Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Kobi

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The last piece here is from a conversation I had recently with a Femme who didnt seem to quite get why I as a female id butch was having trouble with any of this.

Feel free to add on here.

As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question.
As a female id butch, I customarily do.

i have -- because i am a lesbian.

As a femme, she will always be a femme.
As a female identified butch lesbian, I am thrown into a pot with males. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with males and heterosexuality.

All lesbians are given the you are not a real woman shit.

]

As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man.


i am frequently. i am apple shaped. i am also an androgynous femme. Lots of STRAIGHT women get mistaken for men too.

As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man.

Bullshit. i am a dyke. i was told that many times by ignorant people. i was told i just couldn't accept my femininity or my place in the world as a woman.


As a femme, she will never be too feminine.

HUH??? How many femmes have been ignored or ridiculed by dykes for their femininity?????

------------------------------------------

[Heart]

Kobi - I don't think I get how your breakdown of the different experiences of femmes and butches is related to the discussion at hand -- (and I have some issues with what you posted), but I do agree that because queer femme identities are not parsed/policed in quite the same manner as butch identities, femmes have not had to deal with the same internal divisions in queer spaces. The post I linked to above speaks to this in more detail.

Heart

[Heart]

As I said, butches are facing unique challenges in terms of the divisions and power struggles currently surfacing between women/female folk and trans-masculine folk. But i couldn't quite let the list below stand.

"As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question."
I have my queerness called into question routinely.

"As a femme, she can blend into the mainstream without question."
"Passing" involves risk and erasure. It's called invisibility and it's oppressive.

"As a femme, there is no male telling her the new label of choice is less than masculine".
Femmes are female and are subjected to male domination in various forms.

"As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man."
I will be mistaken for straight.

"As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man."
I will be told I just haven't had the right man give it to me good.

"As a femme, she will never be too feminine."
My femininity will be objectified.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by from BV site

"Is BUTCH Voices trying to tell me how I identify, what if I am BUTCH and not Masculine of Center?
(answer)-No, BUTCH Voices affirms the ability for each person to self-identify in a way that fits them best. When BUTCH Voices uses the term Masculine of Center (MoC) the intention is to quickly and succinctly summarize who we are at large. For many in our community, the label BUTCH is not inclusive, but we all unite at our 2nd National Conference under the big BUTCH Voices tent, because of our shared experiences."

If Butch wasn't good enough to "quickly and succinctly summarize who we are" why the hell is it called butchvoices? And what makes "masculine of center" any kind of a better summary especially for women ID Female ID Butches, a lot of Tomboys and the like... or even flamer butches etc etc etc etc etc etc.....? My Dad on the other hand might enjoy the conference, since he'd fit the bill "masculine of center" I'd think better than tons butches for crap sake...

I mean hmmm, duh, it fit a few better who had the ability to change it... I mean seriously, c'mon. Seems like a personal issue of a few that's been thrust upon everyone else... and who loses... the same ppl who've been losing all along.

Sry for jumping in out of nowhere and blahing all over the place but damn, pisses me off... :/

[BullDog]

I know right Metro.

Not to mention saying that butch is not inclusive and then saying they are going to unite under the big butch tent doesn't make any sense to me. Isn't their big tent Masculine of Center?

[BullDog]

Well, there's a letter posted from Joe today:

http://www.butchvoices.com/letter-from-founder

In my opinion they aren't listening. They've chosen an umbrella term that may not fit everyone, but they think this is the best way to move forward. According to him, the reason people have left is due to personality conflicts or because the work is exhausting, and that butch women and female identified butches have always been a part of Butch Voices.

My opinion: they weren't listening 2 years ago. They aren't listening now. You are welcome as a butch woman or female identified butch if you accept their terms and the way they run things. Same for anyone else under the "Butch Voices Umbrella."

[Dude]

I am glad some of this is getting discussed.

I ,as a butch have no idea what it's like to be a femme who looks
straight out in mainstream so I liken it to being seen as a straight man
by the general public at Lowe's for example.Where I currently work.
I dont want to be a straight man.
Who I am is the first butch (woman)
ever to work in assembly. Or back in my 20's, the first butch (woman)
to be hired as a groundskeeper for a school district. Every job I have ever
had has been in a male dominated field.
I want to be seen.
This is me. I am a butch. This has always been me.


In a thread about a month ago someone described butch -as a stopping point.
Really? really.
To what?
The ultimate male? huh?
I have the correct amount of T for me,already.


This is hard for me because I sit on the fence somewhere between tg and butch.
Best way I can think to describe it.
Male pronouns feel like they fit easier than she's and her's but I cant take that
too far as to not live in the reality that I am indeed having a case of
raging butch menopause.

I stopped correcting people because it became the majority who see me as "Sir".
The people that do >see< me for me, are very appreciated.

Femme's who are into butch's have always been the one's to make me feel
accepted and ok just how I am.
I appreciate you femme's who are here saying butch's are still ok.
I'm old ,I'm a butch and I think it's much more than just a stopping place.

[Dude]

How weird is this ,to (now) feel like a minority
in a place that has butch in the title.

I am grateful it is there for sure but the lean
or shifting to all things male is fairly significant
based upon the support (or lack of it ) in this thread.

Can we be allies without being squashed out at a later
date when we arent quite as needed?
I fucking hope so.
To me it feels competitive almost.

I wish I had a better way to explain it.

[Martina]

i am offended by that. THat part about feminine women always having a place in queerdom. How many femme posts do you have to read to hear a story about a femme who was alienated from a lesbian gathering because of her femininity. It may be the most commonly shared narrative among femmes.

i also am not loved by all transmen or feminine lesbians or even all butches. Many transmen date men. i have heard a few ridicule femmes with the "ewwww" attitude. And femmes have given me that same "eww" because i date femmes. Yadda yadda.

COME ON. Jeez. i am pretty annoyed.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Heart

Kobi - I don't think I get how your breakdown of the different experiences of femmes and butches is related to the discussion at hand -- (and I have some issues with what you posted), but I do agree that because queer femme identities are not parsed/policed in quite the same manner as butch identities, femmes have not had to deal with the same internal divisions in queer spaces. The post I linked to above in speaks to this in more detail.

Heart

Heart,

My point, and I probably didnt pick the best avenue for it, is simply that female id lesbian butches are being inundated with and pushed out of the picture by male/masculine.

Your suggestion for organizing around issues rather than identities makes a lot of sense to me. These commonalities are less explosive and more global in nature.

I dont understand this:

"And make no mistake, lesbians of the 70s had a hand in pushing butches out of women's communities. This is one of the failures/faults of the lesbian-feminist movement."

I was a lesbian of the 70's. I didnt see "butches" being pushed out of the womens communities. I did see "male id's" being pushed out and it seemed to make sense to me. I did see the lesbian feminist community become less traditionally defined i.e. less butch-femme/heteronormative imitation kind of thing in favor of a more woman defined forms of existence.

I dont understand how it was a failure/fault of the lesbian-feminist movement to pursue a lesbian-feminist defined existence. Is it because we didnt think including men/male/non-female masculine into a lesbian thing was a wise thing to do? Please explain.

Could you also explain what "butch is now seen as too female" means? To me, I like that butch seems to female. Then give butch back to the females. If non females are more comfortable with masculine of center, that's fine. Just dont ask me to be that.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I dont understand this:

"And make no mistake, lesbians of the 70s had a hand in pushing butches out of women's communities. This is one of the failures/faults of the lesbian-feminist movement."

I dont understand how it was a failure/fault of the lesbian-feminist movement to pursue a lesbian-feminist defined existence. Is it because we didnt think including men/male/non-female masculine into a lesbian thing was a wise thing to do? Please explain.

Could you also explain what "butch is now seen as too female" means? To me, I like that butch seems to female. Then give butch back to the females. If non females are more comfortable with masculine of center, that's fine. Just dont ask me to be that.

I'm not talking about guarding women's space, I'm referring to lesbian-feminists who conflated masculinity with male and proceeded to push out women who were "too masculine." They also alienated women who were too feminine (femmes), seeing them as tools of the patriarchy, rather than as empowered queers.

As for the other statement, I meant that male-identified queer organizers may be replacing "butch" with "MoC" because they feel that butch is "too female" of an identity to be inclusive. That is not how I feel.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Heart

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by Heart

I'm not talking about guarding women's space, I'm referring to lesbian-feminists who conflated masculinity with male and proceeded to push out women who were "too masculine." They also alienated women who were too feminine (femmes), seeing them as tools of the patriarchy, rather than as empowered queers.

As for the other statement, I meant that male-identified queer organizers may be replacing "butch" with "MoC" because they feel that butch is "too female" of an identity to be inclusive. That is not how I feel.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Heart

You are so right about this! I have posted that I was very active in NOW until they pushed the lesbians out but then I tried to become more active in lesbian rights groups and my GF @ the time who was also femme (heh, it was before I realized it was butches that rang my chimes) anyway we walked into a meeting one time and a couple of the andro lesbians looked at us and snickered, "huh, I think you two are in the wrong meeting- this one is for lesbians"! They all had big laugh and my GF and I felt really embarrassed".

I didn't fit in with the straight women and didn't even fit in with lesbians!

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Heart

I'm not talking about guarding women's space, I'm referring to lesbian-feminists who conflated masculinity with male and proceeded to push out women who were "too masculine." They also alienated women who were too feminine (femmes), seeing them as tools of the patriarchy, rather than as empowered queers.

As for the other statement, I meant that male-identified queer organizers may be replacing "butch" with "MoC" because they feel that butch is "too female" of an identity to be inclusive. That is not how I feel.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Heart

Heart,

Bear with me while I try and ferret something out in my head here.

From what I am understanding, you are saying the exclusion of what was perceived as extremes in the lesbian/feminist movement (i.e. conflating masculinity with male and pushing out women who were too masculine, and alienating women who were too feminine, seeing them as tools of the patriarchy rather than empowered queers) was a failure/fault of the lesbian/feminist movement.

Is it possible, that the leadership back in the 70's knew in order to successfully rebel against the patriarchy and to establish women and lesbian on women and lesbian terms, they had to remove elements that represented and reinforced the very thing they were fighting against?

Is it possible, that the leadership saw or intuited something they didnt have words for i.e. the gender/identity issues we struggle with now?

Is it possible, they saw or intuited these gender/identity issues and the ways in which they could manifest themselves, as something detrimental to what they were trying to set a platform for i.e. to allow women and lesbians to develop what they felt was best for them?

Is it possible, that they knew a strong matriarchial foundation was needed to withstand future attempts to infiltrate/dismantle/alter it by an insidious, pervasive, and dominant patriarchial, heteronormal ideology?

Is it possible, they knew, without a strong matriarchial foundation, the greatest threat to existence and success could and would come from within?

Given the things we now face, which have been amply described throughout this discussion, it is possible in retrospect, that what is seen as a failure/fault of the lesbian/feminist movement was, in actuality, very prophetic and visionary?

This just keeps floating around in my head and I'm trying to get a handle on it. Thoughts? Ideas? Commentary?

[Heart]

Kobi - The exclusion of butches and femmes by some (not all) lesbian feminists was/is based upon un-examined and internalized misogyny and homophobia.

You said: Is it possible, they saw or intuited these gender/identity issues and the ways in which they could manifest themselves, as something detrimental to what they were trying to set a platform for i.e. to allow women and lesbians to develop what they felt was best for them?

Butches and femmes ARE women and lesbians.

That is my answer to each of your points above. There is the mistaken idea that butch/femme are not female/lesbian identities -- and therefore lesbian-feminists must guard against them. But they ARE, always have been, and they always will be female and lesbian identities. This is exactly the point that is being made by butches and femmes here in this thread and elsewhere in these broader discussions.

You cannot claim or appropriate butch/femme from women and lesbians.

I understand your points, and the threats that lesbian-feminists faced politically and socially were very real. Some of what they did was visionary and world-changing, some of it short-sighted or steeped in bais. Many lesbian-feminist circles were racist and did not include the voices, visions, or needs of women of color. Many were also opposed to leather dykes and queer women in kink communities. Point being - they had their limitations - as do all movements.

Heart

[Toughy]

Butches (and femmes) ARE women and lesbians.

It should be telling to anyone that if Jack, Bully and myself felt unheard and left the steering committe that something is truly wrong with the picture. My beef had to do with including 'trans' as a target audience rather than an ally. I knew then that butch lesbian women were going to be shoved aside and that masculinity and male would be the end focus.

I can't even finish reading Joe's statements because my head will explode. They really need to change the name to 'Masculine of Center Voices' because to call it 'Butch Voices' is an outright lie.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Heart

Kobi - The exclusion of butches and femmes by some (not all) lesbian feminists was/is based upon un-examined and internalized misogyny and homophobia.

You said: Is it possible, they saw or intuited these gender/identity issues and the ways in which they could manifest themselves, as something detrimental to what they were trying to set a platform for i.e. to allow women and lesbians to develop what they felt was best for them?

Butches and femmes ARE women and lesbians.

That is my answer to each of your points above. There is the mistaken idea that butch/femme are not female/lesbian identities -- and therefore lesbian-feminists must guard against them. But they ARE, always have been, and they always will be female and lesbian identities. This is exactly the point that is being made by butches and femmes here in this thread and elsewhere in these broader discussions.

You cannot claim or appropriate butch/femme from women and lesbians.

I understand your points, and the threats that lesbian-feminists faced politically and socially were very real. Some of what they did was visionary and world-changing, some of it short-sighted or steeped in bais. Many lesbian-feminist circles were racist and did not include the voices, visions, or needs of women of color. Many were also opposed to leather dykes and queer women in kink communities. Point being - they had their limitations - as do all movements.

Heart

Heart,

Thank you.

My best recollection is what occured 40 years ago in my own, isolated corner of the world. I do remember complexities with male id's and those engaged in what was perceived as traditional male/female dynamics.

Must factor in your thoughts to everything else floating around my head.