourse after the attacks. Heaven help the poor _________ . (fill in the blank with your favorite deviant).

(Side note: Domestic worker rights are queer rights -- Congrats to domestic workers for the victories lately!)

And here's an odd one: Once I was getting beaten up, the men were hitting and kicking me and yelling "fucking dyke!" the whole time. Some men came running over to help, and because of them the attackers were arrested. The police report of the incident (that I had to sign while strapped to a back/neck board in the hospital) didn't include any of that language from during the attack. I asked the officer, and he said "I didn't want to embarass your family." Go figure.[/QUOTE]

Shit!

Class seems to be forgotten often in our discussions, I think. Time we changed this.

[asphaltcowboi]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Very interesting thread. Here is my possibly triggering reply.

I have been attacked several times in my life, and one aspect of this that i don't think has been covered in this thread is how class intersects with violence against butches. I have had many dirty, hard, physical labor jobs, and so dress in work clothes that appear to be "gender non-conforming" even if that's what makes sense for that kind of work. Also, I am out as a butch lesbian. This has enraged many working class guys to the point of wanted to harm me. Because of the financial circumstances at different times in my life, environmental conditions were advantageous to men who wanted to hurt or kill me (physical isolation from someone who might help, noisy industrial places where my yells for help couldnt be heard, not enough light to see who the people were, co-workers afraid to lose their jobs in support of me, etc.) For example, I have been beaten at construction sites where I worked, and also beaten as I had to walk home late at night (bus lines had stopped). Being a poor woman is just more dangerous generally. There is no heirarchy of oppression; its just that 'the way things are' makes poor women more vulnerable physically, and then they have fewer options for there to be support, or even legal recourse after the attacks. Heaven help the poor _________ . (fill in the blank with your favorite deviant).

(Side note: Domestic worker rights are queer rights -- Congrats to domestic workers for the victories lately!)

And here's an odd one: Once I was getting beaten up, the men were hitting and kicking me and yelling "fucking dyke!" the whole time. Some men came running over to help, and because of them the attackers were arrested. The police report of the incident (that I had to sign while strapped to a back/neck board in the hospital) didn't include any of that language from during the attack. I asked the officer, and he said "I didn't want to embarass your family." Go figure.

i would like to add a little to this great post.. it has seemed to me beeing a butch that has always worked in male dom fields it seemed the better i was at my job the more i would be bashed/targeted by my male co-workers.
i dont think its quite as bad today as it was in my bar curousing days but gay establishments were always in back alleys in bad neiborhoods. witch made us easy targets for haters.

[Heart]

Ender - you misread me and misread my use of the word experience. I am talking about the attacker's perspective and its relationship to rape as a tool of power and control. You either don't see that or you wish to continue engaging about something that I am not referencing. If you wish to discuss the victim's identity and the impact rape has on that, as well as critique "Boys Don't Cry," fine - go ahead. That's a worthy discussion. However, it is unrelated to what I was saying.

Further, your implication that I am somehow the aggressor when I discuss the rape of female bodies and the attempted obliteration by the rapist of whatever identity may be housed in that body, reads as shifting accountability away from the rapist to me. Fuck that.

This is the last I will engage with you on this topic.

I will also bow out of this thread so as to stop taking space from those butches and folks sharing their experiences of violation. Peace and safety for all is my fervent wish.

Heart

[Andrew, Jr.]

Yes, I have been physically & verbally assulted by not only the straight community but the glbt community as well. One day I will have peace. Some people think its funny or cute to gossip as well. They have no idea of how the words they speak hurt someone, and those around them.